Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[gearhog]

49 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

We should not abandon democratic Europeans to a despotic Russian invasion just so we can buy their natural gas, which OBTW we don’t need? Worst analysis I’ve read in a while!

We don't need energy? False. Supply and demand. The more energy available on the global market affects price. China does need that energy.

49 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

We can and should back democratic countries over autocratic ones out of principle. We can and should stand with allies and against adversaries at every turn.

You're calling Ukraine a democracy. Explain to me how Ukraine is a democracy.

49 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

Theres realpolitik and then there’s just abandoning your values for basically nothing…

What values are being abandoned? Meddling in foreign elections? Ensuring Ukrainians don't have a right to choose their fate? Debt spending to help overthrow foreign governments? Supplying weapons to enable the slaughter of soldiers and civilians on both sides?

49 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

I think everyone here knows Ukraine isn’t going back to the pre-2014 borders or joining NATO immanently. Shit, even the Ukrainians know that. BUT they aren’t preemptively conceding in the peace talks while the war is still raging. Hell, they weren’t even invited!

If everyone knows that, what exactly are you arguing? How many miles East or West the line will be drawn? You've just conceded Russia is going to retain some of Ukraine. Ukraine wasn't invited because they were never in charge of their own fate. The war goes the way the US goes.

49 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

They are sticking to their maximal position and will likely work down from there. Meanwhile Mr. Art of the Deal has already given Putin about 2/3 of what he wanted and is looking to offer up more…for what? A temporary ceasefire that lets Putin waltz into Kiev unscathed a year from now? Hard pass.

Either have real peace talks with both belligerents at the table or let them fight. TBH it serves us just fine to let Russia crash its military against the hard rocks of Ukraine, while at the same time we should be leading the world toward a just end to the conflict. A just end, not just any end.

Maximal position? Huh? What does that mean? Do you really think any negotiated settlement would allow for the "waltzing" of Russia into Kiev? That makes zero sense.

Let them fight. This is where I would agree with you. If it is, in fact, a fight between them... leave them to it. Let's completely disengage and see where the chips lie in a year. It is an undeniable fact that our leadership at the time had a hand in creating the conditions that led to this conflict and the death of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians. Poor choices were made. We now have a chance to correct the mistakes and establish peace.

https://x.com/ricwe123/status/1868662146122535098

How is it none of you Lindsey Graham neo-con pro-war advocates cheering for the killing of Russians will not acknowledge that it also necessitates the death of Ukrainians? If the Ukrainian cause is near and dear to your heart, why have you not made any voluntary sacrifices for it beyond posts on a message board? I don't believe you really care.

Edited Thursday at 06:53 PM by gearhog

[gearhog]

Weapons transfers to Ukraine are halted - Ukrainian MP Kostenko.

The end is near.

https://x.com/front_ukrainian/status/1892634846104608848

[GrndPndr]

The thing on my mind is Keir Starmer deploying UK boots on the ground in Ukraine (as he's suggested he will do).  Will we keep our precious blood out of that and let the UK loose there?

[LiquidSky]

1 hour ago, gearhog said:

Weapons transfers to Ukraine are halted - Ukrainian MP Kostenko.

The end is near.

https://x.com/front_ukrainian/status/1892634846104608848

Shameful. Absolutely shameful.

As a heavy Bubba the weapons lifts into Poland have been one of the highlights of my career. If not the highlight. I watched the live feeds of the Russians pouring across the border and next thing I knew I was in Poland. Watching pallets get moved off my planes onto trucks and knowing within the week it'd all be gone.

Used to put a Russian into an early grave. 

It was an action that I can proudly share to any westerner. It was an action that put our country back into a well respected light with any European. 

We've nearly dismantled one of our two biggest geopolitical enemies of the last 80 years without costing a single American life. Spending a fraction of the snafu that was Afghanistan/Iraq. Boosting the American defense industry immensely both through our tax dollars being spent and through a massive influx of international sales. 

And now we're tossing it away? This war has been an Intel,strategy, and systems testing goldmine as well. A goldmine we're just going to walk away from.

