Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, nsplayr said:

Talking points

Just so we understand you correctly, are you making the argument that the US economy is strong/in good shape right now?  

[Prozac]

20 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

Just so we understand you correctly, are you making the argument that the US economy is strong/in good shape right now?  

Strong-er than pretty much everybody else. It’s all relative my man. What country would you rather live in at the moment? 

[nsplayr]

22 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

Just so we understand you correctly, are you making the argument that the US economy is strong/in good shape right now?  

Especially compared to anyone else. Like Einstein said, it’s all relative. 

[HeloDude]

11 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Strong-er than pretty much everybody else. It’s all relative my man. What country would you rather live in at the moment? 

I don’t care about other countries, I care about our own.  So if you think this economy is good/strong compared to recent previous years, then we’ll just have to disagree on that one. 

[Danger41]

4 hours ago, pawnman said:

So your assertion is that if we just let Russia take over their neighbors... Missouri would have water? 

Missouri has water now but Mississippi is having problems. 
 

I’m saying Russia’s other neighbors aka our NATO allies, could not rely on us to take care of their defense if they were really worried about it. Hell, how many even meet the 2% GDP requirement? Therefore, they pay up and stop being weak dick cucks and we can put some money towards our own crumbling stuff. But that’s a way bigger conversation than I want to have/outside the scope here.
 

I know you know that and you’re being obtuse. But then again you don’t know the difference in postal codes between Mississippi and Missouri so who knows.

[HeloDude]

11 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

Especially compared to anyone else. Like Einstein said, it’s all relative. 

Well, 83% of Americans disagree with you, but you keep thinking that lol.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/398963/economic-confidence-improving-weak.aspx

[Biff_T]

3 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Nonsense. What we are spending in Ukraine is budget dust compared to the domestic expenses that have put us well beyond the point of recovery.

The money sent to Ukraine probably has the highest rate of achieving its intended purpose of all government spending in the last 30 years.

 

I like to take a little hit of that budget dust to help the homeless. Nobody is really doing anything except moving them to other places.  I imagine good majority of the nation's homeless eventually end up in So Cal (good weather for the homeless).  Skid Row (not the band) is one example of many places that should not exist in our society. Dem/Reps aren't really doing anything to help.  It's mostly lip service and local volunteers doing what little they can.

Homeless American children as well.   

There is so much wrong in our country right now that it makes me question what pronoun to call myself?

 

I forgot this was the Russian thread.

Putin will eventually die.   The sad thing is what happens when the soldiers come home and realize that they were duped.  Going into hell and killing people for a lie. Now they come home to a broken country.  Putin will eventually die. Lyrics maybe?

Putin should be scared.  

 

 

[BFM this]

59 minutes ago, Biff_T said:

I like to take a little hit of that budget dust to help the homeless. Nobody is really doing anything except moving them to other places.  I imagine good majority of the nation's homeless eventually end up in So Cal (good weather for the homeless).  Skid Row (not the band) is one example of many places that should not exist in our society. Dem/Reps aren't really doing anything to help.  It's mostly lip service and local volunteers doing what little they can.

Homeless American children as well.   

The Homeless Industrial Complex would like a hit of that budget dust, for sure.

Oh, wait, did you mean you wanted to curb homelessness?  Sorry, way to lucrative a business for anything like that...

https://newrepublic.com/article/166383/los-angeles-echo-park-homeless-industrial-complex

Back to the Shenanigans!

 

[Prozac]

4 hours ago, Danger41 said:

NATO allies, could not rely on us to take care of their defense if they were really worried about it. Hell, how many even meet the 2% GDP requirement?

Have you been following international geopolitics at all lately? This is exactly what is happening. Countries like Germany are finally stepping it up after years of neglecting defense. 

[Danger41]

2 hours ago, Prozac said:

Have you been following international geopolitics at all lately? This is exactly what is happening. Countries like Germany are finally stepping it up after years of neglecting defense. 

I’ll believe it when I see it and not some bullshit “pledge” like Sweden and Finland, our newest allies. 
 

Here’s the most recent expenditures that are available from NATO. Lots of red from countries that share a border with the Russians but luckily me and the rest of my US mil buddies can come bail them out. 

 

 

[brwwg&b]

19 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

Lots of red from countries that share a border with the Russians

1/5 NATO countries that border Russia are in the red - Norway only. 
 

Absolutely agree that the remainder should show up with the $$ / % GDP to share shouldering the weight of deterrence and defense. Just saying your argument isn’t accurate. I do also agree that if/when Finland joins, they’ll need to bump up from their historic ~1.5% GDP on defense. 

[Danger41]

3 minutes ago, brwwg&b said:

1/5 NATO countries that border Russia are in the red - Norway only. 
 

