Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[fire4effect]

46 minutes ago, DirkDiggler said:

I'm pretty sure North Vietnam wasn't producing it's own SA-2s/3s/23mm/37mm/57mm/85mm.  We didn't "send the Russians a nuke".  Karma is a bitch.  Russian soldiers wouldn't be dying if Putin would have stayed on his side of the border; she should take her case up with him.

Completely agree. She should but I doubt she will. Unfortunately, her perception is based on what she's seen in her media and the trauma of losing a close family member. I can only imagine what it would be like to lose any of my children and the rage I would feel. To paraphrase as I do occasionally from a movie Quantum of Solace "I think you are so blinded by inconsolable rage you don't care who you hurt" kind of sums it up. Who is easier for the family to blame us or them? Right or wrong doesn't come into it. This is where I see it getting really dangerous.

[Hunter Rose]

19 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

I'm pretty sure North Vietnam wasn't producing it's own SA-2s/3s/23mm/37mm/57mm/85mm.  We didn't "send the Russians a nuke".  Karma is a bitch.  Russian soldiers wouldn't be dying if Putin would have stayed on his side of the border; she should take her case up with him.

Also let's not forget the Mig-15s piloted by actual Russian pilots in Korea. 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Hunter Rose

[BFM this]

https://www.axios.com/boris-johnson-ukraine-zelensky-2283122f-3d5a-487a-91df-95eb62d81f5b.html

I'm going to guess that some very top-shelf and seldom used UK capes were dusted off in order to arrange this meeting.

Ballzy, Boris, ballzy indeed.

[Danger41]

Part of me thinks that’s awesome but another part of me thinks JFC that’s stupid. Same as when the Polish, Slovenian, and Czech PM’s visited. Something happens and they get fragged and bam, Article 5. 

[FLEA]

7 hours ago, Danger41 said:

Part of me thinks that’s awesome but another part of me thinks JFC that’s stupid. Same as when the Polish, Slovenian, and Czech PM’s visited. Something happens and they get fragged and bam, Article 5. 

It's my guess there were some background phone calls that made it very clear heads of state would be there and where they would be. (To Russia) Sounds bizarre but I saw some similar coordination when Trump visited the DPRK. Generally sovereign states have a common interests in protecting heads of state. Especially authoritarian ones like Russia and DPRK. Those dudes already sleep with one eye open. No reason to give people the belief that political assassination is suddenly ok. (For heads of state)

But if you really want my opinion of how weak article 5 is in its current state, even if BJ was mortared in Kyiv, I don't think you would get the consensus for an article 5. There would be states argueing exactly what you said. "Well.... He provoked it, common sense says don't go to a warzone." 

Edited April 10, 2022 by FLEA

[FLEA]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/04/bill-clinton-nato-expansion-ukraine/629499/

 

Interesting article by Bill Clinton about his time working with Putin. While I don't 100% agree with him I respect the weight of his office. Dude had some tough decisions to make and it seems like he attempted them in good faith. 

[DirkDiggler]

2 hours ago, FLEA said:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/04/bill-clinton-nato-expansion-ukraine/629499/

 

Interesting article by Bill Clinton about his time working with Putin. While I don't 100% agree with him I respect the weight of his office. Dude had some tough decisions to make and it seems like he attempted them in good faith. 

Good article, thanks for posting.

[Sua Sponte]

https://twitter.com/rshereme/status/1513274193600819205?s=20&t=SjLEhMzuhxY7Abmbu1FEFQ
 

Russia bombed cisterns with nitric acid in the city of Rubizhne (Luhansk region). They turned Ukrainian factory into a chemical weapon against Ukrainian people.

[DirkDiggler]

  Ukrainians got a good strike on a Russian ammunition depot

[Prosuper]

Some reports coming out from Ukrainian authorities that chemical weapons being used in Mariupol, new Russian General in charge is a real evil bastard. Does this change anything?  'Butcher of Syria' leading next phase of Russia's Ukraine war (nypost.com)

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Prosuper
content

[SurelySerious]

Some reports coming out from Ukrainian authorities that chemical weapons being used in Mariupol, new Russian General in charge is a real evil bastard. Does this change anything?

I haven’t seen any actual chemical weapon reports lately, but they de facto tried by hitting a storage facility for like 4 tons of nitric acid (totally nasty for people)…except the wind blew it back over the russian positions. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Although, they’ll probably just use it as the narrative that Ukrainians used chem weapons against them. 4-D chess.

