Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[gearhog]

1 hour ago, Lawman said:

No see there it is right at the very end.

Don’t do either… you won’t come out and just say what you mean which is walk away from supporting Ukraine and let Russia have its way.

You overtly avoid saying that because you know it’s not convincing to the room that knows better. You can’t support that directly so you make noise about how Ukraine is somehow the real unrecognized bad actor or how awful we’ve been in the past so we (US/NATO/West) should just excuse the Russians as they pursue their own. Interests. We have to be paralyzed by some sort of made up guilt. A “western desire to continue” as you say is a cornerstone of wider the Russian IO campaign. The one inserted into our own society as a method to erode any efforts against them in foreign policy.

You're losing the argument so instead of pointing to evidence where I've ever said such things when I challenged you, your basis is now "You're thinking it, but not saying it." Falling back to that reasoning is childish. But I guess in your mind, it works. You can literally accuse me of anything and then say "Liar. You're really a communist." Thank you, Senator John McCarthy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

Again, you don't have anything at all to legitimately criticize so you resort, as usual, to making things up. I have said time and again that I want Russia to fail. Search my post history. You'll find it. But what I don't want it to lose the principles that made America great in the process. You seem to be willing to accept "skeletons", to excuse criminal behavior, to rationalize and justify any act that harms Russia. That's a Pyrrhic victory. You may be satisfied with one, but I'm not.

Everything you don't like is Russian I/O, but I'm the conspiracy theorist. Roger.

Edited February 9, 2023 by gearhog

[Lawman]

You're losing the argument so instead of pointing to evidence where I've ever said such things when I challenged you, your basis is now "You're thinking it, but not saying it." Falling back to that reasoning is childish. But I guess in your mind, it works. You can literally accuse me of anything and then say "Liar. You're really a communist." Thank you, Senator John McCarthy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
Again, you don't have anything at all to legitimately criticize so you resort, as usual, to making things up. I have said time and again that I want Russia to fail. Search my post history. You'll find it. But what I don't want it to lose the principles that made America great in the process. You seem to be willing to accept "skeletons", to excuse criminal behavior, to rationalize and justify any act that harms Russia. That's a Pyrrhic victory. You may be satisfied with one, but I'm not.
Everything you don't like is Russian I/O, but I'm the conspiracy theorist. Roger.

And no you adopt the “No true Scotsman” position to protect the fact you can’t openly say what you actually mean.

And you’re in this thread and the one right above it spreading everything from doubts about Ukrainian purity to baseless conspiracy theory.

So yeah you get called out for it whether you are a willing bot or just a useful idiot.


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[gearhog]

Just now, Lawman said:

And no you adopt the “No true Scotsman” position to protect the fact you can’t openly say what you actually mean.

And you’re in this thread and the one right above it spreading everything from doubts about Ukrainian purity to baseless conspiracy theory.

So yeah you get called out for it whether you are a willing bot or just a useful idiot.

How am I adopting the "No True Scotsman" position? I am amused that you actually googled "logical fallacies", randomly selected one that's irrelevant, and hoped it would kind of work to make it seem like you kind of knew what you're talking about. Explain how my position in any way relates to it. I'll wait.

Are you really accusing me of doubting Ukrainian purity? Is that a joke?

And once again, like clockwork, you get a little flustered and regress into the insults and name calling. Didn't see that one coming a mile away. LOL

[gearhog]

"Ukrainian purity"

You can't be serious.

https://www.euronews.com/2023/01/24/ukraine-corruption-scandal-string-of-officials-resign-in-kyiv

The United States vowed to tightly monitor how Ukraine spends billions of dollars of aid on Tuesday, following a damaging corruption scandal that led to a string of resignations in Kyiv. 

While Washington said it had no evidence western funds were being misused, US State Department Spokesman Ned Price promised there would be "rigorous monitoring" to ensure American assistance was not diverted. 

Several senior Ukrainian officials were dismissed on Tuesday, in the wake of a corruption scandal surrounding illicit payments to deputy ministers and over-inflated military contracts.

A total of five regional governors, four deputy ministers and two heads of a government agency left their posts, alongside the deputy head of the presidential administration and the deputy attorney general.

In his nightly address, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said the purge was "necessary" to maintain "a strong state", while Price hailed it as "quick" and "essential". 

