Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[gearhog]

1 minute ago, Lawman said:

Your exact statement “there isn’t enough time”

Those are your words as to why you don’t cull more sources to form a broad collective understanding (you know what we do in the intelligence disciplines).

So you’re going to waste that finite resources to listen to a podcast with direct ties to Russian media that has the aforementioned hosts on. Again, we don’t need to listen to Jones/Tucker/Maddow’s episode on a subject to understand the slants and bad research or blatant fabrications that will be baked into it. Because it isn’t news. Duran has exactly that problem only worse because of their direct ties to a geopolitical foe with an active IA campaign against NATO, Europe in general, and our own country/population. If you’re dumb enough to have to sit and listen too it in order to attempt to discover what’s real and what’s fake or highly corrupted in that, you’re wasting time, same as you’re doing here. But if you want to listen to Scott Ritter be interviewed in his opinions don’t waste the rest of your time here. You’ve got big important “facts” to discover.

I wasn't going to, but I am now. I want to see for myself what it is you're so afraid of. Actually, you do need to listen to something to understand it. Otherwise, aaagain.... you're only regurgitating someone else's conclusion.

As I said, we also have intel and propaganda campaigns. Would you say those are more or less robust than those of Russia? I say more. It's also a well documented fact that those tools have been used on our own citizens. I don't give the first flying fuck about any Russian politician, soldier, or citizen. The direct threat they pose to my life is insignificant compared to my own government and people who would advocate for censorship. And I'm definitely not going to allow them or you dictate to me what I can and can't think. Wish no one would listen to Duran? Wish in one hand, shit in the other, and see which one fills up first.

Perhaps you saw it, but I posted this earlier today. It's an excerpt taken from the The Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787. John Madison, June 29th. You should read some of it if your online bias check website deems it safe for you.

The means of defence against foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home. Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war, whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the people. It is perhaps questionable, whether the best concerted system of absolute power in Europe could maintain itself, in a situation, where no alarms of external danger could tame the people to the domestic yoke.

What I am suggesting here is nothing new. This was a big issue 237 years ago among our founding fathers as much as it was an issue a thousand years ago. That you so aggressively, yet naively assert that we have only the most noble of intentions on a rapidly growing list of conflicts is just proud ignorance. If I want the truth, I have to consider the perspective of someone on the outside looking in. I have a strong marriage of 26 years. Due in large part in our ability to listen and try to understand another perspective even though it may be flawed.

I'm not wasting my time here. The ideas I'm submitting are for your benefit least of all. You're unreachable. You can go listen to or not listen to whatever you want. Participate in your own delusional projection of calling other people shills while simultaneously engaging in it yourself. Do not care. What you are is a generic amalgamation of bad faith and bad reasoning. Sort of boiled down Great Value version of every neocon in position of power, and I have the opportunity challenge it. Some people may not agree, but I think it's going really well.

[nsplayr]

58 minutes ago, gearhog said:

I'm not wasting my time here.

My man, I say this with more experience than 69% of the people here...you abso-fucking-lutely are wasting your time here. I would know!

Edited April 24 by nsplayr

[Splash95]

I've listened to the Duran podcast a bit, likely because it got brought up here. It certainly takes the general viewpoint that things are going badly for Ukraine/The West and well for Russia. 99.8% of what I've read, heard and watched since 2022 takes the general viewpoint that things are going well for Ukraine/The West and badly for Russia. Wars will always be accompanied by propaganda on both sides. As someone predisposed to look at news from a pro-American (and certainly not pro-Russian) perspective when this all kicked off, I've become more aware day by day that the news getting blasted to essentially all Americans/Westerners who don't bother to dig deeper is often less reliable than purported. This assessment will not get me many upvotes, but gearhog and Bashi have a point.