We're alienating ourselves from our closest allies. We're ceding soft power left and right all for what? A few billion in savings? Billions that were going to our own military industries. Check the stock market. LM, GD, etc. have all fallen 10% or more over the past month as a result while Rheinmetall, BAE, etc. are seeing 20% growth as Europe realizes they can't trust their oldest and strongest ally. Can't wait to see how many more skilled workers we add to the unemployed list next to the other 10s of thousands who've been fired recently.

Don't even get me started on our brothers in arms that will die as a result. We've trained with many of those men and are abandoning them now for no reason. 

How we as a nation have come to the point where materially supporting a war against an undeniable tyrant is a bad thing astounds me. Can you imagine if we had stopped the lend-lease act and told the UK "good luck with the war buddy?" This is the nation that stuck with Afghanistan and Iraq for decades despite the lack of progress, yet we can't stomach 3 years of monetary support?

Rant over. I'm off to go get drunk and pray that I don't have to explain to my grandkids one day why grandpa stopped helping. Why he stepped aside and let Russia walk across the fledgling democracy of Ukraine.

 

Edited Thursday at 08:33 PM by LiquidSky

[disgruntledemployee]

[tac airlifter]

3 hours ago, Stoker said:

What's the alternative? 

Fair question.  Here's the alternative: let people vote on how to respond.  Trump was very clear he wanted the war to end, and the US voted for him to execute those policies.  Zelensky won't let his people vote, so they're stuck with forced conscription into the wood chipper.  
 
I'm not pro-Putin or condoning his actions.  But explore this hypothetical with me: what if most Ukrainians would rather give ethnically Russian territory to the Russians than have their kids & grandkids die?  Do they have a right to advocate politically for that?  Zelenskyy says no. 

[blueingreen]

20 minutes ago, LiquidSky said:

Rant over. I'm off to go get drunk and pray that I don't have to explain to my grandkids one day why grandpa stopped helping. Why he stepped aside and let Russia walk across the fledgling democracy of Ukraine.

What is America's goal in Ukraine? What does victory look like to you in this war? Ukraine has absolutely zero chance of winning, with or without the aid we've been providing. You made the comparison to Afghanistan, aptly describing the decades of conflict without progress (but plenty of bloodshed and resources expended). Do you want to go through that whole process again? I thought hindsight was 20/20. And calling Ukraine a "fledgling democracy" is laughable. They've quite literally suspended democratic elections, and some sources even have Zelensky polling lower than one of his dismissed generals, Zaluzhniy, in the event that elections were to resume. 

Europe needs to expand its defense capabilities. It's not healthy for EU - USA relations -- or international security -- that the entire continent of Europe has to rely on the United States for its defense in perpetuity. But if European countries want to continue to exist as quasi-American vassal states, they need to stop offending American sensibilities with Orwellian censorship and destructive immigration policies, among other things. VP Vance touched on this at the Munich Security Conference and nobody in Europe has provided an intelligent response yet. Right now they're trying to have their cake and eat it too.

[gearhog]

1 hour ago, LiquidSky said:

 

Shameful. Absolutely shameful.

As a heavy Bubba the weapons lifts into Poland have been one of the highlights of my career. If not the highlight. I watched the live feeds of the Russians pouring across the border and next thing I knew I was in Poland. Watching pallets get moved off my planes onto trucks and knowing within the week it'd all be gone.

Used to put a Russian into an early grave. - How many Ukrs were put in an early grave?

It was an action that I can proudly share to any westerner. It was an action that put our country back into a well respected light with any European.  - Why are you so keen to please Europeans? Maybe consider your grandkids.

We've nearly dismantled one of our two biggest geopolitical enemies of the last 80 years without costing a single American life. - What about those "brothers in arms" you're so bothered about? Inconsistent.

Spending a fraction of the snafu that was Afghanistan/Iraq. Boosting the American defense industry immensely both through our tax dollars being spent and through a massive influx of international sales. 

"- We saved money! We made lots of sales!"