Still, the scandal comes at a sensitive time for Kyiv, as it asks for ever-increasing amounts of support from the West and faces down Russian advances in the east. 

Corruption could dampen Western enthusiasm for the Ukrainian government, which has a long history of shaky governance. 

EDIT: @Lawman, one more for your consideration. Just got my W-2s the other day and I paid the highest taxes I've ever paid in my life, by a lot. I hope you did, too. We should all be concerned where they're going. I'm never going to apologize for my concerns.

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/6880

Edited February 9, 2023 by gearhog

[Lawman]

"Ukrainian purity"
You can't be serious.
https://www.euronews.com/2023/01/24/ukraine-corruption-scandal-string-of-officials-resign-in-kyiv
The United States vowed to tightly monitor how Ukraine spends billions of dollars of aid on Tuesday, following a damaging corruption scandal that led to a string of resignations in Kyiv. 
While Washington said it had no evidence western funds were being misused, US State Department Spokesman Ned Price promised there would be "rigorous monitoring" to ensure American assistance was not diverted. 
Several senior Ukrainian officials were dismissed on Tuesday, in the wake of a corruption scandal surrounding illicit payments to deputy ministers and over-inflated military contracts.
A total of five regional governors, four deputy ministers and two heads of a government agency left their posts, alongside the deputy head of the presidential administration and the deputy attorney general.
In his nightly address, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said the purge was "necessary" to maintain "a strong state", while Price hailed it as "quick" and "essential". 
Still, the scandal comes at a sensitive time for Kyiv, as it asks for ever-increasing amounts of support from the West and faces down Russian advances in the east. 
 
Corruption could dampen Western enthusiasm for the Ukrainian government, which has a long history of shaky governance. 

•  

“Hey everybody I’m not buying the Russian narrative or trying to convince you to stop providing aid to a country aligned with our interests that is actively fighting them… oh but wait let’s talk about how bad the Ukrainians are again.”

Jesus between this and you paddling the conspiracies theorist canoe about Nordstream it’s a wonder we don’t have a moderator run your IP address.


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[gearhog]

51 minutes ago, Lawman said:

“Hey everybody I’m not buying the Russian narrative or trying to convince you to stop providing aid to a country aligned with our interests that is actively fighting them… oh but wait let’s talk about how bad the Ukrainians are again.”

Jesus between this and you paddling the conspiracies theorist canoe about Nordstream it’s a wonder we don’t have a moderator run your IP address.

You want a moderator to run my IP address? For what? Retaliation for disagreeing with you? Go ahead. You gonna show up in your knee high boots and arrest me for making statements against the state?

This is like some sort of 1984/Gulag Archipelago type stuff, man. You're losing your mind over this. Take a break, brother.

Edited February 9, 2023 by gearhog

[gearhog]

@Lawman, I found your taxes. If you got your shot, don't watch this. I don't want a stroke on my conscience.

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by gearhog

[nsplayr]

1 hour ago, gearhog said:

Just got my W-2s the other day and I paid the highest taxes I've ever paid in my life, by a lot. I hope you did, too. We should all be concerned where they're going. I'm never going to apologize for my concerns.

You realize there were no major federal income tax changes from 2021 to 2022, right?

If anything things got more favorable for most people with the standard deduction going up and brackets shifting a bit due to inflation ie more of your money is taxed at a lower rate.

So congrats on making more money this past year, drinks on you 🍻

[gearhog]

1 minute ago, nsplayr said:

You realize there were no major federal income tax changes from 2021 to 2022, right?

If anything things got more favorable for most people with the standard deduction going up and brackets shifting a bit due to inflation ie more of your money is taxed at a lower rate.

So congrats on making more money this past year, drinks on you 🍻

Right. I should have said I paid a higher amount of taxes, not a higher tax rate.

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, Lawman said:

 

 

“Hey everybody I’m not buying the Russian narrative or trying to convince you to stop providing aid to a country aligned with our interests that is actively fighting them… oh but wait let’s talk about how bad the Ukrainians are again.”

Jesus between this and you paddling the conspiracies theorist canoe about Nordstream it’s a wonder we don’t have a moderator run your IP address.


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jesus man chill out.

care to enlighten us who blew up the pipeline?