[Lawman]

I've listened to the Duran podcast a bit, likely because it got brought up here. It certainly takes the general viewpoint that things are going badly for Ukraine/The West and well for Russia. 99.8% of what I've read, heard and watched since 2022 takes the general viewpoint that things are going well for Ukraine/The West and badly for Russia. Wars will always be accompanied by propaganda on both sides. As someone predisposed to look at news from a pro-American (and certainly not pro-Russian) perspective when this all kicked off, I've become more aware day by day that the news getting blasted to essentially all Americans/Westerners who don't bother to dig deeper is often less reliable than purported. This assessment will not get me many upvotes, but gearhog and Bashi have a point.

No… they don’t…

Again, the particular podcast in question is linked directly to Russian state sponsored media and has frequent guests that are so corrupted as to have registered under the foreign agents act or to have been flat disbarred/disgraced or fled western countries and now shill so as not to be extradited.

These aren’t viable/reliable sources of perspective just because they enjoy internet popularity. These are highly compromised individuals providing an outlet for a foreign power’s influence campaign which is designed to erode confidence and cause civil resistance and government disfunction.

And no… you don’t need to listen to a broad depth of content from an Alex Jones type character to know it’s nonsense and bullshit. Similarly you don’t need to listen to not just pro but deliberate government controlled/influenced media to “get the real story” or whatever other BS. That’s like choosing to eat what is clearly a turd in between two slices of bread to find out for sure if you do or don’t like the taste.


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[gearhog]

6 hours ago, nsplayr said:

My man, I say this with more experience than 69% of the people here...you abso-fucking-lutely are wasting your time here. I would know!

Yet here you are. Again. Claiming that participating in this forum is a waste while you, yourself, participate in the forum. How many times have you quit the forum forever now? 4,5? But I'm glad you're here. It means you read what I posted. I'm not asking expecting you to agree with it, only think about it.

4 hours ago, Lawman said:

No… they don’t…

Again, the particular podcast in question is linked directly to Russian state sponsored media and has frequent guests that are so corrupted as to have registered under the foreign agents act or to have been flat disbarred/disgraced or fled western countries and now shill so as not to be extradited.

These aren’t viable/reliable sources of perspective just because they enjoy internet popularity. These are highly compromised individuals providing an outlet for a foreign power’s influence campaign which is designed to erode confidence and cause civil resistance and government disfunction.

And no… you don’t need to listen to a broad depth of content from an Alex Jones type character to know it’s nonsense and bullshit. Similarly you don’t need to listen to not just pro but deliberate government controlled/influenced media to “get the real story” or whatever other BS. That’s like choosing to eat what is clearly a turd in between two slices of bread to find out for sure if you do or don’t like the taste.

That's like saying you can't listen to JRE because he's had murderers, anti-semites, drug-users, Jones, Tucker, and other critics of the government. You don't have to agree with any of it. The words aren't going to hurt you, but at the very least, you can learn and understand how words and language are being manipulated to influence you. Again, I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts. I now know and understand that your method of attempting to convince people to avoid content is not to address the content, but use name-calling, ridicule, ad-hominem, ad-nauseum, genetic fallacies, circular-arguments, generalization, appeal to authority, etc, etc, etc. You appear to have checklist for all the logical debate fallacies and are doing your best to check every single one. I'm not sure if you realize you're doing it. But it's fun to watch someone use the same disingenuous tactics to tell people why they shouldn't watch/listen/read someone else's disingenuous propaganda tactics.

You brought it up: Would you say your comments here are to promote government confidence, suppress civil resistance and support government function? What does that sound like to you?

 

[Lawman]

That's like saying you can't listen to JRE because he's had murderers, anti-semites, drug-users, Jones, Tucker, and other critics of the government. You don't have to agree with any of it. The words aren't going to hurt you, but at the very least, you can learn and understand how words and language are being manipulated to influence you. Again, I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts. I now know and understand that your method of attempting to convince people to avoid content is not to address the content, but use name-calling, ridicule, ad-hominem, ad-nauseum, genetic fallacies, circular-arguments, generalization, appeal to authority, etc, etc, etc. You appear to have checklist for all the logical debate fallacies and are doing your best to check every single one. I'm not sure if you realize you're doing it. But it's fun to watch someone use the same disingenuous tactics to tell people why they shouldn't watch/listen/read someone else's disingenuous propaganda tactics.
You brought it up: Would you say your comments here are to promote government confidence, suppress civil resistance and support government function? What does that sound like to you?
 

