Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[Stoker]

15 hours ago, bfargin said:

Are you a fifth grader?

You know your argument is sound when your best expression of it is that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid.

Edited Thursday at 10:56 PM by Stoker

[bfargin]

I’m just amazed at how leadership is so happy/eager to get back into a Cold War (or worse) type relationship with Russia. We’ll never trust each other totally, but there really is no need to be actual enemies. We’re like the dumb ass tourists you see at Yellowstone walking up to a Bison or a Grizzly just for shits and grins.

Negotiate peace and stability!

[BashiChuni]

4 hours ago, HeloDude said:

The Ukrainians aren’t wrong to fight…we’re just wrong to spend hundreds of billions of dollars (via debt) to help them fight.  If the Ukrainians want to keep fighting using their own resources, then should definitely go for it.

especially after pissing away lives and treasure the past two decades in forever middle east wars.

some of you are SO eager to get right back into it.

[Lord Ratner]

3 hours ago, bfargin said:

I’m just amazed at how leadership is so happy/eager to get back into a Cold War (or worse) type relationship with Russia. We’ll never trust each other totally, but there really is no need to be actual enemies. We’re like the dumb ass tourists you see at Yellowstone walking up to a Bison or a Grizzly just for shits and grins.

Negotiate peace and stability!

You make it sound like they've been holding out an olive branch for decades and we just keep spitting in their face. Russia and China have been poking and prodding at our weaknesses and vulnerabilities for at least two decades. 

 

Y'all have some serious self-loathing I just don't understand.

[bfargin]

Self loathing?? Where do you see self loathing in anything written by people here who’d like to see an end to the war??

Im advocating for an acknowledgement that both Russia’s leadership and our’s should take a minute and see if peace can’t be arranged.

[gearhog]

7 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

You make it sound like they've been holding out an olive branch for decades and we just keep spitting in their face. Russia and China have been poking and prodding at our weaknesses and vulnerabilities for at least two decades.

Y'all have some serious self-loathing I just don't understand.

The reason you cannot understand it is because you're mis-identifying a loathing of poor leadership, foreign policy, and intervention as a loathing of "self". I'm gonna go out a limb and say not one member of this forum "loathes" the United States of America. I'd say everyone here loves it, and wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

It's insulting for you to say that those of us who do not want to see a continuous escalation of this conflict and others, who don't want more of our taxes and national treasure pissed away, who critique and question the policies/actions taken by leadership on behalf of me and my country is "self-loathing". It's actually the opposite.

Surely, you were deployed, probably multiple times, in your career. I got to see all of IRQ, AFG, part of SYR, (countries we invaded) waste $trillions, countless lives lost, and then shamefully walk away leaving the countries in worse shape than we found them. I was all in, just like you at the beginning. But I try to do a little after action, reflecting upon and learning from our mistakes. I could argue that the actual self-loathing would be standing by as an ineffectual as the same leadership subjects yourself, your family, and your country to the same misadventures all over again.

[Lord Ratner]

There's a lot going on in here, so I'll try to break it apart for clarity. 

1 hour ago, gearhog said:

The reason you cannot understand it is because you're mis-identifying a loathing of poor leadership, foreign policy, and intervention as a loathing of "self". I'm gonna go out a limb and say not one member of this forum "loathes" the United States of America. I'd say everyone here loves it, and wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

America is a state, not just an ideal. Obviously we all love the ideal set forth by the founders, but what America is-and-does today is part of America, and in this case, the "self" we are referring to. "Us" is the more appropriate word, but we do not normally say "us-loathing." The past is nothing more than a memory. America (and thus "us/self") is what we are doing as a nation today. Something a handful of posters here portray in a very negative, and thus self-loathing manner. 

8 hours ago, bfargin said:

Self loathing?? Where do you see self loathing in anything written by people here who’d like to see an end to the war??

On 11/19/2024 at 4:50 PM, bfargin said:

treat Russia with a little more respect.

The implication here is that we are being disrespectful. Laughable. Russia and China have violated every possible concept of peace and comity short of an actual kinetic attack against us. They are enemies. That doesn't mean we have to attack them militarily, and there is an entire valid argument over the pure financial decision to fund Ukraine. But bfargin, Bashi, and a few others repeatedly veer into some variation of we brought this on to ourselves. That's self-loathing. 

1 hour ago, gearhog said:

It's insulting for you to say that those of us who do not want to see a continuous escalation of this conflict and others, who don't want more of our taxes and national treasure pissed away, who critique and question the policies/actions taken by leadership on behalf of me and my country is "self-loathing". It's actually the opposite.

See above. Also note: I did not reply to you when I said self-loathing. As far as I can remember, you have kept mostly to the financial argument, where we disagree, but not to blame the US. And if I recall you were very critical of Putin in his interview with Tucker claiming this was all the West's fault. But for simplicity and clarity, do you believe we provoked Russia into their "special operation" against Ukraine? By "provoked" I mean to say that Russia's invasion is in any part justified by our actions prior to the invasion. 

