Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[gearhog]

1 hour ago, Banzai said:

I didn’t use ChatGPT or another LLM ffs.

I personally would be more resistant to providing ground troops. But I would commit a lot of the Air Force, including my pink body if they’ll let me.

If you establish real air superiority you won’t need those troops. But if your question is the hypothetical where we wait until they exhaust all Ukrainian troops, then i wouldn’t probably support American ground troops.

I've already said: I don't care if you did or you didn't seek help online to create a reply. But I do appreciate the recent human responses.

Now we're getting somewhere. So you want direct conflict between the US military and the Russian military.

However (and this is a big however), you're not ready to commit ground troops. Just a little limited near-peer engagement in the air. Delusional.

1 hour ago, Banzai said:

I said if needed. I do think there are acceptable ways to establish no fly zones or air superiority that don’t all out escalate to the apocalypse. But these are hypotheticals.

Acceptable to whom? What percentage of the threats in your vault are manufactured in Russia? I'd hope if you're ready to send Airman into direct conflict with the Russkies, you'd have something a little more solid than some off-the-hip hypotheticals that it won't escalate. Do you really think there are any plans for a scenario where our aircraft attack Russia and Russia just takes it and elects not to lob a few tactical nukes our way? Silly.

"Why should the world exist without Russia?" That's always their response when asked about strategic defeat.

1 hour ago, Banzai said:

Right now all that’s needed is some money and a Ukrainian nation that is willing to fight to hold back a huge adversary to the first world.

Do you hear yourself? Would you say this to any Ukrainian? "Here's some money. We need you, as a former second world country, to fight an adversary of the first world. Try not to die."

1 hour ago, Banzai said:

Let’s just admit that it’s not entirely straightforward. 

Belief 1: Ukrainian people don’t matter to the US

Stance A - we should stop funding them, it’s a waste of money

Stance B - we should use them as a meat grinder for our benefit

Belief 2: Ukrainian people are important and their lives should be protected

Stance A - We should go for peace ASAP at any cost

Stance B - we should support their fight at any cost

I acknowledge that your guys’s position isn’t just black and white morally. But I’m in the camp of fighting the Russians for the same reason my dad and grandad fought them. You can argue under either stance for either thing. But I want America to be in charge, and I don’t want to throw away the world order we have built to our advantage.

I'm not going to admit it's not straightforward. It absolutely is. Stance A. Stance A. You think we need to start WW3 because your "world order" is under some sort of perceived threat. It's not. The Cold War was cold because we avoided a hot war and defeated the USSR by just being a better country. We were economically, socially, morally, and diplomatically superior. Countless lives were saved, perhaps the whole planet, because cooler heads prevailed. You're like a modern day Buck Turgidson.

 

Edited March 3 by gearhog

[ecugringo]

What would it take to push Russia out of UK completely?  How many lives? How much $$$?

does UK have the personnel to do this?

Does the EU have the will to spend and support?

The war is basically a stalemate with Russia slowly grinding forward.  The effort to push Russia out is too great.

i think making a deal for peace and resources is in the best interest ok the Ukraine ppl.

the current involvement will drag this on for another 3 yrs.  We’ll spend billions, uk will lose another couple hundred thousand men and Russia will gain 15% more land.

also we only really know what we’ve been told.  Lots of questions to be answered.

[LookieRookie]

1 hour ago, ecugringo said:

What would it take to push Russia out of UK completely?  How many lives? How much $$$?

does UK have the personnel to do this?

Does the EU have the will to spend and support?

The war is basically a stalemate with Russia slowly grinding forward.  The effort to push Russia out is too great.

i think making a deal for peace and resources is in the best interest ok the Ukraine ppl.

the current involvement will drag this on for another 3 yrs.  We’ll spend billions, uk will lose another couple hundred thousand men and Russia will gain 15% more land.

also we only really know what we’ve been told.  Lots of questions to be answered.

UKR is the acronym

[M2]

"The Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?!?"

"Forget it, he's rolling."

