Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[BashiChuni]

15 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I don't think it's in our interests to sit back while large countries invade smaller ones.

such a poor argument. countries invade other countries all the time. it's not our interest to be involved in policing these actions. fuck man our track record post WWII has been a disaster

[DirkDiggler]

  Good video of Russians burning courtesy of Her Majesty.

[BashiChuni]

18 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I don't think it's in our interests to sit back while large countries invade smaller ones.

and if you think that way you better be prepared to go all the way with a full blown US/Russia war. are you down for that mr. tough talk guy? cause one miscalculation and it's on. you ready for it? willing to trade a few nukes back and forth for Ukraine?

a country NONE of you bozos cared about jan 1st?

 

such reckless thinking from you.

Edited April 26, 2022 by BashiChuni

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

and if you think that way you better be prepared to go all the way with a full blown US/Russia war. are you down for that mr. tough talk guy? cause one miscalculation and it's on. you ready for it? willing to trade a few nukes back and forth for Ukraine?

a country NONE of you bozos cared about jan 1st?

 

such reckless thinking from you.

After watching Russias conventional military, I'm not convinced they can get their nukes airborne.

[Blue]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

nukes

Yup, that there is the rub, isn't it.

They don't need to get all their nukes airborne to cause a big ruckus.  Or even some of their nukes.

They just need one.

[Hunter Rose]

The fear of nuclear escalation will ALWAYS be there. However, at some point we'll have to face Russia and China and demonstrate where the line is. To me, Russia did us the favor by invading Ukraine. Now is the time to teach them a lesson.  One that hopefully China pays attention to and learns at the same time.  The West and the free world seem to be waking up to the fact that Russia and China are not our friends, and welcoming them into and allowing them to reap the benefits of the free world will do nothing to assuage them.

Put simpler: F@&k Russia, and F@&k China.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Hunter Rose

[Pooter]

Considering they just tested an ICBM.. pretty sure they can get some nukes airborne. Obviously we are all happy to see Russia display massive incompetence, but that doesn't mean we can write off all of their nuclear capes because they can't effectively coordinate the ground invasion of a whole country. 
 

While it sucks for Ukraine, the status quo (without escalation) is actually pretty good for us right now. Keep funneling weapons, chipping away at russias military/reputation/world standing all while milking this absolute intel goldmine. 

[Pooter]

7 minutes ago, Hunter Rose said:

The fear of nuclear escalation will ALWAYS be there. However, at some point we'll have to face Russia and China and demonstrate where the line is. To me, Russia did us the favor by invading Ukraine. Now is the time to teach them a lesson.  One that hopefully China pays attention to and learns at the same time.  The West and the free world seem to be waking up to the fact that Russia and China are not our friends, and welcoming them into and allowing them to reap the benefits of the free world will do nothing to assuage them.

Put simpler: F@&k Russia, and F@&k China.

Ok so hypothetically we big dick on Russia to teach "them a lesson" and then they retaliate by letting some nukes loose. What would that accomplish exactly? Are we in a better position than we started?
 

Sometimes the thing you want to do and the thing that yields the best result are different. And right now the best result (for the US) is a strategically weakened but non-escalatory Russia. 

[DirkDiggler]

  Should probably go in the WTF thread but either way nice to see Russians killing each other through incompetence.

[SurelySerious]

How worried were the Russians about inciting nuclear war while they were supplying, training, and equipping during Vietnam?

[DirkDiggler]

Poland confirms T-72 tank delivery to Ukraine, with Challenger 2 tanks to fill gap (defensenews.com)

  I think the next phase of this war is going to be dominated by heavy long-range fires and armor; glad to see multiple NATO countries and the US stepping up with artillery and now the Poles are stepping to backfill Ukrainian armor losses; also good that its equipment the Ukrainians are already familiar with.

[DirkDiggler]

4 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

such a poor argument. countries invade other countries all the time. it's not our interest to be involved in policing these actions. fuck man our track record post WWII has been a disaster

  Your second sentence is inaccurate and isn't backed by history or the current US position in the world. 