 

1 hour ago, gearhog said:

Surely, you were deployed, probably multiple times, in your career. I got to see all of IRQ, AFG, part of SYR, (countries we invaded) waste $trillions, countless lives lost, and then shamefully walk away leaving the countries in worse shape than we found them. I was all in, just like you at the beginning. But I try to do a little after action, reflecting upon and learning from our mistakes.

Putting our misadventures in the Middle East into the same bucket as Russia/Ukraine is to reduce foreign policy/intervention so much as to have no useful argument at all. There is almost zero comparison between the nation-building fiascos in Iraq and Afghanistan with the defense of an "ally" (we can argue that elsewhere) against an adversary. They were different operations with different goals and different cultures and different international considerations with different forms of intervention and different price tags in both blood and treasure. If you learned that we have feckless leadership and shifting attention and prideful generals and difficulties committing, then great, you've uncovered all the weaknesses of democratic governance. But no one is doing it better. No one. Surely you noticed that in your travels, as I did. 

 

1 hour ago, gearhog said:

I could argue that the actual self-loathing would be standing by as an ineffectual as the same leadership subjects yourself, your family, and your country to the same misadventures all over again.

I have no patience for redefining terms. You can be a moron and make every bad decision in the world and still love yourself. You can be doing a bang-up job and still self-loathe. Lets not play the semantic games every fuckwad professor since Derrida plays in trying to win an argument by pissing on the dictionary. You're better than that. Bashi is not. 

Edited 20 hours ago by Lord Ratner
Got the wrong French psuedo-philosopher mixed up.

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

 we brought this on to ourselves.  WITH RESPECT TO UKRAINE...WE DID. THE CURRENT CIA DIRECTOR WARNED ABOUT IT 20 YEARS AGO

 do you believe we provoked Russia into their "special operation" against Ukraine? By "provoked" I mean to say that Russia's invasion is in any part justified by our actions prior to the invasion.  WITHOUT QUESTION THE FACTS SAY YES

 

Putting our misadventures in the Middle East into the same bucket as Russia/Ukraine is to reduce foreign policy/intervention so much as to have no useful argument at all. There is almost zero comparison between the nation-building fiascos in Iraq and Afghanistan with the defense of an "ally" (we can argue that elsewhere) against an adversary. They were different operations with different goals. POINT TAKEN. PARTIALLY VALID. HOWEVER UKRAINE IS NOT A NATO ALLY AND WE HAVE NO NATIONAL SECURITY INTERESTS IN UKRAINE (UNTIL THE VP's SON GOT CAUGHT UP IN DIRTY UKRAINE GAS DEALINGS AND THE VP HAD A UKRANIAN PROSECUTOR FIRED...

 

Bashi is not. THANK YOU. MAYBE IF I DID ACSC IN CORRESPONDENCE I'D UNDERSTAND BETTER

 

[BashiChuni]

i cannot wait for Trump to shut down this ukraine misadventure.

[BashiChuni]

11 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

You make it sound like they've been holding out an olive branch for decades and we just keep spitting in their face. Russia and China have been poking and prodding at our weaknesses and vulnerabilities for at least two decades. 

 

Y'all have some serious self-loathing I just don't understand.

russia wanted to join nato. rebuffed.

russia wanted a peace deal. the US scuttled it.

russia warned us not to keep advancing nato east. rebuffed.

russia warned us that ukraine joining nato was a red line. we plowed full steam ahead in 2008...disregarding warnings from Germany and France AND our own CIA.

 

these are facts and they are undisputed. the facts are the US has been poking russia in the eye since 1990s because we can.

[SurelySerious]

russia wanted to join nato. rebuffed.
russia wanted a peace deal. the US scuttled it.
russia warned us not to keep advancing nato east. rebuffed.
russia warned us that ukraine joining nato was a red line. we plowed full steam ahead in 2008...disregarding warnings from Germany and France AND our own CIA.
 
these are facts and they are undisputed. the facts are the US has been poking russia in the eye since 1990s because we can.

This is how we know you’re delusional in a basement somewhere. Collective defense against Russia is the main reason NATO exists. Having them join would be inviting the fox to guard the henhouse; they would be able to obstruct anything they want, just like they do on the UN Security Council. Do you get paid for this nonsense?

[gearhog]

3 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

America is a state, not just an ideal. Obviously we all love the ideal set forth by the founders, but what America is-and-does today is part of America, and in this case, the "self" we are referring to. "Us" is the more appropriate word, but we do not normally say "us-loathing." The past is nothing more than a memory. America (and thus "us/self") is what we are doing as a nation today. Something a handful of posters here portray in a very negative, and thus self-loathing manner.

