TSP Annual additions limit

[QAZqaz]

So I’ve tried TSP customer service, DFAS and myPers and nobody can explain to me how to allocate past the $20,500 for 2022. I don’t even know how many months I need to be overseas to max it, or if it’s prorated depending on how many months you spend overseas in a calendar year. Has anyone done this and if so how much can I contribute and how many months do I need to be overseas? What happens if I exceed the limits? Once I max the Roth TSP do I need to then reallocate into the traditional TSP or if I go a penny over the 20,500 allotment does it lock it out the traditional TSP? after hours on the phone I have no answers. 

[jazzdude]

It's hard to max out to the 61k limit, since your TSP contributions are limited to your pay, unless you have good timing with a deployment and/or a bonus.

I was able to exceed the normal limit my last deployment (2019), though you need the tax free to be showing on your LES, as that seems to be the trigger that allows the extra traditional tsp contributions above the normal limit, and when the tax free goes away it stops your ability to add anything past the normal limit, even if you haven't hit the annual addition limit.

I also think that if you maxed out at the normal contribution limit, it made it so you couldn't contribute above the limit on deployment (like you noted), though I can't find that on the tsp website anymore. I set up my contributions to be under the limit when I deployed with a two month buffer to get the tax free processed.

[ViperMan]

4 hours ago, QAZqaz said:

So I’ve tried TSP customer service, DFAS and myPers and nobody can explain to me how to allocate past the $20,500 for 2022. I don’t even know how many months I need to be overseas to max it, or if it’s prorated depending on how many months you spend overseas in a calendar year. Has anyone done this and if so how much can I contribute and how many months do I need to be overseas? What happens if I exceed the limits? Once I max the Roth TSP do I need to then reallocate into the traditional TSP or if I go a penny over the 20,500 allotment does it lock it out the traditional TSP? after hours on the phone I have no answers. 

Dude, not trying to intentionally be snarky, but these questions are easily, and I mean easily, answered with a little bit of googling. Just sayin there's probably a more direct way to get the information you seek, because it's pretty basic.

[QAZqaz]

On 11/30/2021 at 1:43 AM, jazzdude said:

It's hard to max out to the 61k limit, since your TSP contributions are limited to your pay, unless you have good timing with a deployment and/or a bonus.

I was able to exceed the normal limit my last deployment (2019), though you need the tax free to be showing on your LES, as that seems to be the trigger that allows the extra traditional tsp contributions above the normal limit, and when the tax free goes away it stops your ability to add anything past the normal limit, even if you haven't hit the annual addition limit.

I also think that if you maxed out at the normal contribution limit, it made it so you couldn't contribute above the limit on deployment (like you noted), though I can't find that on the tsp website anymore. I set up my contributions to be under the limit when I deployed with a two month buffer to get the tax free processed.

Thanks,

I think I have a shot at maxing it out. Good to know the LES tax free triggers it. Do you have to contribute to the Roth TSP up to $20.5k first or can you contribute to traditional initially? I will have a month where I will not be in a CZTE at the end of year and figured it might be better to contribute to Traditional TSP first, since apparently I can always contribute to the Roth up to $20.5k.

By normal contribution limit do you mean the initial $20.5k? Does that mean if I contribute $20.4k into a Roth that i am good to contribute $40k to the traditional, and that if I mess up and contribute $20.6k to the roth that it prevents me from contributing anything to the traditional? I know if you go over the money gets kicked back for the Roth, I just dont know if I am locked out of further contributions to traditional. 

 

Viperman: I can find random stuff on what the contribution limits are WRT the amount for normal and additional contributions, but the execution of it is what I wanna get right that can't seem to be answered by anyone. Also, for example, lets say I contribute 50% of my base pay for the first 4 months of the year in Roth and I am stateside, and max out the $20.5k. If I fly into a CZTE in June, does that now mean that I can contribute an additional 50% of my base pay into the Traditional TSP for that month? 