Just one example since you still can’t get it through your head what their guests are doing in that show and what they are advancing.

They have a 25 minute video advancing the narrative that Russia didn’t shoot down MH17 and attempting to discredit the unclassified investigation.

If you believe that it’s because you don’t have access to stuff some of us do, and you’re an idiot swallowing Russian disinformation in an attempt to build distrust.


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[nsplayr]

4 hours ago, gearhog said:

Yet here you are. Again. Claiming that participating in this forum is a waste while you, yourself, participate in the forum. How many times have you quit the forum forever now? 4,5? But I'm glad you're here. It means you read what I posted. I'm not asking expecting you to agree with it, only think about it.

Look, just because I’m a terrible addict doesn’t mean I can’t tell you that crack is bad.

You are 96.9% likely not convincing anyone of anything who didn’t already agree with you.

You’re also, IMHO, being both a weird contrarian AND a useful idiot for clear Russian IO propaganda, but that’s just my opinion. I admittedly haven’t read your entire library and carefully parsed the facts from the BS. And I don’t plan to.

There is absolutely room for debate on how, when, why and how much we should support Ukraine’s continued fight against the Russian invasion vs other possible policies we might choose instead. But not if the opening argument for that proposed policy change is based on what you heard on the PutinTV.net podcast, that’s just not gonna pass muster in this forum of what should be relatively informed mil personnel, nor should it.

Love you too though 😘

Edited April 24 by nsplayr

[BashiChuni]

12 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

Look, just because I’m a terrible addict doesn’t mean I can’t tell you that crack is bad.

You are 96.9% likely not convincing anyone of anything who didn’t already agree with you.

You’re also, IMHO, being both a weird contrarian AND a useful idiot for clear Russian IO propaganda, but that’s just my opinion. I admittedly haven’t read your entire library and carefully parsed the facts from the BS and I don’t plan to.

Love you too though 😘

this is such a tired trope.

correct the record for us then...is ukraine winning?

[nsplayr]

10 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

this is such a tired trope.

correct the record for us then...is ukraine winning?

Hold on, let me check JuannaBlowMe.net for the latest “unfiltered truth data” from the battlefield…

Or maybe there’s another 4 hour podcast with 3 blurry guys from Cyprus that has some intel I’m not seeing at work?

F off man, this is not a debate worth having with you Chang. I hope you can pay for your next set of knee pads in rubles once your current set wears out. 

Edited April 24 by nsplayr

[Biff_T]

Russia is cold and gay....it also sucks.  

[gearhog]

2 hours ago, Lawman said:

Just one example since you still can’t get it through your head what their guests are doing in that show and what they are advancing.

They have a 25 minute video advancing the narrative that Russia didn’t shoot down MH17 and attempting to discredit the unclassified investigation.

If you believe that it’s because you don’t have access to stuff some of us do, and you’re an idiot swallowing Russian disinformation in an attempt to build distrust.

All 172 pages of this thread pertain to the conflict between Russia and Ukraine. That conflict has been going on for over 2 years now. For much of that time, you're calling everyone who is critical of our support for the conflict shills for Russia. I've pressed you for two pages now to cough up an example. Finally, you relented. Sometime in the last few hours, you had to go searching the internet for one. How much time did you spend?

What did you ultimately come up with? That someone on that podcast called into question the downing of MH17. YGBFSM. An event that happened 10 years ago and completely irrelevant to this entire thread. That's it? That's the finest example of Russian disinformation in the context of the Rus-Ukr war you could come up with? You didn't even know it existed until today, and you had to go looking for it. I even conceded that most of RT could be propaganda. Hell, even I could give you 10 better examples of Russian disinfo that actually pertain to our discussion. But citing that as the slam dunk "Gotcha!" should be embarrassing for you. But I know it's not.