[Splash95]

This whole debate (to use the term generously) boggles my mind. While I'm sympathetic to Ukrainians' plight, and I certainly don't love, like or trust Putin, it is well past time for the killing to stop and a negotiated peace to begin. Trump and Vance are clearly of that mindset. If Zelensky wants to spurn peace dealings and keep fighting the Russians, despite the catastrophic consequences for his own country, that's his prerogative. Same if he wants to convince Europe to get involved via more funding or even ground troops. However, the perspective I find the most sensible (in brief, a combination of "lives matter" and "America first") holds that our involvement focus on trying to end this war, not pouring billions upon billions of dollars into sustaining it. Like a few others on this forum, I have a hard time understanding what actual outcome the Slava Ukraini/Fnck Russia types here envision or find possible considering the war's current state of play and the occupant of the White House.

[disgruntledemployee]

1 hour ago, Splash95 said:

This whole debate (to use the term generously) boggles my mind. While I'm sympathetic to Ukrainians' plight, and I certainly don't love, like or trust Putin, it is well past time for the killing to stop and a negotiated peace to begin. Trump and Vance are clearly of that mindset. If Zelensky wants to spurn peace dealings and keep fighting the Russians, despite the catastrophic consequences for his own country, that's his prerogative. Same if he wants to convince Europe to get involved via more funding or even ground troops. However, the perspective I find the most sensible (in brief, a combination of "lives matter" and "America first") holds that our involvement focus on trying to end this war, not pouring billions upon billions of dollars into sustaining it. Like a few others on this forum, I have a hard time understanding what actual outcome the Slava Ukraini/Fnck Russia types here envision or find possible considering the war's current state of play and the occupant of the White House.

What an interesting method to get UKR and Russia to a negotiating table... a public wall to wall counseling for the world to see.  Anyone here think Z is going to listen to Trump or Vance anymore? ***  Yet, I have this Bongino** feeling that the blowup was planned somewhat, like WWF drama, or the Apprentice.  Vance just seemed too over the top.  If the goal was to get the EU to play harder, it might work.  That or Trump didn't want to change his tee time.

Here is Rubio trying to do some form of damage control.  He thinks Trump is the only one that can get Putin to negotiate.  I think Taylor Swift could do it because deep down, Putin is a Swifty.  Why does Rubio mention the Nobel Peace Prize? 

https://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/video/rubio-hopes-talks-ukraine-reset-easy-peace-deal-119342477

So folks, that's the question to discuss this week: How to get Putin to negotiate.

We've already beat the billions of money, right to defend, meat grinder, NATO, debate mechanics, et al, horses pretty dead.  Whack!

** Bingino - its my new term for wacky theories, derived from a scripted show.  FBI, stay strong.

*** Let's assume that Trump/Vance oval display was as it looked, Z setting off Trump.  If Ukrainsplaining (Rubio coined that term, see vid above) is all it takes to manipulate Trump like that, dude is more of a Muppet than I thought; pull some strings and watch him go.

[GrndPndr]

5 hours ago, disgruntledemployee said:

<snip>  Yet, I have this Bongino** feeling that the blowup was planned somewhat, like WWF drama, or the Apprentice.  Vance just seemed too over the top.  If the goal was to get the EU to play harder, it might work. <snip>

And yet, to me, this is clearly what was planned for.  Interesting, that not one of Trumps world-wide detractors has thought this a plausible scenario.  And the EU is seen in a huge group picture, now pledging to take care of the situation.

[coppy]

It is obvious to me that this is a win win situation for the United States. 

Trump and Vance's actions will either cause a negotiated peace deal, or it will force the EU to completely handle supporting Ukraine. Either way is a win for us. Ukraine is not a member of NATO, and we have no real obligation to support their defense.

Additionally, I think some second order effects of this conflict have been ignored. For example, Russia has gotten to experience and adapt to three years of war against western weapon systems. This experience/data will no doubt be used against us in a future conflict against them or China, god forbid it ever comes to that.

[tac airlifter]

12 hours ago, Banzai said:

 I would commit a lot of the Air Force, including my pink body if they’ll let me.

If you establish real air superiority you won’t need those troops. 

This is a great point, once we established air superiority against the Taliban, the Houthis, & HTS we've dominated.  That's why Afghanistan, Yemen and Syria are solid victories for the US 🇺🇸 Honorable mention to Libya, Somalia, Mali.  And the "all air power no-fly zones" from Iraq in the 90s definitely prevented a decades long ground war.

You seem like someone who spent the last 20 years fighting all over the world gaining a wealth of practical combat experience, not at all a new guy.

[LiquidSky]

Well at least some of the bobs are calling a Russian a Russian now.

