Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[Prozac]

5 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

Great video of a Russian forgetting the childhood lesson of stop, drop, and roll.

To be fair, he seemed to do a pretty good job of correctly assessing and clearing the potential blast radius of the nearby armored targets before dealing with the trivial fact of being on fire. 

[Biff_T]

7 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

Great video of a Russian forgetting the childhood lesson of stop, drop, and roll.

[BashiChuni]

Yeah I missed the part where Putin is steamrolling into NATO countries can you show me?

we never signed up to defend Ukraine. They’re not nato. 

[BashiChuni]

6 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Russia actually had, IMHO, more impressive power projection in Syria that I thought they could pull off long-term. Totally unrelated to NATO expansion or whatever other excuse you want to make for Putin’s aggressive, expansionist wars.

If you think the Ukrainians are the bad guys and Putin is the innocent victim here who is only, “reacting defensively” in the war with Ukraine…phew boy that’s quite the POV to walk around with all day.

Again you make strawmans to argue against. 
 

show me where I said Ukrainians are the bad guys. Show me where I said Putin is innocent. Come on dude have some nuance and stop making up arguments to dunk on. 
 

ukraine is not nato. We have zero obligation to defend it. Support them? Sure. For now. But it’s not unlimited. 

[nsplayr]

The biggest straw man is your assertion that there is a “blank check” for Ukraine. There’s not! There’s calculated material and intelligence support to help them defend themselves, aligned with our national interests.

The reason folks including me are dunking is this seems like one of the biggest, clearest wins in terms of use of US dollars and effort to for what we’re getting in terms of a major opponent crippling themselves. 

[FLEA]

11 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

The biggest straw man is your assertion that there is a “blank check” for Ukraine. There’s not! There’s calculated material and intelligence support to help them defend themselves, aligned with our national interests.

The reason folks including me are dunking is this seems like one of the biggest, clearest wins in terms of use of US dollars and effort to for what we’re getting in terms of a major opponent crippling themselves. 

But there is a concern that there is an enormous social dialogue to continuously increase that. 

[nsplayr]

30 minutes ago, FLEA said:

But there is a concern that there is an enormous social dialogue to continuously increase that. 

I guess I’m not tracking.

FWIW, when it stops being in our national interest we should stop sending weapons to Ukraine. Same as anywhere else.

But IMHO they’re clearly in the right here having been invaded by our long term adversary, so there’s miles of runway before I think our national interest would run out. They’re using those weapons to defend their country and smash a ton of Russian mil capability and that’s an unambiguous win.

Even better would be if the Russians got rid of Putin, ended the war, returned home and peacefully joined the rest of Europe, but until that happens I’m happy for them to suffer militarily for their ill-conceived adventure.

[DirkDiggler]

20 hours ago, FLEA said:

Found out while working with NATO AWACS in Europe that apparently only Americans are actually taught that. Like no kidding, at the egress training the fire department brings it up and there's even been studies on it showing that more Americans correctly react in incidents when on fire than Europeans or other countries. How wild is that?

Lol.  Today I learned.

[jice]

1 hour ago, DirkDiggler said:

Lol.  Today I learned.

Same here. Did 4 minutes of research and expected it to be related to WWII. Turns out it didn’t have to do with flamethrowers or incendiary bombs… After the war people started wearing clothes made out of plastic. Especially children, since vinyl and nylon became cheap ways to clothe baby baby boomers. 

[gearhog]

URGENT: Team of International Investigators conclude Vladimir Putin personally shot down Malaysian Airlines flight, killing 300 innocent civilians.

Horrible if true. He should be punished.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-putin-likely-signed-off-missile-supply-malaysia-airlines-shoot-down-investigators-say

 

[Lawman]

URGENT: Team of International Investigators conclude Vladimir Putin personally shot down Malaysian Airlines flight, killing 300 innocent civilians.
Horrible if true. He should be punished.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-putin-likely-signed-off-missile-supply-malaysia-airlines-shoot-down-investigators-say
 

See there is a difference between

“Viewing this from the Russian perspective”

Vs

“Being empathetic and even sympathetic to the Russian perspective (read propaganda).”