  The US has certainly made military and foreign policy mistakes post WWII.  Most historians and foreign policy experts would agree that Vietnam, US actions in Iran pre-1979, and probably now Afghanistan after 2004-5 were large failures.  Iraq 2003 is also one IMO but that one is still being debated.  I'll cover the last 30 years of Chinese relations in a sec.  There are most definitely others I can't think of off the top of my head but those are the big ones.   

  Many times our failures and mistakes overshadow our successes.  Korea, through the lenses of history, has been a large success.  As was the outcome of the Cuban Missile Crisis, Just Cause, and Desert Storm.  Our foreign and military policy also led to the fall of Soviet Union and winning the Cold War after 45 years of effort. 

  The United States is still currently the most dominant nation on the planet in terms of both hard and soft power (China has made large strides over the last 30 years to catch up but they're not there yet).  Our network of allies and alliances have given the American public a security that few countries have enjoyed throughout history.  The American people enjoy a standard of living matched by few other countries, based on our economic successes and our place in the liberal international order (I would agree that this is currently at risk due to short-sighted outsourcing of goods production, but that's for another post).  The US Navy still dominants the seas and ensures the flow of goods both to and from our economy.  No other country on the planet currently has the capability to conduct inter-theater military and humanitarian operations the way we can and do.  The number of people across the globe wanting to emigrate to the US is testimony to how desirable the American way of life is.

  None of those things listed above happened by accident; if everything the US has done post WWII was a "disaster", our place in the world and our ability to wield hard/soft power and influence/effect world affairs wouldn't be even close to what it is today.

  If the invasion of Ukraine has proved anything to the Western world, it's that the last 30 years of thinking Russian, and more importantly China's exposure and integration into the world economic and information systems was going to lead to them embracing Western values and governance.  The number of mass graves and destroyed cities in Ukraine should put the final nail in that coffin.  That, IMO< has been a huge failure that we'll be dealing with for quite a while.  

  

[frog]

6 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

such a poor argument. countries invade other countries all the time. it's not our interest to be involved in policing these actions. man our track record post WWII has been a disaster

Post WWII has been the most peaceful time in human history, largely due to the world order set in place by the U.S. Have politicians made mistakes that costs too many American lives? Sure. However,  giving Russia tacit approval to invade Eastern Europe does not make the world safer. I grudgingly admit that the administration is doing a decent job of protecting American interests without getting directly involved in the conflict.

[ClearedHot]

9 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

Poland confirms T-72 tank delivery to Ukraine, with Challenger 2 tanks to fill gap (defensenews.com)

  I think the next phase of this war is going to be dominated by heavy long-range fires and armor; glad to see multiple NATO countries and the US stepping up with artillery and now the Poles are stepping to backfill Ukrainian armor losses; also good that its equipment the Ukrainians are already familiar with.

For the second time in this conflict the pundits predicted Russia would quickly dominate at least part of Ukraine.  It appears the Russians shifted to the south and an apparent strategy to make Ukraine a land locked country by capturing all access to the Black Sea.  Several weeks ago the experts said this would be a different fight on wide open flat ground where the Russian armor advantage would allow for maneuver warfare and a more certain victory.  The Russian also changed commanders and brought in a brutal dude who leveled much of contested Syria.  The new commander seems content to slowly grind forward using massive firepower to level everything in front of the Russian.  The will change once past Maripol and into open terrain.  If the Ukrainians are going to hold they are going this added armor but more importantly they are going to have to fix their interior lines and supply chain.