[Lawman]

jesus man chill out.
care to enlighten us who blew up the pipeline?

Obviously it was the same boat of guys that shot down Flight 800. Why don’t we get Gearpig to post some more Twitter handles with evidence of the grander conspiracy.


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[gearhog]

3 minutes ago, Lawman said:

Obviously it was the same boat of guys that shot down Flight 800. Why don’t we get Gearpig to post some more Twitter handles with evidence of the grander conspiracy.

You're flailing, my friend. It's embarrassing to watch.

[BashiChuni]

7 minutes ago, Lawman said:

Obviously it was the same boat of guys that shot down Flight 800. Why don’t we get Gearpig to post some more Twitter handles with evidence of the grander conspiracy.


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So you cannot answer my question then? Have you looked around the last few years and seen all the “conspiracy theories” that have turned out to be factual? Critical thinking on this forum is lacking. So many on here lap up the propaganda our media machine feeds them. 

[Lawman]

So you cannot answer my question then? Have you looked around the last few years and seen all the “conspiracy theories” that have turned out to be factual? Critical thinking on this forum is lacking. So many on here lap up the propaganda our media machine feeds them. 

Yes tell us all about the dangers of the media and disinformation dangers… specifically ones regarding this and how it’s impossible that you are buying the wrong parties bullshit.

https://www.brookings.edu/techstream/u-s-podcasters-spread-kremlin-narratives-on-nord-stream-sabotage/


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[tac airlifter]

23 minutes ago, Lawman said:

Yes tell us all about the dangers of the media and disinformation dangers… specifically ones regarding this and how it’s impossible that you are buying the wrong parties bullshit.

https://www.brookings.edu/techstream/u-s-podcasters-spread-kremlin-narratives-on-nord-stream-sabotage/


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Who cares whose “narrative is being spread?”  What does that even mean?  I care about the public having access to true information in order to make informed decisions about how we are governed.  Ergo, I’m primarily interested in accuracy.  I understand Putin is bad and Russia is a malign international actor who illegally invaded a neighbor and I am happy to see their troops violently losing.  But I also want to be free to ask questions and engage in discussion about what is best for my country and our interests.  It would be nice to have those discussions without being labeled a “kremlin stooge” by fellow service members.  Even if we did blow the pipeline (which I doubt but am openminded) I’m game to support if we had good reasons.  But I hate being lied to by my political leadership and disparaged by fellow vets.  
 

And Bashi’s point bears repeating— many many “conspiracies” of the past 2 years turned out to be true.  Just visit the COVID thread… what those cultists put us through us is unconscionable.  

[BashiChuni]

53 minutes ago, Lawman said:

Yes tell us all about the dangers of the media and disinformation dangers… specifically ones regarding this and how it’s impossible that you are buying the wrong parties bullshit.

https://www.brookings.edu/techstream/u-s-podcasters-spread-kremlin-narratives-on-nord-stream-sabotage/


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so who did it? how can you say it's incorrect information being put out if you cannot tell me who blew it up?

i'm AMAZED how many americans absolutely believe in censoring and blocking the "wrong" point of view.

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, Lawman said:

Yes tell us all about the dangers of the media and disinformation dangers… specifically ones regarding this and how it’s impossible that you are buying the wrong parties bullshit.

https://www.brookings.edu/techstream/u-s-podcasters-spread-kremlin-narratives-on-nord-stream-sabotage/


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There isn't a right party. There are two narratives, composed by two opposing entities, that have 2 separate agendas. That's your problem. You think there is a right and a wrong here. They're both wrong. Its up to you to find whats right by inferring what you can. 

[gearhog]

26 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

 

i'm AMAZED how many americans absolutely believe in censoring and blocking the "wrong" point of view.

Exactly. It's just censorship. Some here believe they're smart enough to know misinformation when they see it, but large swaths of the public are not. Lawman thinks he is protecting people from scary ideas by silencing the idea rather than educating the reader.

The only correct responses to bad ideas are good ideas. If you are able to adequately articulate and support your superior position, my position wouldn't even garner an acknowledgement. However, when another position has merit, it is a threat. If your motive is to "Win" rather than find the truth, you have to attempt to censor the opposing argument.

