Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[tac airlifter]

7 hours ago, ViperStud said:

Unfortunately the front runner for the nomination is on record praising the man repeatedly. Clips are easy to find.
 

I would rephrase your claim of “using” the Ukrainians to simply state that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, or ally. We spend far more on way less....

I looked and cannot find a single "pro-Putin"  quote from Trump. If you could provide something specific, I would possibly better understand your point.  FYI, a world leader saying "hey I met this guy, he's not the devil, we can work together" is normal dialogue.  Post UKR war Trump maturely stated (paraphrasing) "yes Putin is a killer, but there are lots of killers and I'll work with everyone to secure a peace deal."  If you can find actual Putin knob gobbling please post, otherwise your point is disproven.

For your second point, yes, I'm sure you would rephrase it to sound cleaner. However the coldhearted truth is we are sacrificing a generation of Ukrainian youth to attrit our historic geo-political foe.  We are military professionals not politicians, I'm not being judgmental about the tactic. But speak plainly to me rather than disguise the action with flowery language.

Yes, paying a UKR dictator to forcibly conscript his citizens to kill Russians, blow up their stuff at scale and ascertain which of our systems work best is effective.  Let's sidestep the morality discussion. This tactic is an elegant solution for now, but I don't think we can afford it on the time scale UKR would require to eject all Russian forces from its territory (their definition of "win").   Starting from that assumption on my part (that our country is incapable of multibillion-dollar aid packages in perpetuity) I think it's strategically in our interest to find a new approach forward in UKR to secure our interests.  To be clear, that likely involves accepting Russia holds portions of the Eastern territory and we cease NATO expansion eastward.  I'm fine with both concessions, we have bigger concerns elsewhere.

1 hour ago, ViperStud said:

Korea, Grenada, Libia, Kosovo, Gulf 1 are some successes off the top of my head. Our involvement in each is arguably larger than current in UKR, especially direct troop support. Take your head out of Trump’s ass long enough to read a book or two 😂

Korea?  Not a single Korean War vet I've met thinks the effort was a "success" and worth watching their buddies freeze to death.  And the unfavorable situation has continued to plague us.  

Libya?  Last time I was there (post invasion) it was a total shit show that the world has forgotten but terrorist organizations have not.  Our countries interests were much better served with Kadafi holding an iron grip on the country.  If you know anything about the war or were involved in fighting it, you'll know that his massive arms stockpiles were stolen and proliferated both to Syria (throwing gasoline on that simmering Civil War) and also across the African continent resulting in the rise of leaders like MBM and organizations like AQIM & Boko Haram.  

Kosovo... curious why you think this is successful. Yes we stuck our fingers in a small scale regional conflict and ultimately got our way.  But at what cost?  I spent some time studying the rise of Jihadi culture in the 1990s, which academically I find an interesting time period for them as the movement rode success against Russia in the 80s with a season of self-discovery (was I merely a regional phenomenon whose time has passed, or do I have a broader, global future?). Lots of informative literature showing we would have been smarter to encourage a generation of Jihadis to spend themselves in the Serb meat grinder. For that matter, we should have encouraged both Chechen wars & used Russia to attrit our foe.  We could have done to jihadis (for free) what you're desirous of doing to RUS in UKR.  No, Kosovo is not a win.

GW1?  That definitely looked like a win in 1994, but once we got bogged down with ONW & OSW then everything post 2002 i'm wondering what about that conflict leads you to conclude it was decisively finalized the way World War II was?  In hindsight it looks like a strategic failure to me, managed by weak-kneed leadership convinced of their own intelligence while lacking the fortitude to see enemies vanquished.  A consistent theme of our recent history, resulting in consistent failures worldwide.

i'll grant you Granada. Good job USA 🇺🇸

[ViperStud]

Dude there are complications to EVERY military conflict. South Korea is still independent and flourishing. Libya was stopped from pursuing nukes. Kosovo like you said ultimately got our way. GW1 and the liberation of Kuwait was a clear success. I view GW1 separately from events after 2002. 
 

My point stands, “zero success” post-ww2 is hyperbole. If we’re going to have an honest discussion, it starts with being objective. 

[HeloDude]

13 hours ago, ViperStud said:

Im not equating them…

Then don’t equate them.  You can be for ending financial/military support to Ukraine and not be pro-Putin or pro-Russia invasion of Ukraine.  Just like if someone was against the invasion of Iraq didn’t mean that they were pro-Saddam Hussein.

[BashiChuni]

7 hours ago, ViperStud said:

Korea, Grenada, Libia, Kosovo, Gulf 1 are some successes off the top of my head. Our involvement in each is arguably larger than current in UKR, especially direct troop support. Take your head out of Trump’s ass long enough to read a book or two 😂

LOL omg this guy

yeah korea stalemate since 1950 big win.

gulf 1 hardly a success. went back 20 years later. current iraq allowing iranian shia militas to attack US troops. acting as iranian proxy. big win.

libya* (spell check my dude) US ambassador and US security contractors murdered and country in civil war. big win.

GRENADA?! that's all you got my guy? LOL wow. unbelievable.

