Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[pawnman]

56 minutes ago, bfargin said:

Apples to oranges and even I know that. The Ukraine - Russia relationship is not like any relationship we've had as a nation beside possibly with England (though even thats not really the same). There were about 3 to 5 million Russians living in Ukraine before the war started. They speak the same language and were part of the same Nation (USSR) for many years. Not the same situation at all.

But, to play your game/question ... If we were about to be completely obliterated and the invader offered us a chance to keep most of the US intact but give back part of the region that already had many of "their people" living there, I'd negotiate peace.  

Russia also treated Ukraine pretty brutally and starved several million people there... maybe there's a reason Ukraine isn't in a hurry to surrender. 

[bfargin]

you guys are only ones saying surrender.

[pawnman]

2 minutes ago, bfargin said:

you guys are only ones saying surrender.

How do you think this ends? You think Zelensky just asks nicely and Putin removes all the troops? 

Every proposal I've seen from folks who say we should negotiate a settlement involves Ukraine giving up a bunch of land to Russia. And let's not forget this is the third attempt by Russia to take land from Ukraine in the last 20 years. I don't know why anyone would think Russia would stick to any negotiated settlement this time around. 

[bfargin]

32 minutes ago, pawnman said:

How do you think this ends? You think Zelensky just asks nicely and Putin removes all the troops? 

Every proposal I've seen from folks who say we should negotiate a settlement involves Ukraine giving up a bunch of land to Russia. And let's not forget this is the third attempt by Russia to take land from Ukraine in the last 20 years. I don't know why anyone would think Russia would stick to any negotiated settlement this time around. 

Not sure where it ends exactly, but if we keep going with the current plan I don't have much hope for Ukraine remaining as a nation and if they do, whats left will have 1/2 the population dead or permanently disabled.

All I'm saying is we need to reassess and work as hard as we can to negotiate the best peace agreement we can to save Ukraine. This war is def shaking up Russia but they have banded together and won't trust us for decades now. They have upped their in-house production capability and are even selling more oil to Europe than before we "closed" them off and they have more liquid cash than they had prior to the war. From what I've been reading (from European and American news sources) patriotism is up in Russia and they trust the West less than they have since 1989 when things began to crumble for the former USSR. They've banded together with China in a stronger relationship and the world seems less stable than it's been in a while. I'm not a policy expert or a bureaucrat and am not a fan of Putin but I hate to see a country used up and spit out when there are probably ways to establish peace (with some concessions that might not be perfect).

If Zalensky dies in battle soon, my skepticism of him might be proven wrong.  I don't trust his motives, and he's a biden type "leader" who is all about himself and enriching his own. Towards the end, when Ukraine is completely toast, I see him heading for Florida or Switzerland and moving into a nice comfortable mansion to spend some of the billions we've sent over as he lives out his comfortable existence (similar to other scumbags of the late 1900s...Suharto, Marco, Seko, Aleman, to name a few).

[uhhello]

1 hour ago, bfargin said:

you guys are only ones saying surrender.

You're right.  You said 'negotiate peace'.  

[uhhello]

37 minutes ago, bfargin said:

Not sure where it ends exactly, but if we keep going with the current plan I don't have much hope for Ukraine remaining as a nation and if they do, whats left will have 1/2 the population dead or permanently disabled.

All I'm saying is we need to reassess and work as hard as we can to negotiate the best peace agreement we can to save Ukraine. This war is def shaking up Russia but they have banded together and won't trust us for decades now. They have upped their in-house production capability and are even selling more oil to Europe than before we "closed" them off and they have more liquid cash than they had prior to the war. From what I've been reading (from European and American news sources) patriotism is up in Russia and they trust the West less than they have since 1989 when things began to crumble for the former USSR. They've banded together with China in a stronger relationship and the world seems less stable than it's been in a while. I'm not a policy expert or a bureaucrat and am not a fan of Putin but I hate to see a country used up and spit out when there are probably ways to establish peace (with some concessions that might not be perfect).

If Zalensky dies in battle soon, my skepticism of him might be proven wrong.  I don't trust his motives, and he's a biden type "leader" who is all about himself and enriching his own. Towards the end, when Ukraine is completely toast, I see him heading for Florida or Switzerland and moving into a nice comfortable mansion to spend some of the billions we've sent over as he lives out his comfortable existence (similar to other scumbags of the late 1900s...Suharto, Marco, Seko, Aleman, to name a few).

You keep saying you're not an expert or well read in the conflict but you're sure talking a lot of Russian internal workings like you are?  