This debate is going circular. You don't like where some people get their information. Boo-hoo. What are you going to do about it? Nothing. But what if you could? If there was a big red button on your desk that prevented people from listening to the Duran podcast, would you push it?

1 hour ago, nsplayr said:

You are 96.9% likely not convincing anyone of anything who didn’t already agree with you.

You’re also, IMHO, being both a weird contrarian AND a useful idiot for clear Russian IO propaganda, but that’s just my opinion. I admittedly haven’t read your entire library and carefully parsed the facts from the BS. And I don’t plan to.

There is absolutely room for debate on how, when, why and how much we should support Ukraine’s continued fight against the Russian invasion vs other possible policies we might choose instead. But not if the opening argument for that proposed policy change is based on what you heard on the PutinTV.net podcast, that’s just not gonna pass muster in this forum of what should be relatively informed mil personnel, nor should it.

Love you too though 😘

Your opinion is duly noted. And disregarded. If you believe there is room for debate on why and how much we should support Ukraine.... WTF do you think it is that we're doing here? Arguing for the sake of arguing? What is the opening argument that was heard on the Podcast? You just created another strawman. BC never cited any specific claim that originated from that podcast. He just said it was a good listen. Don't think so? Piss and moan all you want.

[Lawman]

Your opinion is duly noted. And disregarded. If you believe there is room for debate on why and how much we should support Ukraine.... WTF do you think it is that we're doing here? Arguing for the sake of arguing? What is the opening argument that was heard on the Podcast? You just created another strawman. BC never cited any specific claim that originated from that podcast. He just said it was a good listen. Don't think so? Piss and moan all you want.

He’s been advancing that point on cross talk and other media for multiple years. Man let’s go check out his podcast I’m sure it’s full of hitter facts.

You believe it don’t you. Like you’re gullible enough to think Russia didn’t shoot down an airliner. You’re making the absurd complaint that until we drink from the knowledge stream you drink from we can’t know it’s piss. No we in fact do know it’s piss from having better upstream understanding of what’s in that water, we’ve been telling you it’s piss. It was piss before and it’ll be piss tomorrow. You’re refusing to acknowledge its piss because you happen to like this flavor and demanding we all pretend you aren’t in fact drinking piss.


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[gearhog]

51 minutes ago, Lawman said:

 it’s piss.  it’s piss.  it’s piss. It was piss before and it’ll be piss tomorrow. its piss. drinking piss.

11 hours ago, Lawman said:

like choosing to eat what is clearly a turd in between two slices of bread

What is wrong with you. I don't think Russian disinformation is your biggest problem. 🤣

 

Edited April 24 by gearhog

[M2]

I'm only here for Biff_T's posts!! 😗

[Lord Ratner]

16 hours ago, nsplayr said:

My man, I say this with more experience than 69% of the people here...you abso-fucking-lutely are wasting your time here. I would know!

I think that just says more about you and how you approach the conversation. That's not to say that you don't get some fairly absurdist abuse thrown your way, but if you haven't been able to hone and adapt your positions based on the information and data on this forum, then you're on a team.

I'll be honest, I respect that you continue to engage, and about 75% of the time you do it in a respectful manner (I consider that a very high percentage for internet conversation. I don't think I meet that standard). But I have found your arguments to be fairly cookie cutter, cheerleader type DNC stuff. Rarely compelling, and I am not even remotely a die-hard conservative. I think a part of that might be that since you are a political minority here, you are usually on the defensive and that makes it very hard to concede any ground to the other side. It's not a unique phenomenon.

And yes, I absolutely believe there are people here who fit that description but from the conservative side. Pretty much anyone who defends Donald Trump's character probably falls into that category.

 

You could just be a true believer, but it is rare to find someone on either side who so neatly fits into the political party positions.

