Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[Prozac]

  On 9/3/2022 at 3:42 PM, HeloDude said:

Just so we understand you correctly, are you making the argument that the US economy is strong/in good shape right now?  

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Strong-er than pretty much everybody else. It’s all relative my man. What country would you rather live in at the moment? 

[Guest nsplayr]

  On 9/3/2022 at 3:42 PM, HeloDude said:

Just so we understand you correctly, are you making the argument that the US economy is strong/in good shape right now?  

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Especially compared to anyone else. Like Einstein said, it’s all relative. 

[HeloDude]

  On 9/3/2022 at 4:04 PM, Prozac said:

Strong-er than pretty much everybody else. It’s all relative my man. What country would you rather live in at the moment? 

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I don’t care about other countries, I care about our own.  So if you think this economy is good/strong compared to recent previous years, then we’ll just have to disagree on that one. 

[Danger41]

  On 9/3/2022 at 11:46 AM, pawnman said:

So your assertion is that if we just let Russia take over their neighbors... Missouri would have water? 

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Missouri has water now but Mississippi is having problems. 
 

I’m saying Russia’s other neighbors aka our NATO allies, could not rely on us to take care of their defense if they were really worried about it. Hell, how many even meet the 2% GDP requirement? Therefore, they pay up and stop being weak dick cucks and we can put some money towards our own crumbling stuff. But that’s a way bigger conversation than I want to have/outside the scope here.
 

I know you know that and you’re being obtuse. But then again you don’t know the difference in postal codes between Mississippi and Missouri so who knows.

[HeloDude]

  On 9/3/2022 at 4:06 PM, nsplayr said:

Especially compared to anyone else. Like Einstein said, it’s all relative. 

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Well, 83% of Americans disagree with you, but you keep thinking that lol.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/398963/economic-confidence-improving-weak.aspx

[Biff_T]

  On 9/3/2022 at 2:11 PM, Lord Ratner said:

Nonsense. What we are spending in Ukraine is budget dust compared to the domestic expenses that have put us well beyond the point of recovery.

The money sent to Ukraine probably has the highest rate of achieving its intended purpose of all government spending in the last 30 years.

 

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I like to take a little hit of that budget dust to help the homeless. Nobody is really doing anything except moving them to other places.  I imagine good majority of the nation's homeless eventually end up in So Cal (good weather for the homeless).  Skid Row (not the band) is one example of many places that should not exist in our society. Dem/Reps aren't really doing anything to help.  It's mostly lip service and local volunteers doing what little they can.

Homeless American children as well.   

There is so much wrong in our country right now that it makes me question what pronoun to call myself?

 

I forgot this was the Russian thread.

Putin will eventually die.   The sad thing is what happens when the soldiers come home and realize that they were duped.  Going into hell and killing people for a lie. Now they come home to a broken country.  Putin will eventually die. Lyrics maybe?

Putin should be scared.  

 

 

[BFM this]

  On 9/3/2022 at 5:44 PM, Biff_T said:

I like to take a little hit of that budget dust to help the homeless. Nobody is really doing anything except moving them to other places.  I imagine good majority of the nation's homeless eventually end up in So Cal (good weather for the homeless).  Skid Row (not the band) is one example of many places that should not exist in our society. Dem/Reps aren't really doing anything to help.  It's mostly lip service and local volunteers doing what little they can.

Homeless American children as well.   

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The Homeless Industrial Complex would like a hit of that budget dust, for sure.

Oh, wait, did you mean you wanted to curb homelessness?  Sorry, way to lucrative a business for anything like that...

https://newrepublic.com/article/166383/los-angeles-echo-park-homeless-industrial-complex

Back to the Shenanigans!

 

[Prozac]

  On 9/3/2022 at 4:53 PM, Danger41 said:

NATO allies, could not rely on us to take care of their defense if they were really worried about it. Hell, how many even meet the 2% GDP requirement?

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Have you been following international geopolitics at all lately? This is exactly what is happening. Countries like Germany are finally stepping it up after years of neglecting defense. 

