Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[DSG]

9 hours ago, Lawman said:

The longest continual span of human prosperity in recorded modern history?

You know we doubled the average human lifespan since WWII right?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

And?

[ClearedHot]

Both sides continue to pay a terrible price. 

The Russians have long been masters of propaganda, but they have not embraced social media at the same level as the Ukrainians.  There are hundreds if not thousands of videos like the one below showing the lethal effects of small drones and air dropped munitions.  I hope the lads and lasses in the five sided building have been paying attention.

 

 

[Lawman]

And?

What do you think set global conditions to stabilize and evolve enough to allow that?

Exactly what did we squander?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BashiChuni]

2 hours ago, ViperStud said:

 

You were the one literally scoffing, and laughing, at dudes contributing to current ops. If you’re content burying yourself in trainers, good for you - but belittling those who want to do that AND/OR stay relevant in our country’s current military ops, that reeks of insecurity.

I stand by my comment (like many) you refuse to address - it isn’t “bizarre” to be happy about seeing the people we’ve trained and advised firsthand experiencing success. You dismiss that as a bunch of dudes sitting in their parents’ basements cheering for Russian casualties while watching Red Dawn and Rocky IV on repeat. Again, that reeks of insecurity.

 

"Just because you’ve been hiding behind the flaming dildo shield of AETC (where your only “enemy” is some mythical timeline) doesn’t mean we’ve all been hiding there."

who was belittling who? haha. it is bizarre to be war thirsty. war sucks and we shouldn't want to escalate anything into WW3 that's just insane. and i'm very secure in myself, my career, and post career. very happy too! hope you find happiness as well!

[BashiChuni]

58 minutes ago, Lawman said:

What do you think set global conditions to stabilize and evolve enough to allow that?

Exactly what did we squander?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

tens of thousands of American lives for useless wars. that enough for you?

[ViperStud]

20 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

Words

Correct, I am 💯 belittling dudes who hide in AETC while simultaneously burying their head in the sand WRT current ops and playing apologist for everything America does.

It’s possible to be an instructor and stay relevant. That’s what I, and so many bros at my unit, have done. I’m also accruing airline seniority while I do it. I’m happy AF, thanks, mostly because I’m not a one-trick pony. 
 

ETA: Pride in the success of our allies does not equal blood thirst. You live in a world of false dichotomies where the truth must boil down to a bumper sticker slogan. Improve your critical thinking and communication skills if you want to have meaningful adult conversations. 

Edited January 19 by ViperStud

[BashiChuni]

good i'm glad. no one is burying their head in the sand. you're confusing a dissenting opinion with ignorance.

https://news.yahoo.com/nato-warns-war-russia-next-215119896.html

"On Thursday, David Cameron warned against 1930s-style appeasement of Vladimir Putin and promised Britain would     keep supporting Ukraine in the “struggle of our generation”.

The Foreign Secretary urged Britain’s allies not to push for peace talks between Kyiv and Moscow, arguing that unifying behind Ukraine was the best way to end the war."

 

this is dangerous and will only lead to escalation. ukraine cannot defeat russia. we need to be encouraging peace talks NOT stonewalling them. what's the alternative? escalation. that's not in the best interest of the united states.

[Lawman]

tens of thousands of American lives for useless wars. that enough for you?

For Christ sake…

You are an American. You sit in the velvet rope section of being the single Super Power atop the panicle of Human Achievement and experience.

How do you think we got here? Because our great grand parents damn sure didn’t experience that position in the world. More importantly how do you think we managed to stay there all these decades?

By your bullshit metric every life lost training at Red Flag or service member killed in a rollover at NTC was “wasted,” because it didn’t come as a tally in a massive global conflict we could stand around in the ashes of and call ourselves the winner. Deterrence and effects of statecraft and influence cost blood and treasure. They cost a lot less than results of disengagement and apathy leading into a wider global conflict.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BashiChuni]

the United states would sill be the united states if we never went into korea or vietnam.

theme: US getting involved in small regional conflicts under the premise of "saving democracy". dangerous and foolish.

also your red flag analogy is bull shit.

[Lawman]

the United states would sill be the united states if we never went into korea or vietnam.
theme: US getting involved in small regional conflicts under the premise of "saving democracy". dangerous and foolish.
also your red flag analogy is bull shit.

What Asian trade partners would we have in Asia right now if we sat on our ass in Korea for your example. How much trade would we do with a unified peninsula under the DPRK and what would that then do for our economy.

Middle East same question during the Tanker war or the current stupidity off the Red Sea.

Foreign policy is an active game, you can’t just sit it out. We aren’t Monaco.


Again listening to you talk about the deaths and regional conflicts we “lost,” is like listening to a guy up millions of dollars at the casino still bitching about that 20k loss he took 6 hands ago. You’re winning, recognize that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DSG]

10 hours ago, Lawman said:

What do you think set global conditions to stabilize and evolve enough to allow that?

Exactly what did we squander?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The U.S. is in imminent peril of being ejected from the western pacific by a country that had a triple digit gdp per capita in recent memory.  