Absolutely agree that the remainder should show up with the $$ / % GDP to share shouldering the weight of deterrence and defense. Just saying your argument isn’t accurate. I do also agree that if/when Finland joins, they’ll need to bump up from their historic ~1.5% GDP on defense. 

Totally valid. I was focusing on Scandinavia and the members, current/future. Good point.

[nsplayr]

51 minutes ago, brwwg&b said:

1/5 NATO countries that border Russia are in the red - Norway only. 
 

Absolutely agree that the remainder should show up with the $$ / % GDP to share shouldering the weight of deterrence and defense. Just saying your argument isn’t accurate. I do also agree that if/when Finland joins, they’ll need to bump up from their historic ~1.5% GDP on defense. 

Agreed on all, although Finland is historically very efficient with their relatively small amount of military power 🇫🇮


 

Sweden is also currently below the 2% target, but their really good diesel submarines are a huge asymmetric advantage for them that will be a nice boost to NATO’s sea power. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by nsplayr

[pawnman]

On 9/3/2022 at 1:44 PM, Biff_T said:

I like to take a little hit of that budget dust to help the homeless. Nobody is really doing anything except moving them to other places.  I imagine good majority of the nation's homeless eventually end up in So Cal (good weather for the homeless).  Skid Row (not the band) is one example of many places that should not exist in our society. Dem/Reps aren't really doing anything to help.  It's mostly lip service and local volunteers doing what little they can.

Homeless American children as well.   

There is so much wrong in our country right now that it makes me question what pronoun to call myself?

 

I forgot this was the Russian thread.

Putin will eventually die.   The sad thing is what happens when the soldiers come home and realize that they were duped.  Going into hell and killing people for a lie. Now they come home to a broken country.  Putin will eventually die. Lyrics maybe?

Putin should be scared.  

 

 

So... why weren't we helping them prior to the invasion of Ukraine? 

It's just such a specious argument that this money would be spent on your number 1 issue if only it weren't diverted to something you disagree with. 

[Biff_T]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

So... why weren't we helping them prior to the invasion of Ukraine? 

It's just such a specious argument that this money would be spent on your number 1 issue if only it weren't diverted to something you disagree with. 

First off.  I'm glad we're spending money in the Ukraine.  

To answer your first question.  Because nobody cares.

What other brain busters do you have for me?

Edit:  I reread my post and I can see how it's confusing to you Pawnman.   I'm not implying that we should take money from Ukraine and use it to help the homeless.  I was trying to show how the government doesn't really care about domestic issues like homelessness.  Because if they did, it would only take a little "budget dust" to help them.   If we have money for all of the foreign aid we provide to the rest of the world. And if what we are spending in Ukraine is merely budget dust, then surely we could have helped solve some problems in our own country with a little dust as well.  

I should have clarified that in my previous post.  

I don't mind spending money to help get rid of Putin.  Not one bit.  

Edited September 4, 2022 by Biff_T

[FLEA]

2 hours ago, pawnman said:

So... why weren't we helping them prior to the invasion of Ukraine? 

It's just such a specious argument that this money would be spent on your number 1 issue if only it weren't diverted to something you disagree with. 

Probably because the military industrial lobbyist we're still feasting on GWOT until a year ago. 

[arg]

On 9/3/2022 at 6:08 PM, Danger41 said:

I’ll believe it when I see it and not some bullshit “pledge” like Sweden and Finland, our newest allies. 
 

Here’s the most recent expenditures that are available from NATO. Lots of red from countries that share a border with the Russians but luckily me and the rest of my US mil buddies can come bail them out. 

 

 

Wasn’t Trump trying to get them to pay more?

[Clark Griswold]

1945 had a pretty good summation of our strategy in Ukraine and pretty much everywhere else too:

Civilian leadership:  Just do something, anything, I don't know just something and right now.

Military:  Ok

What Is America's Goal for the Ukraine War? Answer: We Don't Have One - 19FortyFive

The cost to the United States for all these failures has been profound – and now we’re creating a new mission without a clear objective and no identifiable end state.

Where things are right now:

Not to be dismissive of the Ukrainians rightful cause against aggression but our interests are involved too as we are their patron keeping them from being defeated, but it's time for this to end.

Bleeding Russia to the last Ukranian is not a good idea in the long run and Europe hence a huge portion of the world's economy is getting unstable, food prices, energy prices and inflation, etc... besides I'm not convinced we are weakening Russia to the extent we think we are.

No Russian presence west of the Dnieper River and cede the Donbas to the Russians.  End hostilities with an armistice and an enduring US military mission in Ukraine.  No formal peace, no further kinetic actions, another Korea.  Best we can do.

 

[Prozac]

3 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Best we can do.