And now we're tossing it away? This war has been an Intel,strategy, and systems testing goldmine as well. A goldmine we're just going to walk away from.

- "The war was a gold mine!"

We're alienating ourselves from our closest allies. We're ceding soft power left and right all for what? A few billion in savings?

- Not a few lines earlier, you were concerned about cost savings. Which is it? Inconsistent.

Billions that were going to our own military industries. Check the stock market. LM, GD, etc. have all fallen 10% or more over the past month as a result while Rheinmetall, BAE, etc. are seeing 20% growth as Europe realizes they can't trust their oldest and strongest ally. 

-"Oh, no! The stock market! Our defense contractors are suffering! What a tragedy!"

Can't wait to see how many more skilled workers we add to the unemployed list next to the other 10s of thousands who've been fired recently.

- "Oh, no! The defense industrial complex is shrinking!" (so is the population of Ukraine)

Don't even get me started on our brothers in arms that will die as a result. We've trained with many of those men and are abandoning them now for no reason. 

- But you're happy to have them conscripted to fight for all the financial reasons you listed above?

How we as a nation have come to the point where materially supporting a war against an undeniable tyrant is a bad thing astounds me. Can you imagine if we had stopped the lend-lease act and told the UK "good luck with the war buddy?" This is the nation that stuck with Afghanistan and Iraq for decades despite the lack of progress, yet we can't stomach 3 years of monetary support?

- You mean a tyrant that cancels elections and forcibly removes his citizens from the street and sends them to the front lines? We pitched in to help the UK because we believed in effort enough to make sacrifices of our own. No one here is doing that.

Rant over. I'm off to go get drunk and pray that I don't have to explain to my grandkids one day why grandpa stopped helping. Why he stepped aside and let Russia walk across the fledgling democracy of Ukraine.

- Imagine their pain when they realize the inheritance they receive from grandpa's investment portfolio wasn't what it could have been because we stopped funding the death of millions in foreign conflicts. O! The unbearable shame of it all.

Edited Thursday at 09:36 PM by gearhog

[17D_guy]

1 hour ago, tac airlifter said:

 Zelensky won't let his people vote, so they're stuck with forced conscription into the wood chipper.  
 

Their Constitution calls for no elections during a War? So, they're following their Constitution?

[gearhog]

32 minutes ago, 17D_guy said:

Their Constitution calls for no elections during a War? So, they're following their Constitution?

The Ukrainian constitution is nowhere in same category as the US Constitution. Our Constitution does not allow for the cancelling of elections, nor have we delayed/cancelled them for a war. Lincoln was re-elected during the Civil War and Roosevelt was re-elected during WW2. That's the way a democracy works. If there is a time an election should be held, one could argue it would be of upmost importance during a national crisis.

One can equivocate and call it a "fledgling democracy just finding it's legs", but that'd be wrong. The only justification for cancelling elections is because you've failed your people, and you know they're not going to keep you in power. Just because your crappy piece of paper says you can do whatever doesn't mean you're a legitimate democratic government.

Edit: It's not even in their constitution:

The direct prohibition of elections during martial law comes from statutory law, not the Constitution itself. Article 19 of the Law of Ukraine "On the Legal Regime of Martial Law," first enacted on May 12, 2015, explicitly bans presidential, parliamentary, and local elections while martial law is in effect.

This provision was enacted about 20 years after the Ukrainian constitution and after pro-Western coup took over the Ukrainian government. 

How convenient.

Edited Thursday at 10:53 PM by gearhog

[LiquidSky]

1 hour ago, gearhog said:

Shameful. Absolutely shameful.

As a heavy Bubba the weapons lifts into Poland have been one of the highlights of my career. If not the highlight. I watched the live feeds of the Russians pouring across the border and next thing I knew I was in Poland. Watching pallets get moved off my planes onto trucks and knowing within the week it'd all be gone.

Used to put a Russian into an early grave. - How many Ukrs were put in an early grave?

It was an action that I can proudly share to any westerner. It was an action that put our country back into a well respected light with any European.  - Why are you so keen to please Europeans? Maybe consider your grandkids.