"Shut up", "Stop spreading misinformation", "You should be silenced.", "You're peddling a pro-Russian narrative.", "I'm going to find your IP address and dox you." Those are examples of attempted censorship, I'm not quoting anyone.

Lawman is slowly embodying the very things he hates about Russia. You may only speak the government approved narrative, lest ye be guilty of crimes against the state. I asked earlier in this thread, "How can so many have been fooled into supporting tyrannical leadership?" It's rhetorical because it's obvious how.

@Lawman when you were googling the logical fallacies I clued you into, did you run across "Ad hominen"? It's commonly used to mean attacking the person, not the issue. But it can also mean attacking the source, not the information. If you really want to be competitive in the battleground of ideas, you're going to have to do a little better by coming well equipped to explain why you're correct rather than taking the easy route and just calling any of us who disagree pro-Russian.

Edited February 9, 2023 by gearhog

[Lawman]

Who cares whose “narrative is being spread?”  What does that even mean?  I care about the public having access to true information in order to make informed decisions about how we are governed.  Ergo, I’m primarily interested in accuracy.  I understand Putin is bad and Russia is a malign international actor who illegally invaded a neighbor and I am happy to see their troops violently losing.  But I also want to be free to ask questions and engage in discussion about what is best for my country and our interests.  It would be nice to have those discussions without being labeled a “kremlin stooge” by fellow service members.  Even if we did blow the pipeline (which I doubt but am openminded) I’m game to support if we had good reasons.  But I hate being lied to by my political leadership and disparaged by fellow vets.  
 
And Bashi’s point bears repeating— many many “conspiracies” of the past 2 years turned out to be true.  Just visit the COVID thread… what those cultists put us through us is unconscionable.  

No the summation of the arguments he’s making is what is getting him called a stooge. This isn’t “I just want an honest open conversation about…” We can read the real intent his actions through the culmination of stated opinions and what conversations he attempts to advance and which ones deliberately avoided/ignored/bypassed. And while yes examples of historical conspiracy theorists turn out right the vast majority do not. You can’t point to media/social media bias in say hiding the Biden laptop stuff during the election, then turn around and use that as the justification for your belief that Bush did 9/11 or the moon landing didn’t happen and demand to be taken seriously with that.

Go read the other thread, dude is seriously peddling crap from Twitter handles, or wild ramblings by Seymour Herch passing it off as part of this mountain of direct evidence that we are being lied to and the US simply has to be responsible. He’s not presenting this as a possible, he’s presenting it as a fact and telling the room we’re all too stupid to put the clues together. By the way if you want a laugh go to his Twitter loon’s page the latest stuff is tinfoil crazy like the US used an Earthquake gun on Turkey. Dude is in this thread repeatedly sharing nothing but examples and stories about dubious Ukrainian actions and downplaying real examples of Russian actions. I’ll remind you he’s the one that started the whole line topic on downplaying Russian involvement in MH17, then kept trying to minimize the realities of that exact situation when challenged on it.


So what is his desired end state. Well it’s kinda the joke with the whole “I’m not racist, but” example. Make pleading statements when pressed on it about how you wants Russia to lose, but really he’s only interested in that we modify our support to an isolationist standpoint of delayed or no real tangible support to Ukraine. He and others keep implying this isn’t in our interests and we have no dog in it. We (the US and Allies) have to suddenly be hyper sensitive to some impossible purity standard in the actions/corruption/etc of a foreign state even when it’s interests directly along with our own interests. Establishing that standard we halt our current or future spending and stop delivering any kind of meaningful money or actions to support the Ukrainians. That’s exactly the outcome that aligns with Russian desires, hence why they spend the effort in influence campaigns like the ones mentioned in that Brookings Institute article.

And I’ve seen plenty of with that kind of desired end-state at the heart of their efforts on Ukraine whatever their deeper motivation to it. A bunch seem to be the “can’t let the other team have a win” types (Tucker Carlsons types) who just adopt the opposite tact and support or don’t support war when it suits them. Some are the isolationist types that just don’t want us to play the foreign policy/influence game at all or the hard Dove types who just don’t support anybody in this situation but offer no solution other than wouldn’t it be great if we all loved each other… We saw this exact same type of thing with regards to preventing us from taking actions against Isis. “We can’t support the Kurds/Yazidi/Iraqi government because…..” “Isis isn’t hurting us” stuff like that. In that previous example all those arguments did was lengthened the time to actually do something about it and the size and damage of the conflict that was churning with or without us when it was clearly the right thing to anybody that was there fighting it.