[Best-22]

Russia launders propaganda through American news sources and people like Bfargin fall for it. Be careful where you get your news from people:

 

https://www.csis.org/analysis/exploring-information-laundering-ecosystem-russian-case

 

Claiming Russia is stronger now than before the war has the same energy as claiming the Earth is flat. 

[bfargin]

Well as I also mentioned I've been reading more recently and since I have a research background I can buzz through articles fairly quickly to see patterns and at least decently sort out some chaff. But I admit I'm not an expert or that knowledgable about all of the history behind the USSR and her satellite controlled countries/regions.

I'm just seeing more and more data that supports the idea that the end is not looking good for Ukraine in spite of what the West keeps saying. A sampling of world news is writing that it's a lot more dire for everyone than we like to think.

Maybe its worth it to us to destroy Ukraine while making Russia spend money like we did in Afghanistan and elsewhere. But we're broke and printing money like toilet paper too.

[Day Man]

2 hours ago, bfargin said:

more and more data

manchester

[raimius]

Some epic idiocy/trolling here.

But I'll bite, because this is the Internet!

--You claim "we" should negotiate to give up some of Ukraine.  Do you think maybe the Ukrainians should decide whether or not they want THEIR country?  They seem pretty willing to fight for it.

 

--You seem to think the nation that took massive casualties, is resorting to Iranian and North Korean weapons, has a ton of sanctions, had their most effective PMC mutiny, and is at a defensive stalemate on the battlefield is stronger now?  😂

 

You can debate how much money/arms the US should provide.  That's valid.  What you are doing is a mockery of intelligent questioning.

[bfargin]

1 hour ago, raimius said:

Some epic idiocy/trolling here.

But I'll bite, because this is the Internet!

--You claim "we" should negotiate to give up some of Ukraine.  Do you think maybe the Ukrainians should decide whether or not they want THEIR country?  They seem pretty willing to fight for it.

 

--You seem to think the nation that took massive casualties, is resorting to Iranian and North Korean weapons, has a ton of sanctions, had their most effective PMC mutiny, and is at a defensive stalemate on the battlefield is stronger now?  😂

 

You can debate how much money/arms the US should provide.  That's valid.  What you are doing is a mockery of intelligent questioning.

thanks for adding to the dumbassery.

[dream big]

17 hours ago, raimius said:

Some epic idiocy/trolling here.

But I'll bite, because this is the Internet!

--You claim "we" should negotiate to give up some of Ukraine.  Do you think maybe the Ukrainians should decide whether or not they want THEIR country?  They seem pretty willing to fight for it.

 

--You seem to think the nation that took massive casualties, is resorting to Iranian and North Korean weapons, has a ton of sanctions, had their most effective PMC mutiny, and is at a defensive stalemate on the battlefield is stronger now?  😂

 

You can debate how much money/arms the US should provide.  That's valid.  What you are doing is a mockery of intelligent questioning.

After the Billions of Dollars we invested in their counter offensive !? You are damn right we get a vote on the means to the outcome be it negotiations or other tools of foreign policy. 

[BashiChuni]

4 minutes ago, dream big said:

After the Billions of Dollars we invested in their counter offensive !? You are damn right we get a vote on the means to the outcome be it negotiations or other tools of foreign policy. 

god damn right. support comes with a price. we don't let ukraine dictate the national security policy of the united states.

a country which before the invasion was touted as the most corrupt in europe. but i bet they're squeaky clean now! and absolutely NO connection to the biden crime family!

[BashiChuni]

On 8/31/2023 at 7:50 PM, bfargin said:

Well as I also mentioned I've been reading more recently and since I have a research background I can buzz through articles fairly quickly to see patterns and at least decently sort out some chaff. But I admit I'm not an expert or that knowledgable about all of the history behind the USSR and her satellite controlled countries/regions.

I'm just seeing more and more data that supports the idea that the end is not looking good for Ukraine in spite of what the West keeps saying. A sampling of world news is writing that it's a lot more dire for everyone than we like to think.

Maybe its worth it to us to destroy Ukraine while making Russia spend money like we did in Afghanistan and elsewhere. But we're broke and printing money like toilet paper too.

ukraine is losing. there is no way they are able to defeat the russian bear.

which might set us up for a hot war with russia....something the elites want...and something that a few of you on here jerk off to

[bfargin]

Some of you def seem pretty obsessed with going to war with Russia. Every single questioning post on the wisdom of our current, obviously less than optimal, strategy and people claim someone’s a Putin stooge or Russian bot. I don’t see any benefit of continuing the current strategy.
 