I have a friend on the ground who is leading a group of former SOF folks who are training the Ukrainians.  Despite massive aid from the U.S. and other nations, supply issues and shortages continue to plague their efforts.  If you watch FlightRadar24  you can see the steady stream of C-17's and other platforms pouring into border nations each day.  Word form the ground is we have no problem getting supplies and equipment across the border but the Ukrainians don't have a mature supply chain that can move things to the front efficiently.  Also, it appears some local commanders in areas well outside the fight have been hoarding weapons and supplies.  Understandably they want to be prepared should the fight come their way but the front line folks are suffering as a result.  Talking to my friend on the ground he related a story about a front line commander who recently rotated out of the front for a day to resupply and reequip.  That commander lost six men they day before, they all bled out at a casualty collection point due to lack of medical supplies.

Interestingly this morning I read a report stating the UK MOD thinks Ukraine again controls much of its airspace.  It remains to be seen if they can take advantage of this change and move equipment and supplies quicker and more freely without being interdicted by the Russians.  If they can get their new armor and a portion of the many anti-armor missile systems that have been provided to the front, they may well be able to deter a Russian combined arms maneuver style attack across the south.  The question is how will Putin respond if the Ukrainians stop them again.

 

[GrndPndr]

45 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

<snip>The question is how will Putin respond if the Ukrainians stop them again.

 

That's just it, isn't it?  One day someone somewhere will deploy a nuke.  Will it be one hundred years form now, or next week.  It seems like our demonstration of this weapon in August of 1945 has held back a lot of folks, but that can't last forever.

Here's a question.  Does Putin think we will come knocking if he delivers one or two tactical nuclear devices to his favorite places in Ukraine?  It sure seems like he might actually have that kind of mindset right now.  He's already risked everything for this, by completely cutting Russia off from the west.  How desperate does he need to be in order to use special weapons thinking that WWIII won't start?

For most of my life, we've always had symmetrical nuke forces standoff - they launch, then we launch everything.  Is this a unique opportunity for him to have a successful asymmetrical nuke fight?  After all, we're not his main enemy/threat right now.

Consider what your own reaction will be when you learn that two nukes have been detonated over Ukraine.  Will you be saying, "Let's go kick Russia's ass?"  Or will you say, "Wait a minute, maybe things will cool down, let's take a breath and wait."  I wonder how many might say, "Let someone else go clean that up."

Does it feel like a warm Gamma infused morning to you?

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by GrndPndr
Spelling, what else?

[DirkDiggler]

1 hour ago, ClearedHot said:

For the second time in this conflict the pundits predicted Russia would quickly dominate at least part of Ukraine.  It appears the Russians shifted to the south and an apparent strategy to make Ukraine a land locked country by capturing all access to the Black Sea.  Several weeks ago the experts said this would be a different fight on wide open flat ground where the Russian armor advantage would allow for maneuver warfare and a more certain victory.  The Russian also changed commanders and brought in a brutal dude who leveled much of contested Syria.  The new commander seems content to slowly grind forward using massive firepower to level everything in front of the Russian.  The will change once past Maripol and into open terrain.  If the Ukrainians are going to hold they are going this added armor but more importantly they are going to have to fix their interior lines and supply chain.

I have a friend on the ground who is leading a group of former SOF folks who are training the Ukrainians.  Despite massive aid from the U.S. and other nations, supply issues and shortages continue to plague their efforts.  If you watch FlightRadar24  you can see the steady stream of C-17's and other platforms pouring into border nations each day.  Word form the ground is we have no problem getting supplies and equipment across the border but the Ukrainians don't have a mature supply chain that can move things to the front efficiently.  Also, it appears some local commanders in areas well outside the fight have been hoarding weapons and supplies.  Understandably they want to be prepared should the fight come their way but the front line folks are suffering as a result.  Talking to my friend on the ground he related a story about a front line commander who recently rotated out of the front for a day to resupply and reequip.  That commander lost six men they day before, they all bled out at a casualty collection point due to lack of medical supplies.

Interestingly this morning I read a report stating the UK MOD thinks Ukraine again controls much of its airspace.  It remains to be seen if they can take advantage of this change and move equipment and supplies quicker and more freely without being interdicted by the Russians.  If they can get their new armor and a portion of the many anti-armor missile systems that have been provided to the front, they may well be able to deter a Russian combined arms maneuver style attack across the south.  The question is how will Putin respond if the Ukrainians stop them again.