[Danger41]

  On 9/3/2022 at 9:48 PM, Prozac said:

Have you been following international geopolitics at all lately? This is exactly what is happening. Countries like Germany are finally stepping it up after years of neglecting defense. 

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I’ll believe it when I see it and not some bullshit “pledge” like Sweden and Finland, our newest allies. 
 

Here’s the most recent expenditures that are available from NATO. Lots of red from countries that share a border with the Russians but luckily me and the rest of my US mil buddies can come bail them out. 

 

 

[brwwg&b]

  On 9/4/2022 at 12:08 AM, Danger41 said:

Lots of red from countries that share a border with the Russians

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1/5 NATO countries that border Russia are in the red - Norway only. 
 

Absolutely agree that the remainder should show up with the $$ / % GDP to share shouldering the weight of deterrence and defense. Just saying your argument isn’t accurate. I do also agree that if/when Finland joins, they’ll need to bump up from their historic ~1.5% GDP on defense. 

[Danger41]

  On 9/4/2022 at 12:31 AM, brwwg&b said:

1/5 NATO countries that border Russia are in the red - Norway only. 
 

Absolutely agree that the remainder should show up with the $$ / % GDP to share shouldering the weight of deterrence and defense. Just saying your argument isn’t accurate. I do also agree that if/when Finland joins, they’ll need to bump up from their historic ~1.5% GDP on defense. 

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Totally valid. I was focusing on Scandinavia and the members, current/future. Good point.

[Guest nsplayr]

  On 9/4/2022 at 12:31 AM, brwwg&b said:

1/5 NATO countries that border Russia are in the red - Norway only. 
 

Absolutely agree that the remainder should show up with the $$ / % GDP to share shouldering the weight of deterrence and defense. Just saying your argument isn’t accurate. I do also agree that if/when Finland joins, they’ll need to bump up from their historic ~1.5% GDP on defense. 

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Agreed on all, although Finland is historically very efficient with their relatively small amount of military power 🇫🇮


 

Sweden is also currently below the 2% target, but their really good diesel submarines are a huge asymmetric advantage for them that will be a nice boost to NATO’s sea power. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by nsplayr

[pawnman]

  On 9/3/2022 at 5:44 PM, Biff_T said:

I like to take a little hit of that budget dust to help the homeless. Nobody is really doing anything except moving them to other places.  I imagine good majority of the nation's homeless eventually end up in So Cal (good weather for the homeless).  Skid Row (not the band) is one example of many places that should not exist in our society. Dem/Reps aren't really doing anything to help.  It's mostly lip service and local volunteers doing what little they can.

Homeless American children as well.   

There is so much wrong in our country right now that it makes me question what pronoun to call myself?

 

I forgot this was the Russian thread.

Putin will eventually die.   The sad thing is what happens when the soldiers come home and realize that they were duped.  Going into hell and killing people for a lie. Now they come home to a broken country.  Putin will eventually die. Lyrics maybe?

Putin should be scared.  

 

 

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So... why weren't we helping them prior to the invasion of Ukraine? 

It's just such a specious argument that this money would be spent on your number 1 issue if only it weren't diverted to something you disagree with. 

[Biff_T]

  On 9/4/2022 at 8:24 PM, pawnman said:

So... why weren't we helping them prior to the invasion of Ukraine? 

It's just such a specious argument that this money would be spent on your number 1 issue if only it weren't diverted to something you disagree with. 

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First off.  I'm glad we're spending money in the Ukraine.  

To answer your first question.  Because nobody cares.

What other brain busters do you have for me?

Edit:  I reread my post and I can see how it's confusing to you Pawnman.   I'm not implying that we should take money from Ukraine and use it to help the homeless.  I was trying to show how the government doesn't really care about domestic issues like homelessness.  Because if they did, it would only take a little "budget dust" to help them.   If we have money for all of the foreign aid we provide to the rest of the world. And if what we are spending in Ukraine is merely budget dust, then surely we could have helped solve some problems in our own country with a little dust as well.  

I should have clarified that in my previous post.  

I don't mind spending money to help get rid of Putin.  Not one bit.  