"Assume that what you write will be read by malign foreign actors and tailor your response accordingly."

[LiquidSky]

Meanwhile:

"Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth orders a halt to offensive cyber operations against Russia  Russia has intensified cyber operations against Ukraine and NATO countries, according to previous U.S. intelligence and private sector reports."

Glad we have a washed up POG Major in charge. I'd rather have the ridiculousness of the red scare than this pathetic display.

[LiquidSky]

11 hours ago, Splash95 said:

This whole debate (to use the term generously) boggles my mind. While I'm sympathetic to Ukrainians' plight, and I certainly don't love, like or trust Putin, it is well past time for the killing to stop and a negotiated peace to begin. Trump and Vance are clearly of that mindset. If Zelensky wants to spurn peace dealings and keep fighting the Russians, despite the catastrophic consequences for his own country, that's his prerogative. Same if he wants to convince Europe to get involved via more funding or even ground troops. However, the perspective I find the most sensible (in brief, a combination of "lives matter" and "America first") holds that our involvement focus on trying to end this war, not pouring billions upon billions of dollars into sustaining it. Like a few others on this forum, I have a hard time understanding what actual outcome the Slava Ukraini/Fnck Russia types here envision or find possible considering the war's current state of play and the occupant of the White House.

Because some recalled the history of the past 100 years and have learned from it.

1940s appeasement directly led to the rise of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Post-war iron curtian/Soviet appeasement led to the rise of the USSR. 

Russian Federation appeasement has led to:

1994: Chechen war

1999: Chechen war round 2

2008: Georgian Invasion

2014: Crimean & Donbas Occupation

2022: Full-scale invasion of Ukraine

 

You think Putin is going to be content with what he has attained? You think Russians will forget the humiliation of a 3 day special operation against a weaker nation turning into a 3 year stalemate? 

They'll sue for peace, re-arm over the next few years, and then roll over Ukraine when everyone in the west has stopped caring again. They didn't abide by the Budapest memorandum or any other agreement they've made since conspiring with Germany to split up Poland. Why do you think they will now? 

[tac airlifter]

25 minutes ago, LiquidSky said:

"Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth orders a halt to offensive cyber operations against Russia  Russia has intensified cyber operations against Ukraine and NATO countries, according to previous U.S. intelligence and private sector reports."

Glad we have a washed up POG Major in charge. 

Is there any chance you’ve been misled by the MSM regarding the precise nature of SECDEF cyber order?  I personally don’t know what going on, but the MSM lies constantly and here we have someone in the know disputing your assertion.  🤷🏽‍♂️

Also curious if you can explain the “POG” characterization since the dude literally deployed as an infantry officer in combat?

Edited March 3 by tac airlifter

[LiquidSky]

Considering the sheer number of agencies reporting it and that our allies are commenting on it, I'm inclined to believe it over a random rep.

Regarding POG, oops my bad. Actually confused him with our illustrious POG VP. Not to be confused with the newest Navy secretary who has 0 military or defense experience. Funny how everyone is an unqualified white male in this admin. Does that make them DEI hires? 

[dream big]

52 minutes ago, LiquidSky said:

Meanwhile:

"Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth orders a halt to offensive cyber operations against Russia  Russia has intensified cyber operations against Ukraine and NATO countries, according to previous U.S. intelligence and private sector reports."

Glad we have a washed up POG Major in charge. I'd rather have the ridiculousness of the red scare than this pathetic display.

Rather have this dude than DEI Lloyd who fucked away Afghanistan, was in a coma while an active member of the NCA, no strategy on Ukraine, and wore a double Covid mask and face shield while in public. 

[Blue]

1 hour ago, LiquidSky said:

Considering the sheer number of agencies reporting it and that our allies are commenting on it, I'm inclined to believe it over a random rep.

The quoted NBC News article cites their source as "a U.S. official familiar with the matter."

All of the reporting seems to trace back to a story in The Record, which is a site that reports on cybersecurity news.  They state their sources as "three people familiar with the matter."

Maybe it's true.  But it's been very clear that most mainstream media is biased against Trump, and certainly biased against anything that shuts down the flow of money to Ukraine.  In the past, so many news stories like this were ginned up from next-to-nothing, and the benefit of hindsight showed that so many of them were false.

So, I can't summon any personal concern about a "story" from the MSM that cites the bullshit "sources familiar with the matter" and the like.