If you believe there is any way Russia isn’t responsible for MH17 you either don’t have current access to a vault and the widely available materials on SIPR discussing it, or you’re just a loon buying their BS story about the Uke’s doing despite all the evidence to the contrary (both open source and not).


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[gearhog]

1 hour ago, Lawman said:

See there is a difference between

“Viewing this from the Russian perspective”

Vs

“Being empathetic and even sympathetic to the Russian perspective (read propaganda).”

If you believe there is any way Russia isn’t responsible for MH17 you either don’t have current access to a vault and the widely available materials on SIPR discussing it, or you’re just a loon buying their BS story about the Uke’s doing despite all the evidence to the contrary (both open source and not).

You're accusing me of being empathetic and even sympathetic to Russians? Why? I 100% believe that a Russian made missile shot down that aircraft.

But since you brought up propaganda, this is about an incident that occurred almost 10 years ago. This investigation team, with Ukraine as one of the investigators, just now release a report headlining Putin as having approved a deal that transferred missiles to pro Russian Ukrainians during a Ukrainian civil war. They fucked up and shot down a passenger jet. I don't remember there ever being any doubt this was the case.

But to trot out this "investigative" report at the same time the Ukrainians and all other countries with members on this "International Team of Investigators" are advocating for increased arms sales to Ukraine and escalating conflict with the headline "Putin Responsible"... that isn't propaganda? To anyone with a keen eye for the obvious, this is being dusted off as a reason to escalate.

[Sim]

Quote

Seymour Hersh, a Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter, has claimed that US deep-sea divers, using a Nato military exercise as a cover, planted mines along the pipelines that were later detonated remotely.

 

https://archive.is/BsHj1

[Lawman]

You're accusing me of being empathetic and even sympathetic to Russians? Why? I 100% believe that a Russian made missile shot down that aircraft.
But since you brought up propaganda, this is about an incident that occurred almost 10 years ago. This investigation team, with Ukraine as one of the investigators, just now release a report headlining Putin as having approved a deal that transferred missiles to pro Russian Ukrainians during a Ukrainian civil war. They ed up and shot down a passenger jet. I don't remember there ever being any doubt this was the case.
But to trot out this "investigative" report at the same time the Ukrainians and all other countries with members on this "International Team of Investigators" are advocating for increased arms sales to Ukraine and escalating conflict with the headline "Putin Responsible"... that isn't propaganda? To anyone with a keen eye for the obvious, this is being dusted off as a reason to escalate.

“Transferred missiles to pro Russian….”


F me dude. Really you think an SA-11/17 is something a group of rebel separatists not only have in working order but also have the training and wherewithal to be using effectively? Have you ever sat in one? This isn’t something a bunch of pissed off former compulsory conscripts and angry guys with AKs just YouTube directions for or play some warthunder and figure out. ADA is a job normally reserved to involving a team of at least a couple contract soldiers. Just some rando dude that with no help or anything…. Popped one missile with enough Pk to accidentally bring down a 777. Then it randomly moves from the Donbas because reasons and the Russians stop international investigators.

Is this like when we pretend those dudes in kit with no patches we can easily identify are just “disgruntled separatists” and not what they clearly were to the adults in the room as they seized key terrain and nodes during the Crimea invasion?

Again… you claim you aren’t sympathetic to giving the Russians the benefit of the doubt while you repeatedly dredge shit up on the Uke’s in this thread and others like some kind of foreboding warning to all of us.


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[gearhog]

1 hour ago, Lawman said:

“Transferred missiles to pro Russian….”
F me dude. Really you think an SA-11/17 is something a group of rebel separatists not only have but have the training and wherewithal to be using effectively? Have you ever sat in one?

Is this like when we pretend those dudes in kit with no patches we can easily identify are just “disgruntled separatists” and not what they clearly were to the adults in the room as they seized key terrain and nodes during the Crimea invasion?