 

I only bring this up because I get the sense from gearhog that he is legitimately interested in honing his own beliefs and incorporating as much new data into them as possible. Even though I do not agree with a lot of his conclusions. That's the value I get from this board as well. I get the sense that you believe your positions are already perfected. At least that's how you communicate them. In that case, yeah you are definitely wasting your time.

Edited April 24 by Lord Ratner

[Boomer6]

Are what ifs open?

What if...we had the ability to edit a post to add additional BS. Instead of making 3 back to back posts of BS 🤔

[gearhog]

2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

II only bring this up because I get the sense from gearhog that he is legitimately interested in honing his own beliefs and incorporating as much new data into them as possible. Even though I do not agree with a lot of his conclusions. That's the value I get from this board as well. I get the sense that you believe your positions are already perfected. At least that's how you communicate them. In that case, yeah you are definitely wasting your time.

That is how I feel about it. This forum could probably be a 20+ year record of my constantly shifting beliefs. What I posted back in 2002 with regard to how I felt about my career, US foreign policy, conflict was definitely much different than it is now. I've become less pragmatic and more of an idealist. I have a lot of scribbled notes on my desk, but one reads Wisdom and Knowledge, Courage, Humanity, Justice, Temperance, Transcendence. The six character traits of strength and virtue. I believe I suck at all of those things compared to where I think I should be. There are a lot of people I admire that exemplify those traits, but some of them actually worked and debated for years, often bitterly,  to create a framework for an entire nation based on those traits. Maybe seeing it dismantled is what raises my ire. Maybe I have a disdain for people who are willfully ignorant that we in the US don't get to stay awesome without addressing the greater threats to our way of life.

Russia hasn't tried to abridge my freedom of speech by working with media outlets to push one narrative while censoring others.

Russia hasn't shown up to American's homes to inquire about their social media posts.

Russia hasn't lately tried to curtail my right to bear arms.

Russia doesn't have a legal policy allowing for warrantless searches and monitoring of American citizens.

Russia didn't try to coerce me into taking a dangerous experimental vaccine.

Russia didn't threaten my job if I didn't

Russia didn't weaponize the US Justice system.

Russia didn't devalue my savings.

Russia didn't charge me more than twice the average American income in taxes.

Russia didn't send our earnings to foreign governments and defense corporations.

Russia didn't indebt my grandchildren with insane spending.

Russia isn't simultaneously funding the expansion of multiple large-scale conflicts that threatens to involve people I care about.

Russia didn't try to get me to comply with zero-emission climate change goals.

Russia didn't intentionally create an immigration crisis.

I could go on for days about what Russia didn't do, but I could easily summarize their share of the direct threat being posed to my way of life right now, where I sit: 1%. So hearing someone bitch about an unspecified bit of false information the Russian government may slipped into an obscure podcast could be making me a tad irritable. I should be better. 😄

[DirkDiggler]

In a spot of good news, the new aid bill for Ukraine (amongst others) was signed; hopefully they get the new weapons/supplies rolling forward quickly.

Biden signs $95 billion aid package with assistance for Ukraine, Israel, Taiwan. Calls for TikTok ban or sale | AP News

[nsplayr]

1 hour ago, gearhog said:

That is how I feel about it.

Good thing you’re not a mil officer then! You seem to genuinely not like America very much. No mention that Russians have no rights under Putin other than what he allows. The brazen murders around the globe. Invading neighboring countries, etc.

🇺🇸 I for one find is to be the good guys the vast majority of the time despite our faults and I have hope for an even better future. I plan to work toward that rather than wallow in our faults and apologize for enemies. To each his own I guess!

[Swizzle]

6 hours ago, M2 said:

I'm only here for Biff_T's posts!! 😗

Did you 'dibs' Biff just now!?

[gearhog]

11 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

Good thing you’re not a mil officer then! You seem to genuinely not like America very much. No mention that Russians have no rights under Putin other than what he allows. The brazen murders around the globe. Invading neighboring countries, etc.

🇺🇸 I for one find is to be the good guys the vast majority of the time despite our faults and I have hope for an even better future. I plan to work toward that rather than wallow in our faults and apologize for enemies. To each his own I guess!