We've nearly dismantled one of our two biggest geopolitical enemies of the last 80 years without costing a single American life. - What about those "brothers in arms" you're so bothered about? Inconsistent.

Spending a fraction of the snafu that was Afghanistan/Iraq. Boosting the American defense industry immensely both through our tax dollars being spent and through a massive influx of international sales. 

"- We saved money! We made lots of sales!"

And now we're tossing it away? This war has been an Intel,strategy, and systems testing goldmine as well. A goldmine we're just going to walk away from.

- "The war was a gold mine!"

We're alienating ourselves from our closest allies. We're ceding soft power left and right all for what? A few billion in savings?

- Not a few lines earlier, you were concerned about cost savings. Which is it? Inconsistent.

Billions that were going to our own military industries. Check the stock market. LM, GD, etc. have all fallen 10% or more over the past month as a result while Rheinmetall, BAE, etc. are seeing 20% growth as Europe realizes they can't trust their oldest and strongest ally. 

-"Oh, no! The stock market! Our defense contractors are suffering! What a tragedy!"

Can't wait to see how many more skilled workers we add to the unemployed list next to the other 10s of thousands who've been fired recently.

- "Oh, no! The defense industrial complex is shrinking!" (so is the population of Ukraine)

Don't even get me started on our brothers in arms that will die as a result. We've trained with many of those men and are abandoning them now for no reason. 

- But you're happy to have them conscripted to fight for all the financial reasons you listed above?

How we as a nation have come to the point where materially supporting a war against an undeniable tyrant is a bad thing astounds me. Can you imagine if we had stopped the lend-lease act and told the UK "good luck with the war buddy?" This is the nation that stuck with Afghanistan and Iraq for decades despite the lack of progress, yet we can't stomach 3 years of monetary support?

- You mean a tyrant that cancels elections and forcibly removes his citizens from the street and sends them to the front lines? We pitched in to help the UK because we believed in effort enough to make sacrifices of our own. No one here is doing that.

Rant over. I'm off to go get drunk and pray that I don't have to explain to my grandkids one day why grandpa stopped helping. Why he stepped aside and let Russia walk across the fledgling democracy of Ukraine.

- Imagine their pain when they realize the inheritance they receive from grandpa's investment portfolio wasn't what it could have been because we stopped funding the death of millions in foreign conflicts. O! The unbearable shame of it all.

Going to respond to the propaganda troll once.

1a. Strawman. But to answer your question at least 458. 

1b. The Ukrainian people have decided that dying for their country is a better fate than losing their nation. 

2. Why aren't you? We share many common values and the resulting geopolitics that come with mutual respect are extremely important to our nation's position on the world stage. The self harm we've already inflicted in those regards will directly negatively impact future generations of Americans. Our allies have become wary of us overnight and repairing that damage will take generations.

3a. No refutation of the primary point which is that we've quite handily put Russia on it's ass. I'll assume you concede the point by lack of response.

3b. Strawman. The argument you've made is that the war is costing America. The response I've provided is that it has been bloodless (excepting brave Foreign Legion volunteers) for us and monetarily a drop in the bucket. 

4. Glad you agree. Saved money. Boosted our national defense industry. Sounds like a win to me.

5. Correct it is a gold mine. I'll assume that lack of critical response is directly stemming from the inability to produce a sound argument on why we should walk away from said gold mine.

6. Misrepresentation of the statements made. I've stated this war has been extremely cheap for us as a nation. I never stated I was concerned with the cost. As a tax payer I'd happily double our investment. 

7. As much fraud, waste, and abuse there is in general this war has proven the importance of a strong home grown national defense industry. When you want to defend your country but can't because the Swiss makes the bullets your army uses and won't let others export to you that becomes a major issue. So yes I'm concerned with the stock prices of our defense industry as it's a direct representation of their relative health as companies. 

8a. Strawman. The concern was our skyrocketing unemployment and the very real impact it's going to have on the American economy.