Again… you claim you aren’t sympathetic to giving the Russians the benefit of the doubt while you repeatedly dredge shit up on the Uke’s in this thread and others like some kind of foreboding warning to all of us.

I get the impression you really want to tell everyone about the time you sat in a SA-11/117. Please do.

I'm an American and I believe we have been blessed with all the necessary ingredients for being a great country, and we have been a great country. Somehow, you cannot imagine me holding the people leading this country to a high standard of integrity, righteousness, and honesty in hopes of keeping it that way. Stirring a hornet's nest for expansion of wealth and power not only at the cost of our citizens, but citizens and soldiers on the other side of the world is something I think needs to be criticized. After a while, I got tired of people cheerleading this conflict. There's plenty of people here bemoaning all the awful things that have happened to the USA at the hands of people acting in self-interest, yet also believe that same leadership is delivering pristine justice around the planet. The other side needs to be presented.

Do you really want to live in a place where corrupt leadership can put your future at serious risk while going completely unchallenged? Anyone who questions the intentional escalation of foreign conflict at a tremendous cost is not patriotic, right? I've always wondered how hundreds of thousands of people in those old documentaries can go to war like herd animals thinking they're the good guys only to be taken to task and pay a terrible price in the end. I'm starting to understand.

You also claimed I'm dredging shit up. I posted today's headline regarding a report on an incident that happened in 2014 to drum up support for increased supplies of weapons and aid to Ukraine... but I'm dredging shit up. LOL. How did you not spot the irony?

1 hour ago, Lawman said:

F me dude.

Finally, something we can agree on.

Just kidding.

Edited February 9, 2023 by gearhog

[Lawman]

Finally, something we can agree on.
Just kidding.

No I think you’re a “useful idiot” dude. Like cool you did some crap way back whenever then hell it was which got you buy in and now you’re just some disgruntled old conspiracy theorist bitching about this fight because of some military industrial complex Illuminati nonsense you’ve been convinced of.

You’ve got no idea what the hell is going on and you’re jumping in an Internet forum to present some sort of “alternate to the government narrative” idea as to what’s “really happening.”

Just go fishing or something. Find a hobby and stop trying to protect us from actually negatively impacting a geopolitical foe.

Because the fact you glossed completely past what I typed about the complexity of operating a Buk ADA system or the fact we knew the reality that the little green men (the ones who were actually VDV and Spetz contract guys masquerading as rebels) were just angry Russian ethnics that happened to have top of the line Russian gear…. Cool you bought the bullshit Russian produced narrative. It’s not their fault…obviously NATO and Lockheed started this war for their own benefit just like the half dozen other times of Russia invade and attempting to annex a neighbor.


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[FLEA]

2 hours ago, Lawman said:

No I think you’re a “useful idiot” dude. Like cool you did some crap way back whenever then hell it was which got you buy in and now you’re just some disgruntled old conspiracy theorist bitching about this fight because of some military industrial complex Illuminati nonsense you’ve been convinced of.

You’ve got no idea what the hell is going on and you’re jumping in an Internet forum to present some sort of “alternate to the government narrative” idea as to what’s “really happening.”

Just go fishing or something. Find a hobby and stop trying to protect us from actually negatively impacting a geopolitical foe.

Because the fact you glossed completely past what I typed about the complexity of operating a Buk ADA system or the fact we knew the reality that the little green men (the ones who were actually VDV and Spetz contract guys masquerading as rebels) were just angry Russian ethnics that happened to have top of the line Russian gear…. Cool you bought the bullshit Russian produced narrative. It’s not their fault…obviously NATO and Lockheed started this war for their own benefit just like the half dozen other times of Russia invade and attempting to annex a neighbor.


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I think there are just a lot of people out there that are more keenly aware that we guzzle as much propaganda on a day to day basis as your average Russian or Chinese citizen as well. Everything you read was written with agenda. I think its healthy to ask what that agenda was and what behavior did that writer feel compelled to manipulate into you through that writing. Dont believe free press protects your societal level group think that pushes contorted narratives to meet some odd ends. The only thing that changes with free press is the auditor of that media, not the objectivity. 