[ViperMan]

8 hours ago, QAZqaz said:

Viperman: I can find random stuff on what the contribution limits are WRT the amount for normal and additional contributions, but the execution of it is what I wanna get right that can't seem to be answered by anyone. Also, for example, lets say I contribute 50% of my base pay for the first 4 months of the year in Roth and I am stateside, and max out the $20.5k. If I fly into a CZTE in June, does that now mean that I can contribute an additional 50% of my base pay into the Traditional TSP for that month? 

I apologize, because I can't get into deep specifics regarding what happens in your situation. My knowledge is wide, but generally shallow.

https://militarybenefits.info/thrift-savings-plan-contribution-limits/

"The Elective deferral limit applies to the combined total of traditional and Roth contributions. For members of the uniformed services, it includes all traditional and Roth contributions from taxable basic pay, incentive pay, special pay and bonus pay but does not apply to traditional contributions made from tax-exempt pay earned in a combat zone."

"Service members cannot contribute $20,500 to each program. The limit indicates the amount you can contribute to one or both."

There is also this thing called the "annual" limit (i.e. where you see $61,000 referenced). This refers to all dollars added to your account - think of this as the contribution from your employer - which for us is bupkis.

//Break//

Put as much faith in this as how much you paid for it: I think the TSP is supposed to *fix* any errors you make regarding contributions. If you add too much, they just return the money to you. So if your goal is to max perform it, just pull as hard as you can and let HAL figure it out. Note: I have not ops-tested this game plan.

https://www.tsp.gov/making-contributions/contribution-limits/

Elective deferral limit: "This limit applies to the combined total of traditional and Roth contributions. For uniformed services members, this does not apply to traditional contributions from combat-zone pay."

To me, that sounds like you should contribute 100% of combat-zone pay to your traditional TSP, but only *if* you're going to reach the $19,500 hard-stop limit for 2021. If you can't - even with 100% of the rest of your pay going to TSP this year - I would just contribute all of it to the Roth TSP. No sense in paying taxes on tax-free income.

Edited December 10, 2021 by ViperMan

[CaptainMorgan]

I apologize, because I can't get into deep specifics regarding what happens in your situation. My knowledge is wide, but generally shallow.
https://militarybenefits.info/thrift-savings-plan-contribution-limits/
"The Elective deferral limit applies to the combined total of traditional and Roth contributions. For members of the uniformed services, it includes all traditional and Roth contributions from taxable basic pay, incentive pay, special pay and bonus pay but does not apply to traditional contributions made from tax-exempt pay earned in a combat zone."
"Service members cannot contribute $20,500 to each program. The limit indicates the amount you can contribute to one or both."
There is also this thing called the "annual" limit (i.e. where you see $61,000 referenced). This refers to all dollars added to your account - think of this as the contribution from your employer - which for us is bupkis.
//Break//
Put as much faith in this as how much you paid for it: I think the TSP is supposed to *fix* any errors you make regarding contributions. If you add too much, they just return the money to you. So if your goal is to max perform it, just pull as hard as you can and let HAL figure it out. Note: I have not ops-tested this game plan.
https://www.tsp.gov/making-contributions/contribution-limits/
Elective deferral limit: "This limit applies to the combined total of traditional and Roth contributions. For uniformed services members, this does not apply to traditional contributions from combat-zone pay."
To me, that sounds like you should contribute 100% of combat-zone pay to your traditional TSP, but only *if* you're going to reach the $19,500 hard-stop limit for 2021. If you can't - even with 100% of the rest of your pay going to TSP this year - I would just contribute all of it to the Roth TSP. No sense in paying taxes on tax-free income.

I would recommend against putting any tax-free money into your traditional. You’ll pay income taxes when you eventually withdraw it. On the other hand, if you just put it in a normal brokerage account and sit on it you’ll be looking at paying long-term capital gains. 0% up to 40.4k single, 80.8k married (for this year, you can expect that number to keep rising by the time you’re taking out of your account).


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[jazzdude]

I would recommend against putting any tax-free money into your traditional. You’ll pay income taxes when you eventually withdraw it.