 8b. But you're right, it is costing lives. And all of these are directly the fault of one nation. Appeasement was a hard lesson learned by our grandparents generation and it seems you skipped history class one too many times to learn from them. 

9. Strawman. I never stated I wanted this war, as if I had choice. The reality is it is here and it is happening. And I'm here to stand on the side of democracy and a stable world order.

10a. You literally just described Putin. If you can't see that you're a willful idiot and a fool. 

10b. Constitutionally Ukraine can't hold elections. Realistically they can't hold elections with a chunk of their citizens in occupied lands or shipped off to Russia. Or they could and you'd decry them as "illegitimate" as a significant portion of the population was unable to vote. 

Furthermore, this argument holds no weight as there is every indication elections will continue as normal the second this war ends. Similar to the UK during ww2 for example. Ukraine has had multiple elections and successful transitions of power unlike Putin. As for the conscription aspect, so did the US. Many nations have mandatory military service or a draft. It's a reality of war and I'll only fault it if it's being utilized to continue an unjust military action initiated by the conscripting nation such as the U.S. In Vietnam or Russia in a war of unprovoked aggression.

10c. My squadron mates were ready 2 years ago to go into Ukraine and are ready now if asked. Nuclear arsenals and geopolitics is what holds us back, and not our service member's willingness to fight for the cause. Which in my opinion says some of us have learned from history as our grandparents generation practiced isolatinism and only entered ww2 war to make sacrifices of their own when the war came to their doorstep at pearl harbor. You, on the other hand, would have decried lend-lease and said just let Hitler have Europe, Japan can have Asia, and we can keep our happy sphere of influence in the Americas. Good luck everyone else! 

11. Not even worth responding to. I am currently ashamed by our leader's actions and will be eternally so if the end result of this is Ukraine crumbling. Our proud nation has the opportunity to stand up for democracy and is instead letting it die.

Edited Thursday at 11:11 PM by LiquidSky

[BashiChuni]

the "stand up for democracy" shrilling is ridiculous.

as this USAID and biden bribery scandal unfolds you will hardly see motives to "stand up for democracy"

 

it's a smoke screen to disguise money laundering and criminal activity. but much like the phrase "conspiracy theorist" it has proven to be highly effective at stirring up emotions in the uneducated masses.

Edited yesterday at 01:30 AM by BashiChuni

[tac airlifter]

1 hour ago, 17D_guy said:

Their Constitution calls for no elections during a War?

Thanks for helping me understand their law better.  Could you quote the applicable section of their constitution for my edification?  I couldn't find it.

Edited Thursday at 11:48 PM by tac airlifter

[nsplayr]

37 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

Thanks for helping me understand their law better.  Could you quote the applicable section of their constitution for my edification?  I couldn't find it.

I am not a Ukrainian constitutional lawyer, but a 2 minute google search + page translation yields:

This article describing why Ukraine can’t hold elections while under martial law, which was (understandably) declared when their country was invaded by Russia in 2022.

That article has a link to the actual constitution

Article 19 states:

 

BL: the “Zelensky is a dictator” is a Russian talking point, happily parroted by POTUS. If the Russians really were passionate about Ukrainian election timing they should end their invasion, go home so martial law can be ended, and then let them hold elections in peace.

This article also discussss how it’s the Kremlin, not Ukrainians, even opposition leaders, who are calling for elections. The Ukrainians of basically all political stripes want the Russians to GTFO of their country.

Straight from Poroshenko’s mouth, the former President of Ukraine who lost to Zelensky in the 2019 election (page translation needed once you click):

And this from another opposition leader Yulia Tymoshenko:

 

Edited yesterday at 12:23 AM by nsplayr

[ViperMan]

11 hours ago, gearhog said:

This is the most honest/understandable representation of the pro-war side of the argument:

Cheering for the feeding of an entire society into the wood chipper.

https://x.com/ricwe123/status/1630672196510138377

This is Putin's CHOICE! I'm not desiring a bunch of dead people - characterizing our enabling of a lesser, defensive, Army as "pro war" is ludicrous. Putin started this thing in 2014, and then he really started it in 2022. This is and should be the painful consequence of his decision to FAFO. As we back down, now, we will have encouraged far more bloodshed elsewhere.