Edited December 29, 2023 by BashiChuni

[BashiChuni]

https://www.newsweek.com/biden-warns-us-military-may-get-pulled-direct-conflict-russia-1856613

 

THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN WARNING ABOUT ALL ALONG

[Lawman]

https://www.newsweek.com/biden-warns-us-military-may-get-pulled-direct-conflict-russia-1856613
 
THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN WARNING ABOUT ALL ALONG

Well you either didn’t read the article, or you’ve completely reversed yourself to the point most of us have been making.

That point being. that it’s far safer for all of us to see Russia culminate in depletion of its capability in Ukraine rather than get froggy and try for the Baltics next.


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[Lord Ratner]

1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

yeah korea stalemate since 1950 big win.

You know there is still a South Korea, right?

 

You have the most curiously simplistic view I've seen in a long time. That's not to say the argument against Ukraine aid is necessarily simplistic. It's mostly just you.

[BashiChuni]

7 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

You know there is still a South Korea, right?

 

You have the most curiously simplistic view I've seen in a long time. That's not to say the argument against Ukraine aid is necessarily simplistic. It's mostly just you.

Disagree. But nice dig. 

[Lawman]

You know there is still a South Korea, right?
 
You have the most curiously simplistic view I've seen in a long time. That's not to say the argument against Ukraine aid is necessarily simplistic. It's mostly just you.

There’s also the intangible side of the cost argument.

Full rage Conflicts are actually a culmination of late stage Foreign Policy. The fact we are living in the longest continuous period of human prosperity built largely on the western globalist system is proof of greater total success than simply counting up Korea, Vietnam, and GWOT and dismissing every action of foreign policy as folly.

Same is true of the argument for dollar figures and limits to them on Ukrainian aid. Go look at the intelligence we got out of Israel during its proxy conflicts with our super power adversary. “Have Donut” just for example led directly to a massive shift in fighter tactics in the Navy and Air Force that had direct effect on the battlefield. Our electronic warfare programs which were foundational in our air playbook in GWI were tested and developed largely using those same regional conflicts and lessons preserved in the vault for an “on the day” event with the Soviet Bear.

Same situation is happening right now in Ukraine. We validated billions of dollars in equipment investment just in HIMARs alone through its demonstrated performance it’s not just a guess now. We also learned a hell of a lot of “oh we better fix that right now” situations since we started supporting the Ukrainians in 2014. And when we are sending weapons largely at the end of their useful shelf life (example: M26 and ATACMs) what is the acceptable cost worth in number of exploitative efforts by the intel community? And how much deterrence in Russia and the wider sphere of everybody using their kit or the massive investment in our own by Allie’s do you think this conflict has bought? What’s a dollar figure on that?


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[ViperStud]

3 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

yeah korea stalemate since 1950 big win.

You know that stalemate involved pushing them back to the 38th with a stationary, mostly non-kinetic, border for 69+ years (and counting)…and an economically thriving South Korea, right?

1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

https://www.newsweek.com/biden-warns-us-military-may-get-pulled-direct-conflict-russia-1856613

 

THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN WARNING ABOUT ALL ALONG

Cool well I guess we agree now. I didn’t know you had so much respect for Biden…I’m not with you on that one. 
 

Siri didn’t catch my typo, that bitch! I award you one grammar Nazi point. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by ViperStud
Typos! Don’t want BC getting more grammar Nazi points

[Lord Ratner]

3 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

Disagree. But nice dig. 

Sorry dude, you communicate like a frustrated toddler. If I had to bet on who's just the random person on the forum, and not an educated officer with leadership experience, you are probably my top guess. 

 

And considering we have Biff here now, that's saying something 🤣😂.

[BashiChuni]

2 hours ago, ViperStud said:

You know that stalemate involved pushing them back to the 38th with a stationary, mostly non-kinetic, border for 69+ years (and counting)…and an economically thriving South Korea, right?

Cool well I guess we agree now. I didn’t know you had so much respect for Biden…I’m not with you on that one. 
 

Siri didn’t catch my typo, that bitch! I award you one grammar Nazi point. 

i don't count cease fire agreements as wins. maybe you do.

[brwwg&b]

42 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

i don't count cease fire agreements as wins. maybe you do.

I bet if there was a cease fire in Ukraine signed tomorrow you'd count that as a win. LordRatner is right, you're overly simplistic and fail to understand any complexity in the world beyond A therefore B. Go back to your cave.

[ViperStud]

Bashi the Black Knight

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by ViperStud
!

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, brwwg&b said:

I bet if there was a cease fire in Ukraine signed tomorrow you'd count that as a win. LordRatner is right, you're overly simplistic and fail to understand any complexity in the world beyond A therefore B. Go back to your cave.

there could have been a agreement hammered out before hundreds of thousands of deaths but the USA and UK killed it.

[ViperStud]

24 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

there could have been a agreement hammered out before hundreds of thousands of deaths but the USA and UK killed it.

Source?

[Lord Ratner]

2 hours ago, ViperStud said:

Source?

