Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[hockeydork]

9 minutes ago, fire4effect said:

Pawnman, ClearedHot all others, I admit I sit here with my more than a couple drink(s) wondering how the hell it got to this point. Do we allow Putin to use nuclear blackmail to keep us on the sidelines ad infinitum and if he gets away with it here where does he stop? I HATE to think we as NATO in general and we as a country in particular have no choice now but to take him the fight directly. God help us one and all. 

It sets a dangerous precedent for sure. Got nukes? Do whatever you want, nobody can touch you.

Crushing the Russians economically needs to be priority number 1 until their people wake the up, however long it takes. 

[BashiChuni]

Expanding NATO to Russia’s doorstep needs to stop. We cause our own worst problems. 
 

if anything their poor military performance demonstrates how they are NOT a threat to Europe 

Edited March 4, 2022 by BashiChuni

[waveshaper]

1 hour ago, Sua Sponte said:

Great…

https://apnews.com/article/cbd6eed3e1b8f4946f5f490afd06b4be

I would recommend that the UN/NATO/EU/etc start broadcasting/posting maps - updated daily - showing the potential downwind hazard areas if this Nuke Power Plant or other Ukrainian Nuke Power Plants go into the wartime meltdown mode: The maps will probably look something like this = 

[kaputt]

So is intentionally causing a melt down at a nuclear power plant the same as using a tactical nuke? 
 

[Lecarpetron Dukemarriot]

5 minutes ago, kaputt said:

So is intentionally causing a melt down at a nuclear power plant the same as using a tactical nuke? 
 

Or worse.

[Prozac]

13 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

Expanding NATO to Russia’s doorstep needs to stop. We cause our own worst problems. 
 

if anything their poor military performance demonstrates how they are NOT a threat to Europe 

Well they’re sure as hell a threat to Ukraine. The Poles, Latvians, Lithuanians, and all of the other former Soviet/now NATO countries absolutely see the value in NATO. Ask yourself this: Do you think Putin would be less emboldened to move in on former Warsaw Pact nations if they hadn’t joined NATO? Would he allow them to exist peacefully on his border with their free press and their buzzing economies and their Western ideals? I’ll answer that for you: Fuck no. There would be Russian puppet governments in all of those countries and the ones that resisted would be given the treatment Ukraine is getting right now. Ukraine’s biggest regret right now is probably that they didn’t move to join NATO sooner. Why didn’t they? Well it took them a while to shake off the pro Putin puppet government that Moscow tried to force on them a’la my argument above. The sad thing is that this is still probably going to end poorly for Ukraine. And then Moldova and Georgia will come right after. You are SO far off base in your assessment. NATO protection for countries that wish to be democratic and free has never been more important. 

[kaputt]

It’s also such a fucking cop out to say “this is our fault for not listing to Putin”. No, this is 100% the fault of the mad man in Russia who is possibly the most evil world leader since Hitler, who decided he would rather completely waste a neighboring country for his own satisfaction and ego than face the fact that his autocratic style of leadership is a failing ideology. 
 

The Ukrainian people chose to move towards the west. We didn’t force that on them, they chose it for themselves. To have your entire country destroyed simply because it’s political views don’t align with its neighboring nation is so abhorrent, it’s almost indescribable. 
 

Fuck Russia and fuck Putin. 

[BashiChuni]

Not a cop out. It’s geopolitical politics. We thought he was bluffing and he called us on it. Just cause you don’t like it doesn’t mean it’s not reality. 

[ecugringo]

40 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

Expanding NATO to Russia’s doorstep needs to stop. We cause our own worst problems. 
 

if anything their poor military performance demonstrates how they are NOT a threat to Europe 

Nobody put a gun to their head and made them join. They made that decision as a free nation.

I understand Putin being WTF? But throwing a tantrum isn’t the right way. Maybe realize you’re the dick in the room and figure out how to benefit the most from the game.  

 

[BashiChuni]

Just now, ecugringo said:

Nobody put a gun to their head and made them join. They made that decision as a free nation.

I understand Putin being WTF? But throwing a tantrum isn’t the right way. Maybe realize you’re the dick in the room and figure out how to benefit the most from the game.  