That's not correct-any tax free money put in the traditional stays tax free when you withdraw it, though you do pay tax on any interest accrued

[CaptainMorgan]

That's not correct-any tax free money put in the traditional stays tax free when you withdraw it, though you do pay tax on any interest accrued

When we’re talking about tax on interest accrued over the course of 20-40 years in a retirement account over, that’s pretty significant. Compare that to not paying any taxes on any of it as long as you don’t exceed the 0% bracket for long-term capital gains. Also, you have more choice in how you invest it, and can access the money earlier without any penalties. I think traditional TSP is only a good idea if you’re using it to reduce your tax burden in the now, which is probably not necessary if you’re getting 6-9 months of tax free.

I think the main advantage is that is forces you to actually save that money for retirement, as early withdrawals incur huge penalties, but for anyone financially disciplined, that shouldn’t be an issue.

Please throw spears at what I’m saying if I’m missing something.


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[jazzdude]

When we’re talking about tax on interest accrued over the course of 20-40 years in a retirement account over, that’s pretty significant. Compare that to not paying any taxes on any of it as long as you don’t exceed the 0% bracket for long-term capital gains. Also, you have more choice in how you invest it, and can access the money earlier without any penalties. I think traditional TSP is only a good idea if you’re using it to reduce your tax burden in the now, which is probably not necessary if you’re getting 6-9 months of tax free.

I think the main advantage is that is forces you to actually save that money for retirement, as early withdrawals incur huge penalties, but for anyone financially disciplined, that shouldn’t be an issue.

Please throw spears at what I’m saying if I’m missing something.

Agree with everything you've said, but to the OP's question, you're limited to $20.5k in the Roth TSP. If you're putting in anything past the $20.5k (Roth+traditional) towards the $61k limit it has to go in traditional.

To max perform the contributions (tax wise), you'd want to max out your Roth contribution prior to deploying, then have the combat pay go into the traditional TSP.

[SocialD]

This is as good of place as any.  Watch your TSP contribution limits because the TSP coders screwed up and it doesn't know to stop your contributions at $19,500 (2021).  So it just continues to deduct money for your TSP.  TSP is smart enough to only put in $19,500 and sends the rest back to DFAS.  DFAS then has to cut you a check and you'll get it back in another pay stub.  Problem is, this issue started back in August and the department that handles the refunds is, as the DFAS told me, "buried in a mountain of paperwork."  He said it's a manual process, so don't expect that check anytime soon...  Thanks bro, appreciate it!  Yet another battle I spend my previous few days at work fighting, rather than doing my job.  Oh well, they want to provide a shitty product, this is what they get.

 

 

[nsplayr]

Oh god damn it, just happened to me with my Dec 15th LES. Thanks for nothing finance. They also didn't pay me my correct flight pay in Nov and owe me $175 but (sic) "We have to wait 90 days to open a CMS case." Bet if I owed them it'd get solved lickety-split!

Hey man, where's my money! You got money for fake mustaches DFAS...where's my money!

[CaptainMorgan]

Oh god damn it, just happened to me with my Dec 15th LES. Thanks for nothing finance. They also didn't pay me my correct flight pay in Nov and owe me $175 but (sic) "We have to wait 90 days to open a CMS case." Bet if I owed them it'd get solved lickety-split!

Hey man, where's my money! You got money for fake mustaches DFAS...where's my money!

I think they need a Mission Support Group creed so they have a constant reminder they’re here to support. This year I’ve had issues getting deployment entitlements paid, one finance troop went into a voucher and tried to short me on per diem, and they didn’t properly credit me for tax-exempt leave. I’m not holding my breath on that getting fixed before they send out W-2s.


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[SurelySerious]

I think they need a Mission Suppression Group creed so they have a constant reminder they’re here to suppress.


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Fify, and they’re already on top of it sts

Avoid, suppress, kill the voucher

[QAZqaz]

On 12/10/2021 at 4:56 AM, ViperMan said:

I apologize, because I can't get into deep specifics regarding what happens in your situation. My knowledge is wide, but generally shallow.

https://militarybenefits.info/thrift-savings-plan-contribution-limits/

"The Elective deferral limit applies to the combined total of traditional and Roth contributions. For members of the uniformed services, it includes all traditional and Roth contributions from taxable basic pay, incentive pay, special pay and bonus pay but does not apply to traditional contributions made from tax-exempt pay earned in a combat zone."