This dumb shit again? You guys are incapable of learning.

Edited April 25 by gearhog

[nsplayr]

5 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

But I have found your arguments to be fairly cookie cutter, cheerleader type DNC stuff. Rarely compelling, and I am not even remotely a die-hard conservative.

I have given lengthy, insanely lengthy, explanations and justifications for my views on numerous political and non political topics over literally 15+ years posting here. If this is what you take away, it’s more proof that it was all a massive waste of time! Thank you for confirming my belief that this is all a bad habit that we’d all be better off doing less of.

The truth is my beliefs have changed over time just like anyone else, but also that my values remain relatively stable and those values lead me to overwhelmingly support liberal, Democratic policies rather than ones proposed by the conservatives, libertarians, socialists, etc.

Believe it or not that’s a perfectly reasonable POV to have, just like it’s perfectly reasonable to be 69% consistently conservative GOP, libertarian, or grouchy contrarian and “politically homeless” like most of y’all here are.

Also believe it or not all of this type of conversation is much more effectively had in person. It works so much better when talking to my friends of all political stripes in person, over a late night shift or a beer. As you pointed out, too many people are miserable assholes online even more so than in real life. I try not to be too often, but hey, sometimes it’s hard (sts).

My resolution, although it hasn’t always been kept, is to stop typing political stuff here and to take those thoughts to places where they’re more productively heard and where I can better appreciate other peoples points of view - in person. Or just to STFU and talk about normal stuff like cars, airplanes, kids, sports, etc. Politics is a new national pastime 24/7/364 and honestly the whole country is worse off for it.

Back to step 1 on my BO.net AA journey, “I am powerless over my desire to talk politics with you miserable bastards here, and that waste of time and effort has become unmanageable.” 🤣

[gearhog]

1 minute ago, nsplayr said:

I have given lengthy, insanely lengthy, explanations and justifications for my views on numerous political and non political topics over literally 15+ years posting here. If this is what you take away, it’s more proof that it was all a massive waste of time! Thank you for confirming my belief that this is all a bad habit that we’d all be better off doing less of.

The truth is my beliefs have changed over time just like anyone else, but also that my values remain relatively stable and those values lead me to overwhelmingly support liberal, Democratic policies rather than ones proposed by the conservatives, libertarians, socialists, etc.

Believe it or not that’s a perfectly reasonable POV to have, just like it’s perfectly reasonable to be 69% consistently conservative GOP, libertarian, or grouchy contrarian and “politically homeless” like most of y’all here are.

Also believe it or not all of this type of conversation is much more effectively had in person. It works so much better when talking to my friends of all political stripes in person, over a late night shift or a beer. As you pointed out, too many people are miserable assholes online even more so than in real life. I try not to be too often, but hey, sometimes it’s hard (sts).

My resolution, although it hasn’t always been kept, is to stop typing political stuff here and to take those thoughts to places where they’re more productively heard and where I can better appreciate other peoples points of view - in person. Or just to STFU and talk about normal stuff like cars, airplanes, kids, sports, etc. Politics is a new national pastime 24/7/364 and honestly the whole country is worse off for it.

Back to step 1 on my BO.net AA journey, “I am powerless over my desire to talk politics with you miserable bastards here, and that waste of time and effort has become unmanageable.” 🤣

How many times are you tell everyone on BO.net about how bad posting on BO.net is? Give it a rest.

[Lawman]

This dumb shit again? You guys are incapable of learning.

You know you can be critical of your government without seeking out and deliberately defending a foreign opponents propaganda right?

You don’t have to go full tit on backwards crazy and deny it’s propaganda demanding people show you examples of how some source you’ve been listening too is actually bullshit only to then claim that those examples don’t count or deny any proof of connection to that foreign power.

Also wrestling is fake. I know you’re gonna need to watch it to make sure, but maybe just try trusting 2nd hand info on this.


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[nsplayr]

1 hour ago, gearhog said:

Give it a rest.

🫡 you too bud