[FLEA]

24 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

I haven’t seen any actual chemical weapon reports lately, but they de facto tried by hitting a storage facility for like 4 tons of nitric acid (totally nasty for people)…except the wind blew it back over the russian positions. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Although, they’ll probably just use it as the narrative that Ukrainians used chem weapons against them. 4-D chess.

Nitric acid is a key component to making certain explosives which is why Russia probably attacked it. TnT is made chiefly with nitric acid, as well as amoniom nitrate fertilizer which is what was used in the OKC bombing. 

Kind of a similar thing with the rail terminal that was just hit. Shitty a bunch of civilians died but rail terminals are pretty important military targets. 

Again, not saying it doesn't suck civilians died, but it's not a crime to hit logistics terminals and explosive supply chain factories in a war. We need to focus on the stuff that has more substance like shooting bound prisoners, rape, etc... 

[SurelySerious]

Nitric acid is a key component to making certain explosives which is why Russia probably attacked it. TnT is made chiefly with nitric acid, as well as amoniom nitrate fertilizer which is what was used in the OKC bombing. 
Kind of a similar thing with the rail terminal that was just hit. Shitty a bunch of civilians died but rail terminals are pretty important military targets. 
Again, not saying it doesn't suck civilians died, but it's not a crime to hit logistics terminals and explosive supply chain factories in a war. We need to focus on the stuff that has more substance like shooting bound prisoners, rape, etc... 

You pick some weird takes to apologize about Russia with.

[brickhistory]

All my life I have read military history, including a lot of WWII stuff.  Well, duh...

Reading the accounts of the mass, systemic literal raping of everything that moved once Ivan moved into Germany, I kinda figured it was just some sick payback for the Nazis killing millions of your countrymen/women/children.

I was wrong.  Seems its cultural.  Too many stories of low-ranking Ivans doing really heinous things in a war they started. 

[Prosuper]

1 hour ago, brickhistory said:

All my life I have read military history, including a lot of WWII stuff.  Well, duh...

Reading the accounts of the mass, systemic literal raping of everything that moved once Ivan moved into Germany, I kinda figured it was just some sick payback for the Nazis killing millions of your countrymen/women/children.

I was wrong.  Seems its cultural.  Too many stories of low-ranking Ivans doing really heinous things in a war they started. 

My family emigrated to the US in 1868 to Wisconsin, they stayed in touch with the family still living in Pomerania, which in 1868 was in Prussia since there was no Germany until after they beat the French in the Franco Prussian war. They lost touch in 1939, after 45 my aunt was stationed in Berlin as an interpreter, her Wisconsin German was a challenge talking to Wehrmacht officers. She made inquiries since our family ancestral home was east of the Oder River and now part of Poland. She later found out they were scattered or dead, the Russians and Poles most likely got payback. Mass graves were found later when guys who go around with metal detectors looking for battlefield relics found mass graves of German civilians. The largest ethnic cleansing ever, for centuries German speaking people lived all over eastern Europe and others who moved in after the Wehrmacht took over, after they lost the Soviets said start walking west or the shot them on sight. Since in the late 40's nobody had not much sympathy for Germans taking it in the shorts, so the Soviets went buck wild on German girls. If you were a German POW being held by the Russians, they got taken care of about as well or worse than Americans being held by the Japanese. 

[FLEA]

6 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

You pick some weird takes to apologize about Russia with.

Because I want to ensure international norms and consistency are met so that they don't come back to haunt us? 

Buddy I get it, you don't like Russia and you want to hate everything about them and everything they do. That's an emotional argument. Approach one from logic. Elevate shit that can rightfully be criticized under current ethical frameworks. That's how you build an international coalition. Not by nitpicking shit that we want to do ourselves later. In the next year we might be at war with Russia and I dont want to see people coming after us because we struck rail terminals and explosives factories, things commonly held under conventional wisdom as being valid military targets? 

Or are you just going to plead hypocrisy at that point and say "well it's ok when we do it." That doesn't go over well on the international stage. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by FLEA

[FLEA]

4 hours ago, brickhistory said:

All my life I have read military history, including a lot of WWII stuff.  Well, duh...

Reading the accounts of the mass, systemic literal raping of everything that moved once Ivan moved into Germany, I kinda figured it was just some sick payback for the Nazis killing millions of your countrymen/women/children.

I was wrong.  Seems its cultural.  Too many stories of low-ranking Ivans doing really heinous things in a war they started. 