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[gearhog]

55 minutes ago, Lawman said:

No the summation of the arguments he’s making is what is getting him called a stooge. This isn’t “I just want an honest open conversation about…” We can read the real intent his actions through the culmination of stated opinions and what conversations he attempts to advance and which ones deliberately avoided/ignored/bypassed. And while yes examples of historical conspiracy theorists turn out right the vast majority do not. You can’t point to media/social media bias in say hiding the Biden laptop stuff during the election, then turn around and use that as the justification for your belief that Bush did 9/11 or the moon landing didn’t happen and demand to be taken seriously with that.

Go read the other thread, dude is seriously peddling crap from Twitter handles, or wild ramblings by Seymour Herch passing it off as part of this mountain of direct evidence that we are being lied to and the US simply has to be responsible. He’s not presenting this as a possible, he’s presenting it as a fact and telling the room we’re all too stupid to put the clues together. By the way if you want a laugh go to his Twitter loon’s page the latest stuff is tinfoil crazy like the US used an Earthquake gun on Turkey. Dude is in this thread repeatedly sharing nothing but examples and stories about dubious Ukrainian actions and downplaying real examples of Russian actions. I’ll remind you he’s the one that started the whole line topic on downplaying Russian involvement in MH17, then kept trying to minimize the realities of that exact situation when challenged on it.

So what is his desired end state. Well it’s kinda the joke with the whole “I’m not racist, but” example. Make pleading statements when pressed on it about how you wants Russia to lose, but really he’s only interested in that we modify our support to an isolationist standpoint of delayed or no real tangible support to Ukraine. He and others keep implying this isn’t in our interests and we have no dog in it. We (the US and Allies) have to suddenly be hyper sensitive to some impossible purity standard in the actions/corruption/etc of a foreign state even when it’s interests directly along with our own interests. Establishing that standard we halt our current or future spending and stop delivering any kind of meaningful money or actions to support the Ukrainians. That’s exactly the outcome that aligns with Russian desires, hence why they spend the effort in influence campaigns like the ones mentioned in that Brookings Institute article.

And I’ve seen plenty of with that kind of desired end-state at the heart of their efforts on Ukraine whatever their deeper motivation to it. A bunch seem to be the “can’t let the other team have a win” types (Tucker Carlsons types) who just adopt the opposite tact and support or don’t support war when it suits them. Some are the isolationist types that just don’t want us to play the foreign policy/influence game at all or the hard Dove types who just don’t support anybody in this situation but offer no solution other than wouldn’t it be great if we all loved each other… We saw this exact same type of thing with regards to preventing us from taking actions against Isis. “We can’t support the Kurds/Yazidi/Iraqi government because…..” “Isis isn’t hurting us” stuff like that. In that previous example all those arguments did was lengthened the time to actually do something about it and the size and damage of the conflict that was churning with or without us when it was clearly the right thing to anybody that was there fighting it.

I'll give you a B- for effort, but the content is rambling, disjointed, and non-coherent. I'm glad you're trying to explain your position as I suggested, but it kinda sucks. No one is going to read what you wrote and come away with a clear understanding what your primary argument is. If you have a question about my position or want me to clarify something you didn't like, I am more than happy to give you an honest answer, but I honestly can't quite make out what you're whining about.

Are you just mad about my very plain and easy to understand argument that I don't want us sending hundreds of billions we don't have, to escalate a conflict that costs us more than it helps us, just to expand access to wealth and resources by fighting an over-hyped boogeyman? Fine. Go ahead, be mad about. It doesn't change anything.

Try posting some links, news articles, or opinions from someone who actually knows how to write. Maybe we can have rational debate over them. Otherwise, you'll just continue to repeat yourself and your poor opinion of me. No one cares about that. Me least of all.