We’re destabilizing current alliances, risking an escalated war, fostering the complete destruction of a sovereign nation, exacerbating our own financial crisis, and strengthening the alliance between our worlds current primary threat and Russia.
 

Maybe the world new sources are all bought and paid for and Russia really is about to collapse.  I’d love to see our strategy actually work for our benefit, but the most obvious endgame doesn’t appear to benefit anyone. I hope they (all the news outside of the US) are wrong and Ukraine wins.

Edited September 2, 2023 by bfargin

[pawnman]

2 hours ago, bfargin said:

Some of you def seem pretty obsessed with going to war with Russia. Every single questioning post on the wisdom of our current, obviously less than optimal, strategy and people claim someone’s a Putin stooge or Russian bot. I don’t see any benefit of continuing the current strategy.
 

We’re destabilizing current alliances, risking an escalated war, fostering the complete destruction of a sovereign nation, exacerbating our own financial crisis, and strengthening the alliance between our worlds current primary threat and Russia.
 

Maybe the world new sources are all bought and paid for and Russia really is about to collapse.  I’d love to see our strategy actually work for our benefit, but the most obvious endgame doesn’t appear to benefit anyone. I hope they (all the news outside of the US) are wrong and Ukraine wins.

I dont understand how anyone looks at the way NATO came together, and the addition of Finland and Sweden to NATO, and comes to the conclusion that those are weakened alliances...

Edited September 2, 2023 by pawnman

[raimius]

3 hours ago, bfargin said:

 

We’re destabilizing current alliances, risking an escalated war, fostering the complete destruction of a sovereign nation, exacerbating our own financial crisis, and strengthening the alliance between our worlds current primary threat and Russia.

-explain how NATO is destabilizing?

-Russia is trying to destroy a sovereign nation, not us.

-China has been fairly quiet throughout all this.  They seem to have mixed feelings.

[frog]

5 hours ago, bfargin said:

Words…

Dude, just stop.

There is an enormous amount of space to have an intelligent discussion of pragmatic U.S. options to support Ukraine to include offering no support whatsoever. That discussion is impossible to have with someone who uses secondhand Russian propaganda to develop their worldview.

 

[BashiChuni]

Hey remember when Biden got millions from Ukraine?

[Lord Ratner]

8 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

Hey remember when Biden got millions from Ukraine?

The problem is not that Ukraine bought the American vice president. The problem is that the American vice president was for sale.

There's not a country on earth that wouldn't make that deal. 

[bfargin]

When you have to stoop to Russian bot or propaganda accusations to “beat” a questioners post, you might be a zealot.
 I hope I’m wrong and the country with 36mil remaining citizens (~6 mil refugees) can beat the country with 143 million citizens.

I simply wondered aloud if we’re pursuing the best strategic policy, and you guys have assured me we are. I’ll quit watching world news and stick to CNN and Fox.

[raimius]

7 hours ago, bfargin said:

When you have to stoop to Russian bot or propaganda accusations to “beat” a questioners post, you might be a zealot.
 I hope I’m wrong and the country with 36mil remaining citizens (~6 mil refugees) can beat the country with 143 million citizens.

I simply wondered aloud if we’re pursuing the best strategic policy, and you guys have assured me we are. I’ll quit watching world news and stick to CNN and Fox.

No, dude.  You asked a bunch of strawman/loaded questions based off of one of the most clearly biased pro-russia American commentators and Russian aligned sources.  THAT is why so many called you out.  It's not zealotry when people criticize clearly biased and VERY often wrong sources.

Ukraine is fighting an existential war vs. Russia pursuing an entirely optional one.  That does mean something.  Additionally, UKR is getting a LOT of external support.  That doesn't mean they will win, but it does mean they do have a chance.

[BashiChuni]

https://dnyuz.com/2023/09/04/where-is-the-money-military-graft-becomes-a-headache-for-ukraine/

 

uh oh another "told ya so" moment

[BashiChuni]

19 hours ago, raimius said:

 

Ukraine is fighting an existential war vs. Russia pursuing an entirely optional one. 

so i agree with you from a western perspective.

but i'd imagine russia doesn't hold the same perspective. try to see the game thru your opponents eyes and not western ones.

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

so i agree with you from a western perspective.

but i'd imagine russia doesn't hold the same perspective. try to see the game thru your opponents eyes and not western ones.

So in Russia's eyes, this is an existential war that they started because...?