There is a large degree of culture behind it. One of the mainstream criticisms of Just War Theory that most LOAC conventions is built on is it has a very heavy Christian foundation. JWT requires the double effect doctrine Thomas Aquinas derived to justify Christian acceptable homicide. I think what we've found is that's caused a slant in how some people interpret some of those conventions. 

 

[FLEA]

2 hours ago, Prosuper said:

My family emigrated to the US in 1868 to Wisconsin, they stayed in touch with the family still living in Pomerania, which in 1868 was in Prussia since there was no Germany until after they beat the French in the Franco Prussian war. They lost touch in 1939, after 45 my aunt was stationed in Berlin as an interpreter, her Wisconsin German was a challenge talking to Wehrmacht officers. She made inquiries since our family ancestral home was east of the Oder River and now part of Poland. She later found out they were scattered or dead, the Russians and Poles most likely got payback. Mass graves were found later when guys who go around with metal detectors looking for battlefield relics found mass graves of German civilians. The largest ethnic cleansing ever, for centuries German speaking people lived all over eastern Europe and others who moved in after the Wehrmacht took over, after they lost the Soviets said start walking west or the shot them on sight. Since in the late 40's nobody had not much sympathy for Germans taking it in the shorts, so the Soviets went buck wild on German girls. If you were a German POW being held by the Russians, they got taken care of about as well or worse than Americans being held by the Japanese. 

Doesn't surprise me. One of the "other approaches to history" is that Japan didn't surrender to the US because of the atomic bombs, but because they feared a surrender to the soviets more. 

[Prozac]

8 hours ago, FLEA said:

Kind of a similar thing with the rail terminal that was just hit. Shitty a bunch of civilians died but rail terminals are pretty important military targets. 

You realize there is a difference between a major passenger station and a marshaling yard where war related material and equipment are being prepared for movement to the front, right? While I agree the latter is a legitimate military target, it’s kind of hard to argue that a station full of fleeing civilians is a legitimate target or one that has any military value other than attempting to terrorize a population into submission. 

[FLEA]

4 minutes ago, Prozac said:

You realize there is a difference between a major passenger station and a marshaling yard where war related material and equipment are being prepared for movement to the front, right? While I agree the latter is a legitimate military target, it’s kind of hard to argue that a station full of fleeing civilians is a legitimate target or one that has any military value other than attempting to terrorize a population into submission. 

Depends on the station and the setup. I don't know enough about the particular one struck but have seen enough that I'm hesitant to throw the outrage flag yet. Lots of terminals are used to move personnel and usually the main body housing for the administrative enterprise is stationed in the terminal. Was not uncommon in Korea to see terminals filled with conscripts mobilizing to their duty stations. Seen that a few times in Europe as well but in a slightly different manner. I get it we want to be outraged but let's try and use our expertise on these things to keep it focused on what matters most.

I don't have any particular soft spot for Russia or the Russian people. Could care less. But I've been doing this long enough to realize war is shitty and lots of innocent people die in it. That's just what it is. Most wars are not the kid glove "winning hearts and minds" counterinsurgency bullshit weve been doing the last 20 years. They are total wars, meaning the totality of the society participates. 

 

 

[SurelySerious]

Because I want to ensure international norms and consistency are met so that they don't come back to haunt us? 
Buddy I get it, you don't like Russia and you want to hate everything about them and everything they do. That's an emotional argument. Approach one from logic. Elevate shit that can rightfully be criticized under current ethical frameworks. That's how you build an international coalition. Not by nitpicking shit that we want to do ourselves later. In the next year we might be at war with Russia and I dont want to see people coming after us because we struck rail terminals and explosives factories, things commonly held under conventional wisdom as being valid military targets? 
Or are you just going to plead hypocrisy at that point and say "well it's ok when we do it." That doesn't go over well on the international stage. 

Predictable. Do you mean the international norm of invading a sovereign nation without cause?

[ecugringo]

14 hours ago, brickhistory said:

All my life I have read military history, including a lot of WWII stuff.  Well, duh...

Reading the accounts of the mass, systemic literal raping of everything that moved once Ivan moved into Germany, I kinda figured it was just some sick payback for the Nazis killing millions of your countrymen/women/children.

I was wrong.  Seems its cultural.  Too many stories of low-ranking Ivans doing really heinous things in a war they started. 