"Service members cannot contribute $20,500 to each program. The limit indicates the amount you can contribute to one or both."

There is also this thing called the "annual" limit (i.e. where you see $61,000 referenced). This refers to all dollars added to your account - think of this as the contribution from your employer - which for us is bupkis.

//Break//

Put as much faith in this as how much you paid for it: I think the TSP is supposed to *fix* any errors you make regarding contributions. If you add too much, they just return the money to you. So if your goal is to max perform it, just pull as hard as you can and let HAL figure it out. Note: I have not ops-tested this game plan.

https://www.tsp.gov/making-contributions/contribution-limits/

Elective deferral limit: "This limit applies to the combined total of traditional and Roth contributions. For uniformed services members, this does not apply to traditional contributions from combat-zone pay."

To me, that sounds like you should contribute 100% of combat-zone pay to your traditional TSP, but only *if* you're going to reach the $19,500 hard-stop limit for 2021. If you can't - even with 100% of the rest of your pay going to TSP this year - I would just contribute all of it to the Roth TSP. No sense in paying taxes on tax-free income.

So your last paragraph is where I disagree on the execution. For 2022, the conclusion I came to was to max out my $20,500 in my Roth TSP by putting like 55% of my base pay into it, so I can get it finished in 4 months or so. Then after that is maxed out, I will use the annual addition limit to add another $40.5k into it before the end of the year. I will be receiving tax free for every month but December next year, so I think it's possible. The execution of it is the question.

I'm thinking what others have said about DFAS/TSP/mypay whoever tracks this stuff will see that I am getting tax free on my pay stubs and I am guessing I will be able to automatically get up to the 61K annual addition limit, but I will have to press to test.

This is all to say that I didn't realize one point: Had I known how this works, every time I got a monthly "tax free" on a mission, I was allowed to contribute to the traditional TSP beyond the $20.5k I put into my Roth TSP. So had I known that, I could have been dumping even more than $20.5k into the TSP every year I've flown missions overseas. That said, sometimes it takes a while for the tax free to hit my pay check, and when you edit your TSP contributions they take effect in the following month, so I don't know how to execute on that if the timing isn't perfectly lined up. Can you contribute to the annual additional limit the month after you receive a tax free?

And yeah this process is frustrating and shitty because nobody knows anything when you call, and it looks like I will have to monitor every single monthly pay stub to figure out when to cut the monthly contribution down so I don't go over my roth limit initially, and then my annual additional limit after that. 

[QAZqaz]

On 12/10/2021 at 10:27 PM, SocialD said:

This is as good of place as any.  Watch your TSP contribution limits because the TSP coders screwed up and it doesn't know to stop your contributions at $19,500 (2021).  So it just continues to deduct money for your TSP.  TSP is smart enough to only put in $19,500 and sends the rest back to DFAS.  DFAS then has to cut you a check and you'll get it back in another pay stub.  Problem is, this issue started back in August and the department that handles the refunds is, as the DFAS told me, "buried in a mountain of paperwork."  He said it's a manual process, so don't expect that check anytime soon...  Thanks bro, appreciate it!  Yet another battle I spend my previous few days at work fighting, rather than doing my job.  Oh well, they want to provide a shitty product, this is what they get.

 

 

I wonder if the system is smart enough to start dumping money past $20.5k into the traditional TSP if I am getting tax free on my pay stubs? Like after a few months I max the $20.5 and it sees I am in a CZTE and starts putting it into my Traditional TSP up to the $61k limit. This MIGHT be something the TSP people know but so far they've been basically unhelpful and always try to pass the buck to DFAS. 

This I don't really wanna press to test though and will probably have to watch my mypay stubs every month to figure out the exact percentage for my last month in the Roth TSP to shack it just under the $20.5k limit and then set up the next month for the traditional Roth annual additional limit.