It is a fairly reliable claim. Very early on there was at least talk of a negotiated truce before everything got really ugly. Whether or not that ever would have happened is speculation we will never know.

[Lawman]

It is a fairly reliable claim. Very early on there was at least talk of a negotiated truce before everything got really ugly. Whether or not that ever would have happened is speculation we will never know.

We were trying to extract the legitimate government of Ukraine with use of non conventional assets and they refused to come out in the opening hours of this war.

What exactly is legitimate that Ukraine was seeking a negotiated peace while Russia was driving on Kiev from Hostamel’s failed air assault and the Belarus convoy and somehow we convinced them to just keep rolling the dice?

This sounds like more of the same bullshit blame the “western globalist,” nonsense he’s been pushing this whole thread. Somehow this is “our fault” for this war and not acknowledging Putin for exactly the threat he is.


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[ViperStud]

45 minutes ago, Lawman said:

We were trying to extract the legitimate government of Ukraine with use of non conventional assets and they refused to come out in the opening hours of this war.

What exactly is legitimate that Ukraine was seeking a negotiated peace while Russia was driving on Kiev from Hostamel’s failed air assault and the Belarus convoy and somehow we convinced them to just keep rolling the dice?

This sounds like more of the same bullshit blame the “western globalist,” nonsense he’s been pushing this whole thread. Somehow this is “our fault” for this war and not acknowledging Putin for exactly the threat he is.


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This. My point in asking for a source is that one doesn’t exist for black knight’s simplistic claim.
 

The idea/claim that there was a concerted effort to extract government members and cede the entire country does not equate to an attempt to save 400k lives. It ignores the reality that “saving 400k lives” (mostly Russian aggressors, BTW) would have meant allowing Russia to annex all of Ukraine. 
 

If China were to attack Guam and Hawaii, would we “win” by ceding them both to save lives? I’d argue 1M lives lost to defend them would be a worthy cause. By black knight Bashi Chuni’s metrics, that defense would be another L in the win/loss column. God forbid there were a ceasefire at some point during that hypothetical conflict, he’d probably count it as two losses. 

[bfargin]

27 minutes ago, ViperStud said:

This. My point in asking for a source is that one doesn’t exist for black knight’s simplistic claim.
 

The idea/claim that there was a concerted effort to extract government members and cede the entire country does not equate to an attempt to save 400k lives. It ignores the reality that “saving 400k lives” (mostly Russian aggressors, BTW) would have meant allowing Russia to annex all of Ukraine. 
 

If China were to attack Guam and Hawaii, would we “win” by ceding them both to save lives? I’d argue 1M lives lost to defend them would be a worthy cause. By black knight Bashi Chuni’s metrics, that defense would be another L in the win/loss column. God forbid there were a ceasefire at some point during that hypothetical conflict, he’d probably count it as two losses. 

YGTBSM ... allow almost the total number of American war deaths (from all of the wars we've fought to date - 1Mil vs ~1.3Mil) to save Guam?

[Lord Ratner]

7 hours ago, bfargin said:

YGTBSM ... allow almost the total number of American war deaths (from all of the wars we've fought to date - 1Mil vs ~1.3Mil) to save Guam?

 

7 hours ago, ViperStud said:

and Hawaii,

 

7 hours ago, bfargin said:

ceding them both

 

This doesn't have to be that hard.

[Biff_T]

17 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Sorry dude, you communicate like a frustrated toddler. If I had to bet on who's just the random person on the forum, and not an educated officer with leadership experience, you are probably my top guess. 

 

And considering we have Biff here now, that's saying something 🤣😂.

I was an O-3E..    I have an excuse. I knew my aircraft and could fly that mother fucker better than most.. Ask someone.

I'll get the mission done but I wasn't the guy to send to the staff meeting in place of the CC.  They only made that mistake once lol. COLs didn't like me because I told them the truth.  They liked me as a pilot though.  Especially on shitty missions. 

I like being a toddler.  

I like to argue with my 👊 .

If they ever call me out of retirement to go kill more bad guys.  I'll be ready.

Just don't expect me to act like English royalty while I wear the uniform.

Break Break. 

Russsia sucks. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Biff_T
Not Exec

[raimius]

4 hours ago, Biff_T said:

I was an O-3E..    I have an excuse. I knew my aircraft and could fly that mother fucker better than most.. Ask someone.

Can confirm preventing at least one dumb copilot from pancaking an aircraft.

...but don't call the Huey names.  She doesn't deserve that.

[FourFans]

The lack of nuanced analytical thinking about the complex and highly dynamic subjects addressed in this thread is palpable.  

Biff, I'm pretty sure you're the most even keel here.

Edited December 30, 2023 by FourFans

[bfargin]

If China attacked Hawaii, China would no longer exist as we currently know it. I'd launch everything we have that makes things glow from the West coast and destroy every major city, military complex, and populated region of China. There'd be no nuance about it. Obviously with Guam my calculus is slightly different but I wouldn't just fight a battle where we were losing men and women slowly in a meat grinder. If talks didn't work quickly then they might get hit with the same massive strike as in scenario 1.