[Lawman]

The U.S. is in imminent peril of being ejected from the western pacific by a country that had a triple digit gdp per capita in recent memory.  

You mean that country that imports most of its Food and fertilizer along with all of its energy via the Ocean… that country?

The one that could be singularly isolated because it can’t project power further than those Island chains/peninsulas that all hate and surround it during a conventional conflict?

The one that has lied about 5% GDP year on year growth because we know it’s BS and is currently in a demographic free fall while we (the developed world) all make movements to reshore the sunk cost of cheap manufactured goods out of it?

I’m not saying China and US going at it doesn’t result in collective pain for the world because any conflict between the great powers will (hence why unified western support of Ukraine is such a good deterrent). But the Idea that China’s trajectory is just gonna keep increasing and they come out of this to supplant us is a dream.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FourFans]

1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

the United states would sill be the united states if we never went into korea or vietnam.

theme: US getting involved in small regional conflicts under the premise of "saving democracy". dangerous and foolish.

also your red flag analogy is bull shit.

You do understand that simply stating something is wrong doesn't make your statement true, right?  That's how the left argues.  You're arguing the prove of a negative event...which is impossible.  Also, simply calling his analogy BS doesn't mean he's wrong.  You haven't provided a shred of factual data or logical deduction to support your claims.  

(this is me presenting evidence, because you seem to completely ignore when people do that): Those of us who've actually been downrange and seen and experienced the cost of our modern fights have at least a shadow of a leg to stand on in our arguments.  I've see and experienced the cost of our fight.  I've lived in countries that doesn't have our freedoms.  The cost we've paid has been dear, and entirely worth it.  If we hadn't fought in Vietnam, Korea, Saudi, Afghanistan, Iraq, or any other war that you argue we shouldn't have, it stands to reason that the US would not have the stranglehold it does on world economic, political, and military power.  People who've never left America say we don't have that stranglehold.  Those who've paid attention when the live abroad can't even begin to present a logical argument against US dominance, it's THAT powerful (that's a logical argument based on factual observations).  Reason tells us that the US wouldn't have that dominance if we hadn't engaged internationally of the past 80 years.  The facts of the matter are that our dominance can be directly traced to our engagement worldwide.  Yes it's dangerous, but history tells us that engaging is risky, but not engaging is often much more risky.  "Wait and see" tactics have often proven disastrous in international politics.  Moreover, ethics and morality dictate that we have a responsibility to engage in places where the strong are wrongly preying on the weak.  

What is it that you've experienced or what facts do you present to support your claim that the US should have been completely isolationist?

Edited January 20 by FourFans

[DSG]

11 minutes ago, Lawman said:

You mean that country that imports most of its Food and fertilizer along with all of its energy via the Ocean… that country?

The one that could be singularly isolated because it can’t project power further than those Island chains/peninsulas that all hate and surround it during a conventional conflict?

The one that has lied about 5% GDP year on year growth because we know it’s BS and is currently in a demographic free fall while we (the developed world) all make movements to reshore the sunk cost of cheap manufactured goods out of it?

I’m not saying China and US going at it doesn’t result in collective pain for the world because any conflict between the great powers will (hence why unified western support of Ukraine is such a good deterrent). But the Idea that China’s trajectory is just gonna keep increasing and they come out of this to supplant us is a dream.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The mere fact that such scenario is plausible is indicative of criminal incompetence among our policy “elite.” 

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, Lawman said:

What Asian trade partners would we have in Asia right now if we sat on our ass in Korea for your example. How much trade would we do with a unified peninsula under the DPRK and what would that then do for our economy.

Middle East same question during the Tanker war or the current stupidity off the Red Sea.

Foreign policy is an active game, you can’t just sit it out. We aren’t Monaco.


Again listening to you talk about the deaths and regional conflicts we “lost,” is like listening to a guy up millions of dollars at the casino still bitching about that 20k loss he took 6 hands ago. You’re winning, recognize that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

you are so out of touch

agree to disagree. guess what? we'd have some asia trading partners if korea wasn't there. we'd have someone in the ME to sell us oil.

i'm not saying to sit out FP. i'm saying ours has been a disaster.

American combat deaths and causalities post WWII shouldn't be glossed over and written off. what did the men who died in vietnam really die for? what did the men and women who died in afghanistan and iraq die for? as a participant in the armed forces i'd hope you would have a little more empathy for your fellow servicemen who are sent into the battle.

[BashiChuni]

1 minute ago, FourFans said:

You haven't provided a shred of factual data or logical deduction to support your claims.  

 

i dont have time right now to respond to your entire reply but yes i do have factual data.

we have not won a military conflict since WWII. that's factual. and logical.

[DSG]

1 minute ago, FourFans said:

Do you understand that simply stating something doesn't make it true, right?  You're arguing the prove of a negative event...which is impossible.  Also, simply calling his analogy BS doesn't mean it's wrong.  You haven't provided a shred of factual data or logical deduction to support your claims.  