My friend, if you wouldn't mind, could you possibly provide me with a single solitary instance from any reference you feel is credible of a "self-loathing" definition that even slightly includes the criticism of one's nation/government/etc?

3 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

I have no patience for redefining terms. You can be a moron and make every bad decision in the world and still love yourself. You can be doing a bang-up job and still self-loathe. Lets not play the semantic games every fuckwad professor since Derrida plays in trying to win an argument by pissing on the dictionary. You're better than that. Bashi is not. 

You have no patience for it... yet you created a definition for it that is found nowhere outside of this conversation, and invented another term that doesn't exist (us-loathing). You can't have it both ways, brother.

You're attempting to collectivize all things America is and does so that anytime anyone has a criticism, you can accuse them of "loathing" their own nation. You have plenty of grievances yourself. Does that mean you loathe America?

Me, Bashi, You, and everyone else should be allowed to vehemently express our disapproval with the actions of a handful of people that have the make decisions for us with out being accused of hating our Nation. They are not America.

4 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

But bfargin, Bashi, and a few others repeatedly veer into some variation of we brought this on to ourselves. That's self-loathing.

No, it isn't. If you strike a match and light the woods on fire and the neighborhood burns down because of it, there is no "we brought this on ourselves" simply because we live in the same place. You fucked up.

4 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

See above. Also note: I did not reply to you when I said self-loathing. As far as I can remember, you have kept mostly to the financial argument, where we disagree, but not to blame the US. And if I recall you were very critical of Putin in his interview with Tucker claiming this was all the West's fault. But for simplicity and clarity, do you believe we provoked Russia into their "special operation" against Ukraine? By "provoked" I mean to say that Russia's invasion is in any part justified by our actions prior to the invasion.

Nope. I've given a dozen reasons for being against the conflict. The financial aspect being one of them. Absolutely I'm critical of Putin. You know I can write, and I could write a book on why Putin sucks and Russia is a worse place to live, but who cares? I'm not in Russia. If I were to give you the options "It's all Russia's fault, It's all the USA's fault, or some amount of fault lies on both sides", which would you choose? To directly answer your question, I 100% absolutely without a doubt believe we made mistakes along the way that Russia used as justification. Doesn't mean they were right, it just makes it a little more difficult to say they were wrong.

We (this time I do mean me and the rest of the country) are both paying dearly for mistakes made on both sides. It's past time to negotiate an end. Where the hell to you think the current trajectory is taking us? Russia has nukes, and demonstrated yesterday they can deliver them at Mach 14. Yeah, so can we... but what you're hoping for is a Pyrrhic victory at best. I get a little amped over this because I have a big family, kids, and now grandkids. I've participated in conflicts myself and had no real concerns over my own well-being. But if someone becomes a threat or creates a risk to the people I care about, I am violently offended. The way I see it, Russia doesn't pose a direct threat or risk to them. The actions of our leaders do, so I feel compelled to speak about it.

 

[gearhog]

Trump summons NATO’s Rutte to Mar-a-lago to get a peace deal. 
 

[BashiChuni]

6 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

This is how we know you’re delusional in a basement somewhere. Collective defense against Russia is the main reason NATO exists. Having them join would be inviting the fox to guard the henhouse; they would be able to obstruct anything they want, just like they do on the UN Security Council. Do you get paid for this nonsense?

because in 1990 we fucking beat them and the cold war was over. it was us vs the soviets not us vs russia

[SurelySerious]

because in 1990 we ing beat them and the cold war was over. it was us vs the soviets not us vs russia

I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but Putin is the Soviets. They never went away.

[BashiChuni]

2 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but Putin is the Soviets. They never went away.

NATO existed to fight the soviet union. when the cold war ended, and russia was broke, they wanted to join europe. we vehemently said no.

that is by definition russia extending a olive branch to the west.

post 1990 there was NO reason to keep expanding NATO, a MILITARY ALLIANCE, right up to the border of russia. the russians told us this would piss them off. our own intelligence said that would piss them off.

we DGAF and did it anyway. and now we are FAFOing

Edited 9 hours ago by BashiChuni

[SurelySerious]

NATO existed to fight the soviet union. when the cold war ended, and russia was broke, they wanted to join europe. we vehemently said no.
that is by definition russia extending a olive branch to the west.
post 1990 there was NO reason to keep expanding NATO, a MILITARY ALLIANCE, right up to the border of russia. the russians told us this would piss them off. our own intelligence said that would piss them off.
we DGAF and did it anyway. and now we are FAFOing

Yeah, your assumption that russia was healed and everything was kumbaya and they were ready to join the west and that all the soviet influence was gone is incredibly, INCREDIBLY, flawed. Hence the aristocracy moving Putin into power to help restore Soviet glory. You’re real selective about your “facts.”