 

I dunno. Seems like the Ukrainian counter-offensive is starting off on the right foot & the Russians may just be ham-fisted enough and so strapped for ammunition, equipment, and personnel that they won’t be able to defend any of what they’ve gained. Let’s keep supplying Ukraine for as long as they need to re-establish their borders. The one concession might have to be Sevastopol, which the Russians likely will defend at all costs. Get the Turks and/or Israelis into Crimea as non-aligned peacekeepers & you might have a workable peace. 

[Lord Ratner]

On 9/3/2022 at 12:44 PM, Biff_T said:

I like to take a little hit of that budget dust to help the homeless. Nobody is really doing anything except moving them to other places.  I imagine good majority of the nation's homeless eventually end up in So Cal (good weather for the homeless).  Skid Row (not the band) is one example of many places that should not exist in our society. Dem/Reps aren't really doing anything to help.  It's mostly lip service and local volunteers doing what little they can.

That's because it's not a homeless problem, it's a drug problem. There is a ton of money being spent on it, but it will do nothing because no one wants to admit that we need forcibly imprison the homeless and subject them to compulsory rehab, and reestablish the insane asylums for those who are too far gone to treat.

 

We can work on that problem and support Ukraine at the same time.

 

[Biff_T]

41 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

That's because it's not a homeless problem, it's a drug problem. There is a ton of money being spent on it, but it will do nothing because no one wants to admit that we need forcibly imprison the homeless and subject them to compulsory rehab, and reestablish the insane asylums for those who are too far gone to treat.

 

We can work on that problem and support Ukraine at the same time.

 

I agree with everything you just said!

[Majestik Møøse]

8 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

1945 had a pretty good summation of our strategy in Ukraine and pretty much everywhere else too:

Civilian leadership:  Just do something, anything, I don't know just something and right now.

Military:  Ok

What Is America's Goal for the Ukraine War? Answer: We Don't Have One - 19FortyFive

The cost to the United States for all these failures has been profound – and now we’re creating a new mission without a clear objective and no identifiable end state.

Where things are right now:

Not to be dismissive of the Ukrainians rightful cause against aggression but our interests are involved too as we are their patron keeping them from being defeated, but it's time for this to end.

Bleeding Russia to the last Ukranian is not a good idea in the long run and Europe hence a huge portion of the world's economy is getting unstable, food prices, energy prices and inflation, etc... besides I'm not convinced we are weakening Russia to the extent we think we are.

No Russian presence west of the Dnieper River and cede the Donbas to the Russians.  End hostilities with an armistice and an enduring US military mission in Ukraine.  No formal peace, no further kinetic actions, another Korea.  Best we can do.

 

Russia goes home? How’s that?

[Clark Griswold]

I dunno. Seems like the Ukrainian counter-offensive is starting off on the right foot & the Russians may just be ham-fisted enough and so strapped for ammunition, equipment, and personnel that they won’t be able to defend any of what they’ve gained. Let’s keep supplying Ukraine for as long as they need to re-establish their borders. The one concession might have to be Sevastopol, which the Russians likely will defend at all costs. Get the Turks and/or Israelis into Crimea as non-aligned peacekeepers & you might have a workable peace. 

Giving them some time to take back some territory / pressure the Russians is fine but there will come a point where I fear if the Russians really start to screw it up the temptation to go low yield tactical nuke becomes irresistible, the world gets really scary then.
If they lose conventionally they lose deterrence against other foes they face, if the nuke first as they start to lose they end the conflict and they establish fear of nuclear reprisal with a recent example that assures them no one will f with them even though they lost a conventional conflict, yeah they’re a super pariah now but they have so much in natural resources it won’t last long term (isolation via extreme sanctions).
If Russia gets territorial concessions and a land bridge to Crimea, then the West can beat that for the new Ukraine, basically a Marshall Plan plus immediate entry into the EU and NATO with US boots on the ground day 1 after conflict cessation


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[Clark Griswold]

Russia goes home? How’s that?

They won’t go home ever, don’t think I said that or didn’t mean to imply it, I think they’ll go tactically nuclear before they get kicked out of Ukraine
I think recognition that they will keep about the amount of territory they have now is the reality the world should accept and move to a feasible plan to end the war, bring new Ukraine into the Western fold and subvert Putin with a free, reformed (long term project like South Korea) Ukraine


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[uhhello]

40 minutes ago, Clark Griswold said:

They won’t go home ever, don’t think I said that or didn’t mean to imply it, I think they’ll go tactically nuclear before they get kicked out of Ukraine
I think recognition that they will keep about the amount of territory they have now is the reality the world should accept and move to a feasible plan to end the war, bring new Ukraine into the Western fold and subvert Putin with a free, reformed (long term project like South Korea) Ukraine


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I hate it but it's gotta end something like that.