 

  Wasn't tracking on the Ukrainian supply issues; I had assumed since they were fighting on interior lines over known railheads/LOCs/terrain that logistics wouldn't be giving them as much trouble as it is the Russians.  Amateurs talk tactics and all that I guess.

  Unfortunately most of the artillery systems the West is donating is 155mm while I believe most of the Ukrainian tube artillery is 122 & 152mm.  Not going to help their supply chain problems.  Wish I was there to help, CDS resupply is a horribly inefficient way of doing business but I could airdrop a lot of shit to guys in need.

[Prozac]

1 hour ago, GrndPndr said:

That's just it, isn't it?  One day someone somewhere will deploy a nuke.  Will it be one hundred years form now, or next week.  It seems like our demonstration of this weapon in August of 1945 has held back a lot of folks, but that can't last forever.

Here's a question.  Does Putin think we will come knocking if he delivers one or two tactical nuclear devices to his favorite places in Ukraine?  It sure seems like he might actually have that kind of mindset right now.  He's already risked everything for this, by completely cutting Russia off from the west.  How desperate does he need to be in order to use special weapons thinking that WWIII won't start?

For most of my life, we've always had symmetrical nuke forces standoff - they launch, then we launch everything.  Is this a unique opportunity for him to have a successful asymmetrical nuke fight?  After all, we're not his main enemy/threat right now.

Consider what your own reaction will be when you learn that two nukes have been detonated over Ukraine.  Will you be saying, "Let's go kick Russia's ass?"  Or will you say, "Wait a minute, maybe things will cool down, let's take a breath and wait."  I wonder how many might say, "Let someone else go clean that up."

Does it feel like a warm Gamma infused morning to you?

 

A lot of risk there on Putin’s part. Maybe a nuclear retaliation by the west is unlikely but there are still ways to further clamp down on the Russian economy. But his biggest problem would be the likely loss of support from the Chinese, who would have a hard time continuing their relationship with Russia in the face of a nuclear strike. Then again, I would’ve thought the same thing in the face of a full blown Russian invasion so who knows?

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, GrndPndr said:

That's just it, isn't it?  One day someone somewhere will deploy a nuke.  Will it be one hundred years form now, or next week.  It seems like our demonstration of this weapon in August of 1945 has held back a lot of folks, but that can't last forever.

Here's a question.  Does Putin think we will come knocking if he delivers one or two tactical nuclear devices to his favorite places in Ukraine?  It sure seems like he might actually have that kind of mindset right now.  He's already risked everything for this, by completely cutting Russia off from the west.  How desperate does he need to be in order to use special weapons thinking that WWIII won't start?

For most of my life, we've always had symmetrical nuke forces standoff - they launch, then we launch everything.  Is this a unique opportunity for him to have a successful asymmetrical nuke fight?  After all, we're not his main enemy/threat right now.

Consider what your own reaction will be when you learn that two nukes have been detonated over Ukraine.  Will you be saying, "Let's go kick Russia's ass?"  Or will you say, "Wait a minute, maybe things will cool down, let's take a breath and wait."  I wonder how many might say, "Let someone else go clean that up."

Does it feel like a warm Gamma infused morning to you?

 

I think we'd respond militarily, but probably not with nukes. I don't see the US and NATO sitting back while Russia nukes their neighbors without a response.

[ecugringo]

1 hour ago, GrndPndr said:

That's just it, isn't it?  One day someone somewhere will deploy a nuke.  Will it be one hundred years form now, or next week.  It seems like our demonstration of this weapon in August of 1945 has held back a lot of folks, but that can't last forever.

Here's a question.  Does Putin think we will come knocking if he delivers one or two tactical nuclear devices to his favorite places in Ukraine?  It sure seems like he might actually have that kind of mindset right now.  He's already risked everything for this, by completely cutting Russia off from the west.  How desperate does he need to be in order to use special weapons thinking that WWIII won't start?