[Lawman]

I'll give you a B- for effort, but the content is rambling, disjointed, and non-coherent. I'm glad you're trying to explain your position as I suggested, but it kinda sucks. No one is going to read what you wrote and come away with a clear understanding what your primary argument is. If you have a question about my position or want me to clarify something you didn't like, I am more than happy to give you an honest answer, but I honestly can't quite make out what you're whining about.
Are you just mad about my very plain and easy to understand argument that I don't want us sending hundreds of billions we don't have, to escalate a conflict that costs us more than it helps us, just to expand access to wealth and resources by fighting an over-hyped boogeyman? Fine. Go ahead, be mad about. It doesn't change anything.
Try posting some links, news articles, or opinions from someone who actually knows how to write. Maybe we can have rational debate over them. Otherwise, you'll just continue to repeat yourself and your poor opinion of me. No one cares about that. Me least of all.

Again as others have pointed out this is the cheapest form of spending we have ever had in regards to opposing Russian influence and attempts to hinder our efforts and interests and positively affect their own.

If you were at all honest in your sudden alarm to the cost of these efforts (let alone wider foreign policy) Id encourage you to compare the ongoing costs of Atlantic Resolve deployments against the pitifully low cost of our efforts to aid Ukraine to date. It costs a little less than 2 billion in current costs just to rotate an Armor brigade or similar heavy element. That’s the direct cost, it doesn’t even begin to scratch the manpower negative we get on sustainment with those rotations. We only started doing that in direct response to Russian aggression in Crimea.


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[gearhog]

1 minute ago, Lawman said:

Again as others have pointed out this is the cheapest form of spending we have ever had in regards to opposing Russian influence and attempts to hinder our efforts and interests and positively affect their own.

If you were at all honest in your sudden alarm to the cost of these efforts (let alone wider foreign policy) Id encourage you to compare the ongoing costs of Atlantic Resolve deployments against the pitifully low cost of our efforts to aid Ukraine to date. It costs a little less than 2 billion in current costs just to rotate an Armor brigade or similar heavy element. That’s the direct cost, it doesn’t even begin to scratch the manpower negative we get on sustainment with those rotations. We only started doing that in direct response to Russian aggression in Crimea.

It's still spending. What Russian influence? What were they influencing that you are so concerned about? Were you worried that they may be experiencing economic growth by exporting resources from their own patch of dirt? Were they interfering in our elections resulting in fraudulent outcomes? Were they parking missiles just outside the borders of the US? As someone has said before, they're spinning their wheels in the mud fighting the poorest and most corrupt country in Europe...and you fear them enough to sell out your financial future?

We spend billions on deployments, so what's a few tens of billions more? I don't understand how that makes sense to you when you're trying to assuage anyone's concerns about spending.

[Lawman]

It's still spending. What Russian influence? What were they influencing that you are so concerned about? Were you worried that they may be experiencing economic growth by exporting resources from their own patch of dirt? Were they interfering in our elections resulting in fraudulent outcomes? Were they parking missiles just outside the borders of the US? As someone has said before, they're spinning their wheels in the mud fighting the poorest and most corrupt country in Europe...and you fear them enough to sell out your financial future?
We spend billions on deployments, so what's a few tens of billions more? I don't understand how that makes sense to you when you're trying to assuage anyone's concerns about spending.

Again we didn’t start this, and your efforts to be sympathetic to the Russian point of view aren’t lost on the adults in the room.

We didn’t start a war with a European neighbor, they did. We didn’t invade a country under false pretenses to overthrow its government and attempt to replace it with a more amenable vassal state, they did. And they are “spinning their wheels” because in no small amount of efforts to bolster the Ukrainian military by U.S. and other NATO nations since they started annexing territory in 2014. You seem to either fail to understand that or deliberately do not acknowledge it as the effect of Russian aggression not the cause of it.

Our enhanced posturing and things like Atlantic Resolve are costing us billions and have been since 2014. They are costing us manpower because of the increased demand on families and soldiers which costs more in the long run due to lost experience and the requirement to restore it. The Army has acknowledged the desire to go to the lower cost EDRE enhanced model of maintaining readiness and deterrence without the full on deployments of rotational combat forces, but that has been predicated on the cessation of direct hostilities by Russia against its European neighbors, which I’ll remind you yet again came first before the deployments started.


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[gearhog]

21 minutes ago, Lawman said:

Again we didn’t start this, and your efforts to be sympathetic to the Russian point of view aren’t lost on the adults in the room.