I remember reading about a town in Eastern Germany where the Wermacht retreated and left the civilian population at the mercy of the Reds.  Thousands committed suicide vs the oncoming rape/murder that awaited them.  I recall families jumping into a river together tied to rocks.  Just hard to fathom.  The brutality against the Berliners is pretty hard to read.  Then again so is the siege of Leningrad.  The Serbs share commonality with the Russians.  THey used Rape and torture as a weapon.

Isnt Zelensky Jewish?  Cant really defend the neo nazi claim by Putin if thats the case.

I have a contractor finishing work on my property.  He's a Pole in his 60's.  He was telling me his father was in a Soviet camp in WW2.  According to him, the Ukraines that joined the SS were pretty a pretty nasty group and very feared against everyone espicially the Soviets.  Many crimes were at their hands.  An Elijah wood movie "Everything is Illuminated" hints at this.  Anyway....According to the contractor there is a deep hatred vs the Ukrainians from WW2 in Russia.

[FLEA]

4 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

Predictable. Do you mean the international norm of invading a sovereign nation without cause?

Yes, because jus ad bellum is separate from jus ad bello. So it doesn't matter how bullshit the reasons for the war are, the conduct of the combatants is only viewed in an independent lense. It's an important norm for us because there are a lot of countries that believe our 2003 invasion of Iraq had unlawful jus ad bellum. However, we generally don't like armies that believe they can protest their government because they don't like the reason for the war. Do they not still teach this in ACSC? There are reasons we want officers to blindly follow some orders (specifically, the one to fight the war) but not others (as in how to fight the war). Preserving a civilian led military is one of them. 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by FLEA

[FLEA]

3 hours ago, ecugringo said:

I remember reading about a town in Eastern Germany where the Wermacht retreated and left the civilian population at the mercy of the Reds.  Thousands committed suicide vs the oncoming rape/murder that awaited them.  I recall families jumping into a river together tied to rocks.  Just hard to fathom.  The brutality against the Berliners is pretty hard to read.  Then again so is the siege of Leningrad.  The Serbs share commonality with the Russians.  THey used Rape and torture as a weapon.

Isnt Zelensky Jewish?  Cant really defend the neo nazi claim by Putin if thats the case.

I have a contractor finishing work on my property.  He's a Pole in his 60's.  He was telling me his father was in a Soviet camp in WW2.  According to him, the Ukraines that joined the SS were pretty a pretty nasty group and very feared against everyone espicially the Soviets.  Many crimes were at their hands.  An Elijah wood movie "Everything is Illuminated" hints at this.  Anyway....According to the contractor there is a deep hatred vs the Ukrainians from WW2 in Russia.

Yeah so I was reading a pros on how Russia is justifying this earlier and it's a bit weird and total bullshit. It's very ethnocentric and highly genocidal in general. 

Basically it recognizes all western European culture as fascist by nature. They are focusing on the political aspect of Naziism and not the racial aspect. So they see all of Europe as significantly right and authoritative and they argue Ukraine and Russia are the same ethnic people based on the shared use of Cyrodillic language. They then go on to say that European fascist/extremist are actively attempting to cleanse Russian culture/identity/heritage from Ukraine by upholding western values and demeaning Russian ones. It's totally bizarre and bullshit. 

It's a stupid stance though because Russia was the one that allowed Ukraine autonomy on the first place, but even prior to that, treated Ukranians as second class citizens while apart of the Soviet Union. 

[waveshaper]

"Russia says flagship of Black Sea fleet badly damaged by blast | Reuters" 

This story just hit the news about 45 minutes ago. There are two versions of what happened (TBD) but either way it sounds like this Russian Flagship is probably toast/artificial reef material. "The Neptune (Ukrainian: Р-360 «Нептун», romanized: R-360 "Neptun") is a Ukrainian anti-ship cruise missile. The system entered service with the Ukrainian Navy in March 2021 and has a 330lb Warhead"

"Russia on Thursday said the flagship of its Black Sea fleet was seriously damaged and its crew evacuated following a fire that caused an explosion, as a Ukrainian official said the vessel had been hit by missiles."

"The incident on the Moskva missile cruiser occurred after ammunition on board blew up, Interfax news agency quoted the Russian defence ministry as saying."

 

"Maksym Marchenko, governor of the region around the Black Sea port of Odesa, said in an online post that the 12,500 tonne ship was hit by two missiles, without providing evidence.

"Neptune missiles guarding the Black Sea caused very serious damage," he said in an online post."

etc:

Russia says flagship of Black Sea fleet badly damaged by blast | Reuters

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by waveshaper