[gearhog]

7 hours ago, Lawman said:

No I think you’re a “useful idiot” dude. Like cool you did some crap way back whenever then hell it was which got you buy in and now you’re just some disgruntled old conspiracy theorist bitching about this fight because of some military industrial complex Illuminati nonsense you’ve been convinced of.

You’ve got no idea what the hell is going on and you’re jumping in an Internet forum to present some sort of “alternate to the government narrative” idea as to what’s “really happening.”

Just go fishing or something. Find a hobby and stop trying to protect us from actually negatively impacting a geopolitical foe.

Because the fact you glossed completely past what I typed about the complexity of operating a Buk ADA system or the fact we knew the reality that the little green men (the ones who were actually VDV and Spetz contract guys masquerading as rebels) were just angry Russian ethnics that happened to have top of the line Russian gear…. Cool you bought the bullshit Russian produced narrative. It’s not their fault…obviously NATO and Lockheed started this war for their own benefit just like the half dozen other times of Russia invade and attempting to annex a neighbor.

Once again, you're using personal insults. C'mon, man. I've never tried to denigrate you as a person or what you've accomplished. If you're trying to present yourself as reasonable and knowledgeable enough to adequately make your case, you're only shooting yourself in the foot. It makes you look bad, not me. I'm interested in challenging ideas and my own ideas being challenged. I don't care about your condescending emotional tirades. I get it, though, it was late and you were probably frustrated. No big deal, I understand, and can excuse that. That's the way this forum usually goes. Just make your case without all the other nonsense about being disgruntled, going fishing, finding a hobby, illuminati bullshit and all that, and don't let what I say bother you as much.

I've never used the words "military industrial complex" or "illuminati" in any of my previous posts. This is the most common tactic here: Pretend I said something that I didn't, attempt to attribute it to me, and attack me for it. It's lame and it's lying. If you believe I'm wrong to give an "alternative to the government narrative" then I can only assume you're only willing to buy into the official government narrative. Have you seen a White House press briefing lately? Good lord. I can't believe you're swallowing that.

I glossed over the Buk ADA purposefully. I know you're knowledgeable on that specific issue and I could tell you were dying to dunk on whatever I said about Russian Air Defenses. Again, if you want to tell me all you know about it from the vault and your personal first hand experiences, I'm interested in reading it. Your assessment that Ukrainians aren't smart enough to use a BUK is an interesting take.

There's plenty of video of Americans on the front lines of Ukraine right now. Why would your frame your claim that "There were Russian contract guys masquerading as rebels!" as some shocking nefarious act when we've clearly engaged in it, in many of our recent conflicts around the world.

In reference to the half-dozen times Russia tried to expand their influence, check out the last 30 years:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_conflicts_involving_the_United_States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia

 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by gearhog

[gearhog]

On 1/31/2023 at 3:04 PM, Lawman said:

“Oh no we won’t give them Vipers” seems like a statement of ignorance considering their military model doesn’t attempt to achieve Air Superiority through air platforms.

On 1/31/2023 at 5:54 PM, Lawman said:

Viper or something similar is a very small part in that massive mechanism we wield to achieve Air Superiority and dominance our way (from the Air primarily). Pretending they have all or some of the other facets of what makes that achievable and the missing link here is us giving them Vipers/Mirages/Tornados/god damned spitfires is ignorant at best.

Their military model doesn't attempt to achieve Air Superiority through air platforms.

They don't have all the facets to make it achievable.

I just wanted to reiterate this today.

https://twitter.com/DarwinAwards_/status/1623392345101307904?s=20&t=pLcJaWjfNdQq8jVqaPgkEQ

Edited February 9, 2023 by gearhog

[Lawman]

Your assessment that Ukrainians aren't smart enough to use a BUK is an interesting take.

Again… you are carefully inserting the Russian narrative counter to exactly what I said or implied like you are here to bat for their team. The one that absolves them and their government from any kind of responsibility for the event.

There is no question who was using operating that system that shot down MH17, and it wasn’t a bunch of Ukrainians so why are you attempting to imply it was in the same long winded speech about media and agendas.