 

I agree from a western perspective you’re correct. Putin doesn’t think like the west. Some famous person once said know your enemy or something like that. 

[FLEA]

1 minute ago, ecugringo said:

Nobody put a gun to their head and made them join. They made that decision as a free nation.

I understand Putin being WTF? But throwing a tantrum isn’t the right way. Maybe realize you’re the dick in the room and figure out how to benefit the most from the game.  

 

Noone forced them to join but every single NATO nation had to agree and allow it, and NATO is very selective. Russia applied for NATO and was told no. 

Again I think there is momentum to derationalize man who is acting very rationally and by doing that you risk him being able to outmaneuver us in thought. This isn't a tantrum. Putin wants something. What is it? 

[hockeydork]

1 minute ago, BashiChuni said:

Not a cop out. It’s geopolitical politics. We thought he was bluffing and he called us on it. Just cause you don’t like it doesn’t mean it’s not reality. 

Actually all he's really done is ensure the west arms itself to the teeth and does its best to crash the Russian economy. He is actually going to help the West, but kill a bunch of innocent people in the process. Just like a true dictator, like every, single one that has come before him, blinded by his own arrogance.

[Prozac]

2 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

I don't know about you folks but I am sick to my stomach watching this unfold.  I am older than most of you and I remember the cold war, there was always an uneasy feeling in the background as we looked across the wall at the USSR.  I remember the joy and celebration when the wall came down, the hope, watching freedom on the faces of many formerly oppressed people.  There is no reset button, our relationship with Russia will obviously be very dark for years to come, in my lifetime things will never be the same.  I was watching CNN a little while ago and the story and picture of the Ukrainian Father crying over his dead son...I can't even process it thinking of my own son.  Like many of you I flew a lot of combat missions and saw a lot of horrible things, but this is fucked up and it is only going to get worse.  How will we be remembered by history?  As we sit by and let potentially millions be slaughtered.  I know there is no easy answer and we have peeled this onion every way possible but it is a hopeless feeling to watch this brave people getting mowed down.

Turns out that the post-cold war thaw was too good to be true and it was always an uneasy peace. We probably missed some opportunities to engage with Russia in the 90s but as soon as Putin came to power the jig was up. Unfortunately his ascent conveniently (for him) coincided with our distractions in the Middle East and Afghanistan. We couldn’t have picked a worse time to take our eye off the great power geopolitical ball and now we have a real bad actor to deal with in Russia and, depending on our response to this crisis, potentially China. It’s time to buck up and face the new adversaries/same as the old adversaries in the only terms they’ve ever understood. The good news is the free world is taking notice and moving in the right direction. The question is: Are we willing to fully commit? It is an absolute tragedy and travesty that Ukrainians are paying for our distraction with their lives and maybe their country. We need to take the 30 thousand foot view though & understand that if we have that commitment, we can achieve our goals without a direct confrontation that is likely to go nuclear. The leaders who won the Cold War understood that concept. Time to settle back into those old rhythms. 

[Smokin]

5 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

Not a cop out. It’s geopolitical politics. We thought he was bluffing and he called us on it. Just cause you don’t like it doesn’t mean it’s not reality. 

The fact that he warned the west doesn't make it the west's fault that he invaded a sovereign country without even a hint of a pretext.  Your argument is basically the same as "she wore a mini-skirt, so she was asking to get raped".  Not ok.

[Sua Sponte]

44 minutes ago, kaputt said:

So is intentionally causing a melt down at a nuclear power plant the same as using a tactical nuke? 
 

3.6 Roentgen. Not great…not terrible.

[ecugringo]

1 minute ago, BashiChuni said:

I agree from a western perspective you’re correct. Putin doesn’t think like the west. Some famous person once said know your enemy or something like that. 

The question will be for the west:  do u let a free nation become destroyed and annihilated in your back yard? There is interest.  Natural gas flows through Ukraine.  Kazakhstan has a massive oil play.  It needs to go through Ukraine or the Black Sea to reach market.  We can’t ship enough lng for demand in Europe. If we had balls we’d stop Russian crude from market and increase production ourselves but Biden is too focused on trying to look green.

Putin is all in.  Theres no going back now.  Conquer Ukraine just to be economically isolated isnt a win.  
 

