Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[BashiChuni]

https://apnews.com/article/biden-ukraine-long-range-weapons-russia-52d424158182de2044ecc8bfcf011f9c

very irresponsible from the "biden" administration.

 

hopefully we can avoid WW3 until trump takes over and the "adults are back in the room"

 

[uhhello]

I thought I read somewhere that Trump was in favor of removing weapons restrictions on UKR in order to further his peace plan?  Maybe I didn't.  I can't find anything actually quoting him. 

[BashiChuni]

trump is on record wanting to end the war in ukraine quickly.

[uhhello]

17 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

trump is on record wanting to end the war in ukraine quickly.

Yup.  No disagreement there.  My question was of his stance on restrictions placed on US provided weapons.  

I've searched to the end of internet and can't find any quotes so I think I made it up.

Edited Tuesday at 12:42 AM by uhhello

[Lawman]

Yup.  No disagreement there.  My question was of his stance on restrictions placed on US provided weapons.  
I've searched to the end of internet and can't find any quotes so I think I made it up.

A lot of Trump’s proxy voices have said as much but I’ve never seen anything official come out of his statements.

Basically it’s portrayed as being the carrot or a VERY big stick to negotiate with.


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[8BC]

I understand myself to be a simpleton, attack me as such.

There is now great concern that Ukraine will use US provided missile systems to strike into Russian territory.

Wait, what?  But I am a Simpleton.

We either sold or gave long range missile systems to somebody and now that somebody wants to use them but we somehow feel we now still get a vote?  Hello!  They bought them or have them.  They can use them any way that they want.  It’s why they now have the military hardware. We may not politically agree, fear of escalation, but that should now be behind us, or otherwise we should not have given them access to the hardware in the first  place.

As a thought, were these missile systems acquired by Ukraine before or after the Russian invasion?  Maybe it matters in esoteric, or maybe not.

Ford Motor Car Company does not restrict how I use my truck or where I can drive it.  How can the US place restrictions on Ukraine for how they choose to use weapon systems we gave/sold them.  Why else would Ukraine have long range missile systems, if not to use them?  If this is now a problem, perhaps we should not have gave/sold them the systems in the first place.

Common man’s perspective to a complex issue. Just something to think about. 

[Lord Ratner]

49 minutes ago, 8BC said:

I understand myself to be a simpleton, attack me as such.

There is now great concern that Ukraine will use US provided missile systems to strike into Russian territory.

Wait, what?  But I am a Simpleton.

We either sold or gave long range missile systems to somebody and now that somebody wants to use them but we somehow feel we now still get a vote?  Hello!  They bought them or have them.  They can use them any way that they want.  It’s why they now have the military hardware. We may not politically agree, fear of escalation, but that should now be behind us, or otherwise we should not have given them access to the hardware in the first  place.

As a thought, were these missile systems acquired by Ukraine before or after the Russian invasion?  Maybe it matters in esoteric, or maybe not.

Ford Motor Car Company does not restrict how I use my truck or where I can drive it.  How can the US place restrictions on Ukraine for how they choose to use weapon systems we gave/sold them.  Why else would Ukraine have long range missile systems, if not to use them?  If this is now a problem, perhaps we should not have gave/sold them the systems in the first place.

Common man’s perspective to a complex issue. Just something to think about. 

The Ford analogy is flawed. You get to keep the truck after you drive somewhere. 

 

This would more be like you using an Uber to go commit a sexual assault. And then Uber bands you from using them in the future. 

Selling weapons with conditions is nothing new. I'm not saying we should or shouldn't restrict what they do, but the idea that we have no right to limit how they are used ignores the fact that they need a hell of a lot more than one shipment.

[Lawman]

The Ford analogy is flawed. You get to keep the truck after you drive somewhere. 
 
This would more be like you using an Uber to go commit a sexual assault. And then Uber bands you from using them in the future. 
Selling weapons with conditions is nothing new. I'm not saying we should or shouldn't restrict what they do, but the idea that we have no right to limit how they are used ignores the fact that they need a hell of a lot more than one shipment.

Geo-fencing is not a new concept, and we discussed it way back earlier in this thread.

Though with a total post count in the single digits I doubt this is any sort of normal post to just suddenly join in the conversation with.


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[8BC]

10 minutes ago, Lawman said:

Geo-fencing is not a new concept, and we discussed it way back earlier in this thread.

Though with a total post count in the single digits I doubt this is any sort of normal post to just suddenly join in the conversation with.


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Fair assessment of my posting history, I acknowledge and respect, but 8+ years on this forum of reading but keeping most of my thoughts and opinions to myself. There are already many contributors with strong opinions. My apologies if you think I missed the previous Geo-fencing discussion, not the case, but I thought my position to be worth posting this time. 

I can agree with the previous that the Ford analogy may be more correct with Uber vs. ownership.

Many good discussions here, just few that need another pundit’s opinion until I feel the need to weigh in on.  No disrespect, just my opinion.  

[bfargin]

Interesting summary presented.

https://x.com/LionelMedia/status/1858588723488678073

i still say we should help negotiate a ceasefire immediately and treat Russia with a little more respect. Putin was wrong to invade, but in my opinion we are also more than a little bit culpable in how all of this has evolved.

[Marshall]

Another single-digit poster here with another flawed analogy. Back in the time, the 50s through 80s, proxy wars were somewhat of a trend. The US and it's people never seemed to be standing against supplying all there is to anyone if it was used against a-then-opposing-force just to make sure the aforementioned force looses as much assets as possible. Just like the opposing force itself was sending their equipment and personnel anywhere from South-East Asia to South and Central America. Yes, the world was somewhat tense about the potential nuclear breakout, and yet, the assets were lost by both sides, dogfights took place with confirmed nationals of the both countries as participants, yet somehow, no one has ever made such big of a deal out of it as if it could have triggered the WW3.

But wait a minute, that then-opposing-force appears to be the same problem once again. How is it different from what it used to be back in the day? The only difference is that back in the day the USSR, indeed, had something to oppose to the US, whereas nowadays the so-called Russia, nominally having all those soviet nukes, in fact, after 30 years of all-around corruption, has lost a better part of all the golden age progress. I myself am a humble witness to this, having seen those ICBMs submerged in their silos around Vnukovo back in the early 2000s. The other day it was the 1000-th day of a 72-hour operation in Ukraine, how much more proof do you people want?

BTW, not so much of a single-digit poster, just couldn't recover my account from 2007, old folk can remember me as a Russian trying to get in the Air Force. Spoiler - never got in, flying civilian.

[Stoker]

22 hours ago, bfargin said:

Interesting summary presented.

https://x.com/LionelMedia/status/1858588723488678073

i still say we should help negotiate a ceasefire immediately and treat Russia with a little more respect. Putin was wrong to invade, but in my opinion we are also more than a little bit culpable in how all of this has evolved.

Should Britain have cut a deal with Germany in 1940?

[BashiChuni]

46 minutes ago, Stoker said:

Should Britain have cut a deal with Germany in 1940?

apples to oranges.

[Stoker]

11 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

apples to oranges.

Can you explain why Britain was right to fight on in a seemingly hopeless war, alone, against a superior power, but the Ukrainians are wrong to do so?