11 hours ago, busdriver said:

ETA: my impression is this was sarcasm.  If serious, shrewd real-politic.

It's real-politic.

11 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Aside from its ghoulish nature, which I can get over, the pragmatic problem is you’re also feeding generations of Ukrainians into the wood chipper.  Easy for us to accept that cost, but you’ve surrendered the moral high ground given Zelensky has suspended elections and imprisoned the opposition.  

It’s obvious to anyone this war will end with negotiated settlement allowing Russia to keep portions of Ukraine.

First, it's a complete misappropriation to place responsibility for this conflict on Ukraine. They have every right to defend themselves from Russia/Putin. It is Russia feeding generations of Ukraine into the wood chipper - not anyone else. I don't have too much to say about "suspending elections", but I will say it's possibly, just possibly, a little bit disingenuous to think that the should hold "elections" while they're in a fight for the very existence of their country, when it's been under assault for the last decade. In more ways than one. You think Russia interfered in our 2016 election? What about in Ukraine right now? Yeah, let's hold "elections" and see what happens.

To the second part, I agree, and have said as much on this thread. It'll wind up with some sort of armistice. That is obvious, however, what we don't need to do is give away the whole kit and kaboodle. Russia's not exactly been able to take ground rapidly, in case you haven't noticed. Guaranteeing Ukraine's security when we suckered them into giving away their nukes may come back to haunt us in terms of the broader US project in the world. Turning our back on them may have other dramatic consequences.

I wasn't happy when we surrendered in Afghanistan. In many ways I blame Biden for that because he signaled to Putin that we were weak and he took the opportunity. In a similar fashion, I can't wait to see what's behind door number three when we surrender Ukraine...

[BashiChuni]

10 minutes ago, ViperMan said:

. Putin started this thing in 2014

WRONG

and root cause of you guys being deceived. this goes back LONG before 2014.

NATO caused this. specifically the US.

when you analyze what russia/putin have said the last 35 years you can connect the dots.

 

i'd point you to the Biden Admin's CIA director's memo when he was a ANALYST (aka analyzing what the russians will do and WHY)

the famous "no means no" memo. it clearly spells it out.

[ViperMan]

2 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

WRONG

and root cause of you guys being deceived. this goes back LONG before 2014.

NATO caused this. specifically the US.

when you analyze what russia/putin have said the last 35 years you can connect the dots.

 

i'd point you to the Biden Admin's CIA director's memo when he was a ANALYST (aka analyzing what the russians will do and WHY)

the famous "no means no" memo. it clearly spells it out.

Negative homie. We've been through this. Here it is again for you.

"No limits on NATO expansion."

etc. etc. etc.

This is about eliminating a competing energy state that can easily supply Europe. It has nothing to do with NATO besides the excuse Putin uses to scapegoat his actions.

 

[gearhog]

3 hours ago, LiquidSky said:

I am currently ashamed by our leader's actions and will be eternally so if the end result of this is Ukraine crumbling. Our proud nation has the opportunity to stand up for democracy and is instead letting it die.

You're ashamed of your nation. Noted. Bye.

 

1 hour ago, nsplayr said:

I am not a Ukrainian constitutional lawyer, but a 2 minute google search + page translation yields:

This article describing why Ukraine can’t hold elections while under martial law, which was (understandably) declared when their country was invaded by Russia in 2022.

That article has a link to the actual constitution

Article 19 states:

I covered this earlier. "Article 19" is not part of the original Ukrainian constitution, but statutory law that abridged the original constitution in 2015, after the coup. You should spend more than 2 minutes on Google to understand what you're talking about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_Ukraine

13 hours ago, ViperMan said:

Nah, we have no interest in this war ending. We should continue to shovel weapons to Ukraine so Putin can slowly feed more and more of his society into the wood chipper.