I suppose it doesn't matter though.  This story is running rampant through social media, with everyone piling on. "OMG, How can he do this!!11!!1  HE's an ElEment of PutiN!  Fuck TruMP!!1!!"

It's all just so fucking exhausting.

Edited March 3 by Blue

[tac airlifter]

29 minutes ago, LiquidSky said:

Considering the sheer number of agencies reporting it and that our allies are commenting on it, I'm inclined to believe it over a random rep.

Regarding POG, oops my bad. Actually confused him with our illustrious POG VP. Not to be confused with the newest Navy secretary who has 0 military or defense experience. Funny how everyone is an unqualified white male in this admin. Does that make them DEI hires? 

So from your perspective coordinated MSM reporting based on anonymous sources is more credible than a sitting member of Congress fully read into the subject matter and speaking on the record?  We disagree.

Given your use of POG as a pejorative can I assume you yourself have a combat infantry background?

your assertion that everyone is an unqualified white male in this administration is false, rendering your DEI question moot.  "Qualified" is subjective but gender/ethnicity is not:

[disgruntledemployee]

1 hour ago, dream big said:

Rather have this dude than DEI Lloyd who fucked away Afghanistan, was in a coma while an active member of the NCA, no strategy on Ukraine, and wore a double Covid mask and face shield while in public. 

And I'd rather have an experienced active military turned civilian leader that understands leadership, diplomacy, history, and strategy and can thinks 10 steps ahead.  Sadly than man departed the previous Trump admin.

[SurelySerious]

And I'd rather have an experienced active military turned civilian leader that understands leadership, diplomacy, history, and strategy and can thinks 10 steps ahead.  Sadly than man departed the previous Trump admin.

Hopefully enjoying himself in eastern Washington.

[gearhog]

Today.

AM: 

PM: 

How far away is it now?

[BashiChuni]

Talk about overplaying your losing hand zelensky!

 

 

[LiquidSky]

Everything else aside are y'all actually ok with the executive branch taking the power of the purse from congress?

These are fund legally approved and allocated by congress whether you support the cause or not. The action of cutting them off goes against everything in the constitution regarding division of power and seperate but equal branches.

[MCO]

I don’t understand how we lecture Ukraine.

Hey, Russia invaded your land and took a third of your territory. You want to keep fighting? Sorry, we don’t like that you have the will to fight for your land. We have decided it’s not worth your people’s lives so we have also decided that we will give the Russians everything they want.

Imagine France told us in 1778 too bad, we won’t fund your war because the British are killing too many of you. Go ahead and sue for peace and just be British puppets again because we don’t like other people’s war or the idea of you dying. Your people hate it and just want to be British rather than have a war so let them.

There is a valid argument over money spent which I think is separate to supporting Ukraine’s right to defend itself. I personally think it’s money well spent. Let a malign foreign actor who wants to bully those around him and affect our internal politics get stuck in a war they made against an enemy willing to fight them with little risk to us. Seems like a win/win to me, way better than other crap we’ve spent way more money on. Obviously the opinions on that are all over the place.

The die hard support of all things Trump amazes me. You can be a fan of his and support him as President without just justifying everything he does. It seems like no one has their own views anymore. Trump was a dick to Zelensky because he correctly pointed out you can’t trust Putin, which could hinder a negotiation. Trump just wants to say he made peace at any cost, repercussions to Ukraine be damned. It’s like Afghanistan, he started that shit show pull out because he “made a deal” with the Taliban that they were never going to uphold, Biden just didn’t change course. Trump doesn’t care if his deals are held up, he just wants to say he made one.
 

There are lots of things happening now in the country I like. I’m not a rabid anti Trumper. This just isn’t one of them.

[Splash95]

2 hours ago, Banzai said:

It’s not that hard. Many Essentially all people on this forum [and throughout the West] have been exposed to literally near constant pro Russia Ukraine propaganda for the past few years. [For a few, the propaganda didn't really add up so they were spurred to dig a little deeper.]

This is just the natural result of that reality.

FIFY

[NKAWTG]

I don't understand why there is a reflexive need in the West to fight to the last Ukrainian.  What can we do differently to coerce Russia without starting WWIII?  Ukraine is not gaining back lost territory without more manpower, regardless of how many weapons we give them to test.  You have to negotiate with Russia at some point, and Zelensky seems incapable of doing that.