Let me know if you find one. I'm not sympathetic to Russia. I don't care about nor have any interest in Russia. I hope their political system fails. I'm concerned about holding my own country to account and ensure that we maintain some semblance of being an objective force for good, and not lies, deceit, and corruption like the govt we're funding.

So you're just going to completely ignore my questions about what Russian influence you're concerned about? I wonder why.

21 minutes ago, Lawman said:

We didn’t invade a country under false pretenses to overthrow its government and attempt to replace it with a more amenable vassal state, they did.

LOL. Oh really? I immediately thought of this when I read that.

 

21 minutes ago, Lawman said:

And they are “spinning their wheels” because in no small amount of efforts to bolster the Ukrainian military by U.S. and other NATO nations since they started annexing territory in 2014. You seem to either fail to understand that or deliberately do not acknowledge it as the effect of Russian aggression not the cause of it.

I'm not just creating these concerns out of thin air. I've done a little research before I've decided if my concerns were worth having. If anyone bothered to look at what occurred in Ukraine around 2014, this current crisis is not some noble endeavor to spread freedom and democracy. Around that time, Ukraine was being offered trade and economic incentives by the EU. Russia countered with an economic package of their own. President Yanukovych, who was elected in large part by Eastern Ukrainians who align with Russia. He began to indicate he favored the Russian deal. Obviously, this would mean a major loss to the EU and the US as they were counting on the economic and energy resources a country like Ukraine would bring to the struggling EU. Yanukovich had also signed a long term Sevastopol Naval Base lease with Russia.

None of this good for the West. Coincidentally around that time, pro-EU and Western Ukrainian nationalist protests broke out. They became violent and a coup took place. There were attacks on the LDPR aligned Ukrainians in the East by nationalist forces from the West. Poroshenko was installed and Eastern Ukraine was threatened with being barred from participation in elections. He also began negotiations with the West to remove the LDPR, terminate the Sevastopol naval base lease and lease it to NATO. Russia said "No." Invaded and took Crimea without firing a shot.

Russia was assisting LDPR in the east. They won battles against the Western Ukr. Then the UNSC sactioned Minsk agreements were to give LDPR autonomy, create a ceasefire, and remove foreign assistance from both sides. But those agreements were not adhered to, likely by either side. Conflict continued and a stalemate ensued. The West was getting impatient. In early 2021, Ukraine nationalists had a massive mobilization on the contact lines to take Eastern LDPR territories by force. They were receiving help from the US and NATO. Russia viewed this as a further expansion of NATO and began building forces on the border with Ukraine. You know the rest.

21 minutes ago, Lawman said:

Our enhanced posturing and things like Atlantic Resolve are costing us billions and have been since 2014. They are costing us manpower because of the increased demand on families and soldiers which costs more in the long run due to lost experience and the requirement to restore it. The Army has acknowledged the desire to go to the lower cost EDRE enhanced model of maintaining readiness and deterrence without the full on deployments of rotational combat forces, but that has been predicated on the cessation of direct hostilities by Russia against its European neighbors, which I’ll remind you yet again came first before the deployments started.

Uh.. yeah. Exactly. We shouldn't have been incurring any of these costs. If NATO didn't fund a Ukrainian civil war and the installation of a pro-Western government hell bent on NATO membership, none of those families and soldiers would have been apart, and we'd have saved billions.

Edited February 10, 2023 by gearhog

[Lawman]

words

Oh you definitely sound like you “did your own research on the matter.”

Again, you say you aren’t sympathetic to the Russians absurd view that this is all justified, then you list out tit for tat pretty much their interpretations of the Maiden protests and other pretexts for invasion of Ukraine. Your little history lesson ignores a lot including the long established history of the guy those protests resulted in deposing (you know the one that won the first set of rigged elections a decade earlier after his opponent was mysteriously poisoned then later lost). Then there’s how he got elected after Russia used economic embargo of gas and other means to paralyze Ukraine’s infrastructure and work to foment the western push that got him elected the second time. Oh and Russia actually did join the rest of the world in recognizing the new Ukrainian president. They just did so after they annexed portions of the country they wanted and staged rigged elections to support their actions as legitimate.

Just a quick reminder…. The Donbas and Crimea both belonged to Ukraine. What next you gonna tell us this was really about de-nazification or some other excuse that absolves them of any culpability in the decade long war inside the borders of a neighbor?


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