Edited September 4, 2022 by Biff_T

[FLEA]

  On 9/4/2022 at 8:24 PM, pawnman said:

So... why weren't we helping them prior to the invasion of Ukraine? 

It's just such a specious argument that this money would be spent on your number 1 issue if only it weren't diverted to something you disagree with. 

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Probably because the military industrial lobbyist we're still feasting on GWOT until a year ago. 

[arg]

  On 9/4/2022 at 12:08 AM, Danger41 said:

I’ll believe it when I see it and not some bullshit “pledge” like Sweden and Finland, our newest allies. 
 

Here’s the most recent expenditures that are available from NATO. Lots of red from countries that share a border with the Russians but luckily me and the rest of my US mil buddies can come bail them out. 

 

 

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Wasn’t Trump trying to get them to pay more?

[Clark Griswold]

1945 had a pretty good summation of our strategy in Ukraine and pretty much everywhere else too:

Civilian leadership:  Just do something, anything, I don't know just something and right now.

Military:  Ok

What Is America's Goal for the Ukraine War? Answer: We Don't Have One - 19FortyFive

The cost to the United States for all these failures has been profound – and now we’re creating a new mission without a clear objective and no identifiable end state.

Where things are right now:

Not to be dismissive of the Ukrainians rightful cause against aggression but our interests are involved too as we are their patron keeping them from being defeated, but it's time for this to end.

Bleeding Russia to the last Ukranian is not a good idea in the long run and Europe hence a huge portion of the world's economy is getting unstable, food prices, energy prices and inflation, etc... besides I'm not convinced we are weakening Russia to the extent we think we are.

No Russian presence west of the Dnieper River and cede the Donbas to the Russians.  End hostilities with an armistice and an enduring US military mission in Ukraine.  No formal peace, no further kinetic actions, another Korea.  Best we can do.

 

[Prozac]

  On 9/5/2022 at 2:45 PM, Clark Griswold said:

Best we can do.

 

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I dunno. Seems like the Ukrainian counter-offensive is starting off on the right foot & the Russians may just be ham-fisted enough and so strapped for ammunition, equipment, and personnel that they won’t be able to defend any of what they’ve gained. Let’s keep supplying Ukraine for as long as they need to re-establish their borders. The one concession might have to be Sevastopol, which the Russians likely will defend at all costs. Get the Turks and/or Israelis into Crimea as non-aligned peacekeepers & you might have a workable peace. 

[Lord Ratner]

  On 9/3/2022 at 5:44 PM, Biff_T said:

I like to take a little hit of that budget dust to help the homeless. Nobody is really doing anything except moving them to other places.  I imagine good majority of the nation's homeless eventually end up in So Cal (good weather for the homeless).  Skid Row (not the band) is one example of many places that should not exist in our society. Dem/Reps aren't really doing anything to help.  It's mostly lip service and local volunteers doing what little they can.

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That's because it's not a homeless problem, it's a drug problem. There is a ton of money being spent on it, but it will do nothing because no one wants to admit that we need forcibly imprison the homeless and subject them to compulsory rehab, and reestablish the insane asylums for those who are too far gone to treat.

 

We can work on that problem and support Ukraine at the same time.

 

[Biff_T]

  On 9/5/2022 at 7:18 PM, Lord Ratner said:

That's because it's not a homeless problem, it's a drug problem. There is a ton of money being spent on it, but it will do nothing because no one wants to admit that we need forcibly imprison the homeless and subject them to compulsory rehab, and reestablish the insane asylums for those who are too far gone to treat.

 

We can work on that problem and support Ukraine at the same time.

 

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I agree with everything you just said!

[Majestik Møøse]

  On 9/5/2022 at 2:45 PM, Clark Griswold said:

1945 had a pretty good summation of our strategy in Ukraine and pretty much everywhere else too:

Civilian leadership:  Just do something, anything, I don't know just something and right now.

Military:  Ok

What Is America's Goal for the Ukraine War? Answer: We Don't Have One - 19FortyFive

The cost to the United States for all these failures has been profound – and now we’re creating a new mission without a clear objective and no identifiable end state.