For most of my life, we've always had symmetrical nuke forces standoff - they launch, then we launch everything.  Is this a unique opportunity for him to have a successful asymmetrical nuke fight?  After all, we're not his main enemy/threat right now.

Consider what your own reaction will be when you learn that two nukes have been detonated over Ukraine.  Will you be saying, "Let's go kick Russia's ass?"  Or will you say, "Wait a minute, maybe things will cool down, let's take a breath and wait."  I wonder how many might say, "Let someone else go clean that up."

Does it feel like a warm Gamma infused morning to you?

 

Its like that movie "By Dawns Early Light" where a rogue Russian nuke goes off and the Russian diplomat is trying to convince the US not to retaliate but does anyway and WW3 begins.  Then the Sec of the Interior is running the show.

I am still trying to see what the end zone was going to be for Putin.  A quick victory in Ukrains still meant massive sanctions against him.  Is he trying to bait NATO into a larger fight so he can move West and then cut a deal to secure more former USSR turf?  Is this a master plan for a new Russia/China/India trade sphere?

 

[Prozac]

17 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

such a poor argument. countries invade other countries all the time. it's not our interest to be involved in policing these actions. fuck man our track record post WWII has been a disaster

You do know about that whole ‘Cold War’ thing that we won right? You know, the one where we convinced our former enemies that it was in their interests to become strong democratic allies to the west. The one where we rebuilt a devastated continent that enjoyed relative peace and prosperity for the following seventy years. The one where we avoided nuclear Armageddon when it seemed all but assured. The one where we vanquished a totalitarian dictatorship without firing a shot and brought freedom to millions who hadn’t dared dream about it for decades. You know, the Cold War, four decades of American leadership (that has continued since) that made the world a better place to live for most of the people on it. 
 

Of course I suppose it’s possible that you and Putin and Xi are right. All of those things could have taken place without American leadership. Maybe there would be greater peace and prosperity if only the US hadn’t stood in the way of the great people’s communist revolutions of the world. In fact, every American action since the end of WWII has been interventionalist and destabilizing. Who are we to spread ideas like liberal democracy and freedom when there are competent, peace loving leaders like Xi who know that the best thing for their people is maintaining and expanding their own grip on power. Yes, we pesky Americans keep trying to fuck that up for them. We’re like authoritarianism cock blockers and it’s high time we and the free world realize the error of our ways and get out of the way while Putin and Xi date rape their neighbors. 

[BashiChuni]

21 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

How worried were the Russians about inciting nuclear war while they were supplying, training, and equipping during Vietnam?

false comparison vietnam wasn't fought along the border of the united states. neither big state had a nationalistic interest in that conflict.

this one? it's personal for the russians.

[Lawman]

false comparison vietnam wasn't fought along the border of the united states. neither big state had a nationalistic interest in that conflict.
this one? it's personal for the russians.

It’ll be “personal” for them if they come through this feeling that unification through force is an acceptable option in Latvia or Estonia….

Only in that case this will be an open ended conflict with NATO. Yes there are risks in this course of action with regards to what will Vlad and his inner circle do from their perspective. That said we all know damn well what NATO and our forces will do should Iskanders start landing in Tallinn instead of Kyiv.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[SurelySerious]

false comparison vietnam wasn't fought along the border of the united states. neither big state had a nationalistic interest in that conflict.
this one? it's personal for the russians.

The Russians in MiGs killing Americans wasn’t personal?

Edit to add: either way, this isn’t personal for the Russians…just one Russian.

[BashiChuni]

15 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

The Russians in MiGs killing Americans wasn’t personal?

Edit to add: either way, this isn’t personal for the Russians…just one Russian.

To the American public in the 60s it clearly wasn’t personal 

[SurelySerious]

To the American public in the 60s it clearly wasn’t personal 

Cool, then supplying thousands of anti tank and anti aircraft weapons won’t be personal to the Russian people. Glad we agree.