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[gearhog]

17 minutes ago, Lawman said:

Again… you are carefully inserting the Russian narrative counter to exactly what I said or implied like you are here to bat for their team.

There is no question who was using that system that shot down MH17, and it wasn’t a bunch of Ukrainians so why are you attempting to imply it was in the same long winded speech about media and agendas.

 

Every narrative that doesn't align with the US government narrative is not a pro-Russian narrative.

Calling into question the actions of US government officials does not make one anti-American.

I have never once expressed any support for anything Russia is doing. I can't control or influence them. I don't speak Russian. Realize the only thing I can do is share opinions and ideas regarding the people that represent me in my country. Me criticizing conflict escalation does not make me pro-Russian. Me criticizing conflict escalation does not make me Anti-American. Is there anything I can do aside from obediently shouting "Slava Ukraini!" to make this clear to you?

"In political communication, the phrase "you are either with us, or against us" and similar variations are used to generate polarisation and reject non-partisanship. The implied consequence of not joining the partisan effort of the speaker is to be deemed an enemy. A contemporary example is the statement of former US President George W. Bush, who declared at the launch of his anti-terrorism campaign, "Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."^[1]

The statement generally is a descriptive statement identifying the beliefs of the speakers, and thus state a basic assumption, not a logical conclusion. It may also be interpreted as a speech act. Sometimes it is interpreted as a splitting or a false dilemma, which is an informal fallacy.

Some see the statement as a way of persuading others to choose sides in a conflict which does not allow the position of neutrality.^[2] Only when there are no alternatives like a middle ground does the phrase hold validity as a logical conclusion. The phrases are a form of argumentation.^[3]"

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by gearhog

[DirkDiggler]

Nice wake up video of Russian equipment burning, the Terminator getting "terminated", even set to T2 music.

[Lawman]

 
Every narrative that doesn't align with the US government narrative is not a pro-Russian narrative.
Calling into question the actions of US government officials does not make one anti-American.
I have never once expressed any support for anything Russia is doing. I can't control or influence them. I don't speak Russian. Realize the only thing I can do is share opinions and ideas regarding the people that represent me in my country. Me criticizing conflict escalation does not make me pro-Russian. Me criticizing conflict escalation does not make me Anti-American. Is there anything I can do aside from obediently shouting "Slava Ukraini!" to make this clear to you?
"In political communication, the phrase "you are either with us, or against us" and similar variations are used to generate polarisation and reject non-partisanship. The implied consequence of not joining the partisan effort of the speaker is to be deemed an enemy. A contemporary example is the statement of former US President George W. Bush, who declared at the launch of his anti-terrorism campaign, "Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."^[1]
The statement generally is a descriptive statement identifying the beliefs of the speakers, and thus state a basic assumption, not a logical conclusion. It may also be interpreted as a speech act. Sometimes it is interpreted as a splitting or a false dilemma, which is an informal fallacy.
Some see the statement as a way of persuading others to choose sides in a conflict which does not allow the position of neutrality.^[2] Only when there are no alternatives like a middle ground does the phrase hold validity as a logical conclusion. The phrases are a form of argumentation.^[3]"
 

Because you are deliberately trying to create parallels where none exist and continuing to support disinformation and present it as fact of some kind of wider hidden western desire to cause/continue this war.

Narratives are not equal. You can acknowledge the existence of political or personal motivations to paint a picture without having to adopt the nonsense that somehow the Russian and Western narratives are leading to some sort of “truthful middle ground.”

The Russian narratives are bold faced lies. “We didn’t invade Crimea those are separatists.” “We didn’t shoot down MH17 because our forces weren’t there it was Ukrainians.” “We are conducting this war to de-nazify the Ukrainian government.” There is a demonstrated history SPECIFIC to this conflict and you pointing to any past instances of western history is an attempt to distract from that or give them a buffer to continue it.