44 minutes ago, ViperMan said:

This is Putin's CHOICE! I'm not desiring a bunch of dead people - characterizing our enabling of a lesser, defensive, Army as "pro war" is ludicrous. Putin started this thing in 2014, and then he really started it in 2022. This is and should be the painful consequence of his decision to FAFO. As we back down, now, we will have encouraged far more bloodshed elsewhere.

Backpedal much? You clearly said we should we should shovel weapons into a war so a society could be fed into a wood chipper. That indicates a choice on our part to achieve a desired outcome. Either own it or admit it was a poor choice of words. This is a pro-war position at best, straight up evil at worst. Anytime a choice is made to cease hostilites... that's backing down? Are for or against minimizing bloodshed? Your language is ambiguous, but you most definitely don't care about anyone's bloodshed.

Edited yesterday at 02:04 AM by gearhog

[nsplayr]

Fact-immune 😆

Before we beat around this bush again and again, how sure are we some of these dudes are actually pilots or in the Air Force or something adjacent?

I don’t know too many BO.net people in real life but a few know me. I may be a dumbass liberal but I’m also not a Russian troll.

Some of these arguments are literally directly from the Kremlin.

Go with quals or bro check credentials @BashiChuni and @gearhog. What do you / did you fly? Who amongst the mods and OGs can vouch for you?

If you’re good patriotic American airmen who are also just morons, my apologies. But let’s hear it.

[BashiChuni]

6 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

Fact-immune 😆

Before we beat around this bush again and again, how sure are we some of these dudes are actually pilots or in the Air Force or something adjacent?

I don’t know too many BO.net people in real life but a few know me. I may be a dumbass liberal but I’m also not a Russian troll.

Some of these arguments are literally directly from the Kremlin.

Go with quals or bro check credentials @BashiChuni and @gearhog. What do you / did you fly? Who amongst the mods and OGs can vouch for you?

If you’re good patriotic American airmen who are also just morons, my apologies. But let’s hear it.

i don't have to go with shit.

the facts are you guys absolutely REFUSE to even consider to think like your enemy. you take ZERO account of your enemies motives or what will push them to do things you don't like.

know thy enemy. know WHY putin took his actions. you don't have to agree with them, hell i don't! but i understand why he did it.

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html

 

 

 

"1. (C) Summary. Following a muted first reaction to Ukraine's intent to seek a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) at the Bucharest summit (ref A), Foreign Minister Lavrov and other senior officials have reiterated strong opposition, stressing that Russia would view further eastward expansion as a potential military threat. NATO enlargement, particularly to Ukraine, remains "an emotional and neuralgic" issue for Russia, but strategic policy considerations also underlie strong opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia. In Ukraine, these include fears that the issue could potentially split the country in two, leading to violence or even, some claim, civil war, which would force Russia to decide whether to intervene."

 

 - former CIA director Bill Burns 2008

 

 

it's fucking spelled out for you in 2008. and yes they are fucking facts.

Edited yesterday at 02:12 AM by BashiChuni

[BashiChuni]

6 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

 I’m also not a Russian troll.

 

was Bill Burns a russian troll when he wrote his spot on analysis?

grow up.

[Day Man]

3 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

the facts are you guys absolutely REFUSE to even consider to think like your enemy.

you can think like your enemy and not agree with them, comrade

[BashiChuni]

3 minutes ago, Day Man said:

you can think like your enemy and not agree with them, comrade

yeah no shit genius thanks for that brilliant commentary. maybe if i have a question on how to use the weather radar i'll reach out.

you guys refuse to even see the russian perspective or rationale for their actions. just blindly want to commit our nation (AGAIN) into literal WW3.

 

i would like our nation to stop doing provocative things that we KNOW will cause conflict.

Edited yesterday at 02:20 AM by BashiChuni

[gearhog]

17 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

Fact-immune 😆

Before we beat around this bush again and again, how sure are we some of these dudes are actually pilots or in the Air Force or something adjacent?

I don’t know too many BO.net people in real life but a few know me. I may be a dumbass liberal but I’m also not a Russian troll.