(this is me presenting evidence, because you seem to completely ignore when people do that): Those of us who've actually been downrange and seen and experienced the cost of our modern fights have at least a shadow of a leg to stand on in our arguments.  I've see and experienced the cost of our fight.  I've lived in countries that doesn't have our freedoms.  The cost we've paid has been dear, and entirely worth it.  If we hadn't fought in Vietnam, Korea, Saudi, Afghanistan, Iraq, or any other war that you argue we shouldn't have, it stands to reason that the US would not have the stranglehold it does on world economic, political, and military power.  People who've never left America say we don't have that stranglehold.  Those who've paid attention when the live abroad can't even begin to present a logical argument against US dominance, it's THAT powerful (that's a logical argument based on factual observations).  Reason tells us that the US wouldn't have that dominance if we hadn't engaged internationally of the past 80 years.  Moreover, ethics and morality dictate that we have a responsibility to engage in places where the strong are wrongly preying on the weak.

What is it that you've experienced or what facts do you present to support your claim that the US should have been completely isolationist?

“Reason” argues no such thing.  “Ethics and morality” are made up. 

[FourFans]

Just now, BashiChuni said:

we have not won a military conflict since WWII. that's factual. and logical.

So Desert Shield, Panama, Grenada, Kosovo, Haiti, Northern and Southern Watch...those didn't happen.  Cool.  Very factual of you.

[FourFans]

3 minutes ago, DSG said:

“Reason” argues no such thing.  “Ethics and morality” are made up. 

How so?  Again, simply stating an opinion doesn't make it true.

Edited January 20 by FourFans

[DSG]

21 minutes ago, FourFans said:

How so?  Again, simply stating an opinion doesn't make it true.

Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.  Still, it’s striking that in America, it’s those that present themselves as “weak” that are the biggest bullies and thieves.  Abroad, America has little moral leg to stand on, to put it mildly.
 

Your appeal to reason lacks evidence and is non-falsifiable; there is no control group scenario in which America husbands its strength instead of “engaging.”  I see an enormously powerful economic engine, powered substantially by inertia, that continues to dominate the world in spite of its government and foreign policy, not because of it.  Not a libertarian statement, by the way.  I believe government can play a commanding and positive role — ours just isn’t such an example. 

[Lawman]

So Desert Shield, Panama, Grenada, Kosovo, Haiti, Northern and Southern Watch...those didn't happen.  Cool.  Very factual of you.

Current actions in the Red Sea…

The Tanker Wars, Prime Chance, and Praying Mantis…


But remember, unless a major global power ceases to be afterward through complete capitulation of its government it’s a loss and total waste of effort in his brain.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lawman]

Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.  Still, it’s striking that in America, it’s those that present themselves as “weak” that are the biggest bullies and thieves.  Abroad, America has little moral leg to stand on, to put it mildly.
 
Your appeal to reason lacks evidence and is non-falsifiable; there is no control group scenario in which America husbands its strength instead of “engaging.”  I see an enormously powerful economic engine, powered substantially by inertia, that continues to dominate the world in spite of its government and foreign policy, not because of it.  Not a libertarian statement, by the way.  I believe government can play a commanding and positive role — ours just isn’t such an example. 

What?

I’ll just take ISIS for an example but have you been in Iraq in the last decade?

You’re making an argument we have no moral righteousness in use of our military but we were fighting guys literally putting Christian and other Muslim villages to the sword over there like it was the 14th century.


And remember we have been the world’s most powerful economy since before our participation in the First World War. We had surpassed the British and German Empires… that didn’t stop them from having two world wars. And now that the economics of the world are global in supply and resource chains there is absolutely no way to sit it out. Unless you want to just absorb whatever happens to the price of everything because we can’t move ships off the Red Sea anymore just as an example.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lord Ratner]

2 hours ago, DSG said:

Abroad, America has little moral leg to stand on, to put it mildly.

And which countries are the icons of morality in your mind?

Especially considering you just said this, pardon me for considering this statement a bit ironic.

2 hours ago, DSG said:

 “Ethics and morality” are made up. 

 

[FourFans]

3 hours ago, DSG said:

“Ethics and morality” are made up. 

3 hours ago, DSG said:

Abroad, America has little moral leg to stand on, to put it mildly.

Please feel free to explain how, if Morality is made up, America has no moral leg to stand on.  If America makes up it's own morality, how does any sort of international opinion matter?  Your logical and (made up) Reason are kinda breaking down.  Kinda sad, because I'm beginning to think that you and I share a lot of views in common.

Edited January 20 by FourFans

[DSG]

1 hour ago, FourFans said:

Please feel free to explain how, if Morality is made up, America has no moral leg to stand on.  If America makes up its own morality, how does any sort of international opinion matter?  Your logical and (made up) Reason are kinda breaking down.  Kinda sad, because I'm beginning to think that you and I share a lot of views in common.

America doesn’t live up to its own values, made up or not.  Which is fine — liberal pieties are dumb.   I just have an allergy to self righteous hypocrisy, something which seems to be the stock and trade of our betters.