If you think there is any kind of equivalency between western mass media and Russian you are clueless. Likewise if you can’t understand the nuance of providing support while accepting any Ukrainian’s skeletons in their closet as a lesser evil to emboldening/ignoring/rewarding a geo political foe for naked aggression against a democratic European country you are clueless. That’s not Slava Ukraine, that’s looking at a menu of either cold spaghetti or shit and knowing which one you should eat.


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[gearhog]

36 minutes ago, Lawman said:

Because you are deliberately trying to create parallels where none exist and continuing to support disinformation and present it as fact of some kind of wider hidden western desire to cause/continue this war.

Narratives are not equal. You can acknowledge the existence of political or personal motivations to paint a picture without having to adopt the nonsense that somehow the Russian and Western narratives are leading to some sort of “truthful middle ground.”

The Russian narratives are bold faced lies. “We didn’t invade Crimea those are separatists.” “We didn’t shoot down MH17 because our forces weren’t there it was Ukrainians.” “We are conducting this war to de-nazify the Ukrainian government.” There is a demonstrated history SPECIFIC to this conflict and you pointing to any past instances of western history is an attempt to distract from that or give them a buffer to continue it.

If you think there is any kind of equivalency between western mass media and Russian you are clueless. Likewise if you can’t understand the nuance of providing support while accepting any Ukrainian’s skeletons in their closet as a lesser evil to emboldening/ignoring/rewarding a geo political foe for naked aggression against a democratic European country you are clueless. That’s not Slava Ukraine, that’s looking at a menu of either cold spaghetti or shit and knowing which one you should eat.

"There are no parallels" That's your defense? That's just denying reality. Water is Wet. Lawman: No, it isn't. What disinformation am I supporting? At least address it specifically instead of making general false claims. We've been in a continuous state of conflict since you and I were both young and you're trying to convince me that there isn't a Western desire to continue?

Again, where did I ever type "Russia didn't invade Crimea, those are sepratists"? Nazis? WTF are you talking about? Do you have any other tactic aside from pretending I said something I didn't and attacking it? Congrats for dunking on a lie you made up in first place...again.

And in the middle, you begin equivocating and switch to the argument "Well.... there's 'nuance'...." and "We should accept any Ukrainain skeletons in their closet." Make up your mind. It's either black and white/good and bad or it isn't. I've been saying all along it isn't. I don't have to accept the bad with the good. I can call bullshit whether it's coming from you or Mother Theresa.

Shit or spagehetti - yet another false dilemma. I don't have to eat either. All you have are these logical fallacies to make your case with. Figure it out.

Edited February 9, 2023 by gearhog

[Lawman]

"There are no parallels" That's your defense? That's just denying reality. Water is Wet. Lawman: No, it isn't. What disinformation am I supporting? At least address it specifically instead of making general false claims. We've been in a continuous state of conflict since you and I were both young and you're trying to convince me that there isn't a Western desire to continue?
Again, where did I ever type "Russia didn't invade Crimea, those are sepratists"? Nazis? WTF are you talking about? Do you have any other tactic aside from pretending I said something I didn't and attacking it? Congrats for dunking on a lie you made up in first place.
And in the middle, you switch to the argument "Well.... there's 'nuance'...." and "We should accept any Ukrainain skeletons in their closet." Make up your mind. It's either black and white/good and bad or it isn't. I've been saying all along it isn't. I don't have to accept the bad with the good. I can call bullshit whether it's coming from you or Mother Theresa.
Shit or spagehetti - yet another false dilemma. I don't have to eat either. All you have are these logical fallacies to make your case with. Figure it out.

No see there it is right at the very end.

Don’t do either… you won’t come out and just say what you mean which is walk away from supporting Ukraine and let Russia have its way.

You overtly avoid saying that because you know it’s not convincing to the room that knows better. You can’t support that directly so you make noise about how Ukraine is somehow the real unrecognized bad actor or how awful we’ve been in the past so we (US/NATO/West) should just excuse the Russians as they pursue their own. Interests. We have to be paralyzed by some sort of made up guilt. A “western desire to continue” as you say is a cornerstone of wider the Russian IO campaign. The one inserted into our own society as a method to erode any efforts against them in foreign policy.


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