Where things are right now:

Not to be dismissive of the Ukrainians rightful cause against aggression but our interests are involved too as we are their patron keeping them from being defeated, but it's time for this to end.

Bleeding Russia to the last Ukranian is not a good idea in the long run and Europe hence a huge portion of the world's economy is getting unstable, food prices, energy prices and inflation, etc... besides I'm not convinced we are weakening Russia to the extent we think we are.

No Russian presence west of the Dnieper River and cede the Donbas to the Russians.  End hostilities with an armistice and an enduring US military mission in Ukraine.  No formal peace, no further kinetic actions, another Korea.  Best we can do.

 

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Russia goes home? How’s that?

[Clark Griswold]

  On 9/5/2022 at 6:24 PM, Prozac said:

I dunno. Seems like the Ukrainian counter-offensive is starting off on the right foot & the Russians may just be ham-fisted enough and so strapped for ammunition, equipment, and personnel that they won’t be able to defend any of what they’ve gained. Let’s keep supplying Ukraine for as long as they need to re-establish their borders. The one concession might have to be Sevastopol, which the Russians likely will defend at all costs. Get the Turks and/or Israelis into Crimea as non-aligned peacekeepers & you might have a workable peace. 

Giving them some time to take back some territory / pressure the Russians is fine but there will come a point where I fear if the Russians really start to screw it up the temptation to go low yield tactical nuke becomes irresistible, the world gets really scary then.
If they lose conventionally they lose deterrence against other foes they face, if the nuke first as they start to lose they end the conflict and they establish fear of nuclear reprisal with a recent example that assures them no one will f with them even though they lost a conventional conflict, yeah they’re a super pariah now but they have so much in natural resources it won’t last long term (isolation via extreme sanctions).
If Russia gets territorial concessions and a land bridge to Crimea, then the West can beat that for the new Ukraine, basically a Marshall Plan plus immediate entry into the EU and NATO with US boots on the ground day 1 after conflict cessation


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[Clark Griswold]

  On 9/5/2022 at 11:25 PM, Majestik Møøse said:

Russia goes home? How’s that?

They won’t go home ever, don’t think I said that or didn’t mean to imply it, I think they’ll go tactically nuclear before they get kicked out of Ukraine
I think recognition that they will keep about the amount of territory they have now is the reality the world should accept and move to a feasible plan to end the war, bring new Ukraine into the Western fold and subvert Putin with a free, reformed (long term project like South Korea) Ukraine


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[uhhello]

  On 9/6/2022 at 12:15 AM, Clark Griswold said:

They won’t go home ever, don’t think I said that or didn’t mean to imply it, I think they’ll go tactically nuclear before they get kicked out of Ukraine
I think recognition that they will keep about the amount of territory they have now is the reality the world should accept and move to a feasible plan to end the war, bring new Ukraine into the Western fold and subvert Putin with a free, reformed (long term project like South Korea) Ukraine


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I hate it but it's gotta end something like that.  

[ClearedHot]

With reports of attacks and loss of control in the Crimea I think we are far closer to a doomsday (Tac Nuke), scenario.  We are becoming ever more bold in providing help and equipment to the Ukrainians which has helped them build momentum.  Putin needs an off ramp and his options are decreasing.  

While I am in favor of killing and crushing the Russian invaders it has become apparent the rank and file (mostly conscripts), of the Russian Army was unaware they were invading another country.  The losses are staggering and the desperation in some of the intercepted phone calls and messages relates a generation of young Russian men being chewed up in a meat-grinder that has produced upwards of 80,000 casualties and a stalemate at best.

In many cases numerous Russian units have become combat ineffective.  Russian weapons inventory is low (over 50% of all attack missiles consumed, a similar story on artillery stocks), older equipment is being pressed into service and Putin has called for another round of conscription.  The ending is not yet determined but it will not be pretty for either side.

Ukrainian pensioner 'shoots down £74million Russian Su-34 jet with a RIFLE and is awarded a medal for his heroism'