Some of these arguments are literally directly from the Kremlin.

Go with quals or bro check credentials @BashiChuni and @gearhog. What do you / did you fly? Who amongst the mods and OGs can vouch for you?

If you’re good patriotic American airmen who are also just morons, my apologies. But let’s hear it.

I just corrected your technical error about the Ukrainian constitution. Why all bent out of shape over it? Are you angry I was correct? Interesting that you're the second liberal who has called himself a dumbass in this thread. Why would I need to argue with you?

What does being a pilot have to do with having an perspective on Ukraine? I understand it's far more credible than any opinion of anyone who has never been at the primary flight controls of an aircraft, but it's not that important. Why do I have to be pro-war like yourself to be considered a patriotic American?

Like Bashi, I don't have to go with shit, either. If you don't think I'm a USAF pilot, so what? Disregard everything I'm saying. I could not care any less. You're just going to have to live with you not knowing, and me not caring.

Edited yesterday at 02:24 AM by gearhog

[ViperMan]

41 minutes ago, gearhog said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_Ukraine

13 hours ago, ViperMan said:

Nah, we have no interest in this war ending. We should continue to shovel weapons to Ukraine so Putin can slowly feed more and more of his society into the wood chipper.

1 hour ago, ViperMan said:

This is Putin's CHOICE! I'm not desiring a bunch of dead people - characterizing our enabling of a lesser, defensive, Army as "pro war" is ludicrous. Putin started this thing in 2014, and then he really started it in 2022. This is and should be the painful consequence of his decision to FAFO. As we back down, now, we will have encouraged far more bloodshed elsewhere.

Backpedal much? You clearly said we should we should shovel weapons into a war so a society could be fed into a wood chipper. That indicates a choice on our part to achieve a desired outcome. Either own it or admit it was a poor choice of words. This is a pro-war position at best, straight up evil at worst. Anytime a choice is made to cease hostilites... that's backing down? Are for or against minimizing bloodshed? Your language is ambiguous, but you most definitely don't care about anyone's bloodshed.

Well I can see how a two-sentence statement can be fodder for your backpedal comment, but I'll add a little more context since you're obviously not a fighter pilot. I mean them both. There. I'm owning it. It was, in part, a cavalier response to the devil-may-care attitude some of you show, by regurgitating Russian talking points while representing yourselves as US military officers.

Yes, we should funnel weapons into this war so the people who are defending themselves can continue to do so. No, it doesn't matter iF tHEy're nOt a dEMoCraCY. Putin along with his criminal army should be the ones who bear the brunt of the cost. That cost should be maintained at a high enough level to continue taking a toll until he cries uncle - which he eventually will - that much should be obvious to anyone who has paid attention to just how well his military has fared in this conflict. Maximizing Russian bloodshed to enable that end, should be our explicit goal, as that is the only way this war will justly end.

I'll let me be the judge of what I do and don't care about, but to get to the crux of your provocation, yes, I have accepted that war is two things - wrong in an absolute sense, and two, part of human nature. I'm sorry that human kind has decided that some shit is worth killing people over - but that's not a decision I get to make. It's part of the reality I inhabit. And I know you're using "pro-war" as an insult, but if you are in the military, and you can't have seen being pro war at some point or another, than I don't even know what to think about that. Maximizing the bloodshed of those who are in the wrong, and who simultaneously have the full capacity and responsibility for ending the war is the fastest, and most moral way to resolve it. The only reason Putin won't, is because he wants to save face, and now sees an opportunity. And on that topic - our lack of unanimity and moral clarity on that point helps enable Putin. That is why attitudes like yours are met with such derision.

The part of this whole thing I find most incredulous is that you think that by terminating support for Ukraine, bloodshed is going to end for those people. That's inexcusably naive. The only thing you're going to get is a reprieve from seeing it on the news. In fact, the cost of the war will still be fully borne out. That's the unfortunate part. You'll get to turn the lights out, click your brain off, take an internet victory lap, and pretend everything's hunky dory.