 

[Prozac]

6 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

I agree from a western perspective you’re correct. Putin doesn’t think like the west. Some famous person once said know your enemy or something like that. 

Knowing your enemy doesn’t mean giving them a pass to do whatever they want. Don’t tell me that’s not what you were advocating when you said NATO expansion should stop because that’s EXACTLY what Putin wants. You want to know your enemy to avoid a fight when possible, but also because once in a while you might have no choice but to fight them. 

[FLEA]

1 minute ago, Prozac said:

Knowing your enemy doesn’t mean giving them a pass to do whatever they want. Don’t tell me that’s not what you were advocating when you said NATO expansion should stop because that’s EXACTLY what Putin wants. You want to know your enemy to avoid a fight when possible, but also because once in a while you might have no choice but to fight them. 

So why should NATO expansion go forward? 

Putin is just supposed to be happy that an alliance created to deliberately overthrow his country is allowed to continue getting stronger while he has to continue to sign arms treaties and contain his foreign policy sphere? 

[goingkinetic]

NATO is a defensive organization. Exactly what wars has NATO initiated?

[ecugringo]

10 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Noone forced them to join but every single NATO nation had to agree and allow it, and NATO is very selective. Russia applied for NATO and was told no. 

Again I think there is momentum to derationalize man who is acting very rationally and by doing that you risk him being able to outmaneuver us in thought. This isn't a tantrum. Putin wants something. What is it? 

Didn’t know Russia applied.

 

agree. I don’t think anyone knows what his end game is. He’s not dumb.  He’s out maneuvered our presidents.  I can’t envision  Putin not seeing the sanctions and thinking we’ll I’ll take Ukraine and a month later they’ll be more focused on the kardashisns by then.

he’s been on their border since November.  This is just a piece of the grander scheme.

[FLEA]

1 minute ago, goingkinetic said:

NATO is a defensive organization. Exactly what wars has NATO initiated?

But that's not how Putin, or anyone in Russian governance sees it. And they continue to see NATO aggressively because NATO refuses to accept olive branches. 

It doesn't matter that you know NATO is a defensive organization. Russia doesn't and they aren't privy to the insider baseball that would make them think that way. 

[FLEA]

Just now, FLEA said:

But that's not how Putin, or anyone in Russian governance sees it. And they continue to see NATO aggressively because NATO refuses to accept olive branches. 

It doesn't matter that you know NATO is a defensive organization. Russia doesn't and they aren't privy to the insider baseball that would make them think that way. 

To give some more context, Ukraine's ascension would have allowed the US to proposition a force on the Russian border very similar to the force Russia just prepositioned on the Ukraine border. That's what Russia was terrified of. 

[goingkinetic]

Just now, FLEA said:

But that's not how Putin, or anyone in Russian governance sees it. And they continue to see NATO aggressively because NATO refuses to accept olive branches. 

It doesn't matter that you know NATO is a defensive organization. Russia doesn't and they aren't privy to the insider baseball that would make them think that way. 

Russia could have stayed a democracy, they could have joined the EU, they could have joined the Euro. Instead they chose to feel sorry for themselves like Germany in World War II. Would you apologize for Japan saying we forced them into war by limiting access to resources?

[FLEA]

Just now, goingkinetic said:

Russia could have stayed a democracy, they could have joined the EU, they could have joined the Euro. Instead they chose to feel sorry for themselves like Germany in World War II. Would you apologize for Japan saying we forced them into war by limiting access to resources?

Bro they tried all of that. The west didn't trust them and kindly removed Russia's hand from their shoulder. 

The west wasn't ready to trust Russia post WW2, and Russia became skeptical of why the west continued to hide cooperation if they were really intent on peace. 

[FLEA]

Just now, FLEA said:

Bro they tried all of that. The west didn't trust them and kindly removed Russia's hand from their shoulder. 

The west wasn't ready to trust Russia post WW2, and Russia became skeptical of why the west continued to hide cooperation if they were really intent on peace. 

I do stand slightly corrected. I don't think Russia has ever applied for the EU (NATO yes) 

Why would Russia apply for the EU though? It would be detrimental to their sovereignty and their economy.