And yeah just the fact that DFAS and TSP have no idea how to answer my basic questions tells you something

[ViperMan]

2 hours ago, QAZqaz said:

So your last paragraph is where I disagree on the execution. For 2022, the conclusion I came to was to max out my $20,500 in my Roth TSP by putting like 55% of my base pay into it, so I can get it finished in 4 months or so. Then after that is maxed out, I will use the annual addition limit to add another $40.5k into it before the end of the year. I will be receiving tax free for every month but December next year, so I think it's possible. The execution of it is the question.

Yeah, max the Roth TSP, then if you can dump more money into the traditional if you want. I think we're on the same page.

I interpret this to mean that you're not allowed to exceed $19,500 in the Roth TSP under any circumstance: "The Elective deferral limit applies to the combined total of traditional and Roth contributions. For members of the uniformed services, it includes all traditional and Roth contributions from taxable basic pay, incentive pay, special pay and bonus pay but does not apply to traditional contributions made from tax-exempt pay earned in a combat zone."

Key phrase "traditional contributions." TRADITIONAL contributions...

Are you saying you can add more than the 19.5 to the roth TSP? Because if so, I haven't seen a source that backs that up.

[LJ Driver]

I’m retired so not a TSP contributor anymore, but the 401k rules are near identical. In a 401k, after the first 19.5 (20.5 in 2022), you cannot put any more into a Roth 401k. However, you can contribute to a traditional, post-tax 401k and roll that over immediately to a Roth 401k. If you do this, there is no additional tax liability because the shares haven’t appreciated yet. I do this with my airline (through Schwab) and it’s an awesome way to stack Roth money in a 401k. 
 

Guessing DFAS or TSP heads would explode if you asked about it, but rollover to Roth should be available in the TSP somehow. 

[jazzdude]

So your last paragraph is where I disagree on the execution. For 2022, the conclusion I came to was to max out my $20,500 in my Roth TSP by putting like 55% of my base pay into it, so I can get it finished in 4 months or so. Then after that is maxed out, I will use the annual addition limit to add another $40.5k into it before the end of the year. I will be receiving tax free for every month but December next year, so I think it's possible. The execution of it is the question.
I'm thinking what others have said about DFAS/TSP/mypay whoever tracks this stuff will see that I am getting tax free on my pay stubs and I am guessing I will be able to automatically get up to the 61K annual addition limit, but I will have to press to test.

This should work, and it's the way to max perform your tsp.

This is all to say that I didn't realize one point: Had I known how this works, every time I got a monthly "tax free" on a mission, I was allowed to contribute to the traditional TSP beyond the $20.5k I put into my Roth TSP. So had I known that, I could have been dumping even more than $20.5k into the TSP every year I've flown missions overseas. That said, sometimes it takes a while for the tax free to hit my pay check, and when you edit your TSP contributions they take effect in the following month, so I don't know how to execute on that if the timing isn't perfectly lined up. Can you contribute to the annual additional limit the month after you receive a tax free?
And yeah this process is frustrating and shitty because nobody knows anything when you call, and it looks like I will have to monitor every single monthly pay stub to figure out when to cut the monthly contribution down so I don't go over my roth limit initially, and then my annual additional limit after that. 

From what I understand it's all one big bucket. Basically the your limited to 20.5k for the sum of your Roth and traditional contributions. Once you hit that limit, you can only continue to contribute to your traditional tsp if you're in a combat zone that month, up to the 61k limit. That might just be a DFAS limitation, since TSP keeps tax free traditional contributions separate, so the should know that money can exceed the 20.5k limit.

The other caveat is that if you're on the BRS, the gov contributions count towards that 60.5k limit as well.

[Royal]

3 hours ago, LJ Driver said:

I’m retired so not a TSP contributor anymore, but the 401k rules are near identical. In a 401k, after the first 19.5 (20.5 in 2022), you cannot put any more into a Roth 401k. However, you can contribute to a traditional, post-tax 401k and roll that over immediately to a Roth 401k. If you do this, there is no additional tax liability because the shares haven’t appreciated yet. I do this with my airline (through Schwab) and it’s an awesome way to stack Roth money in a 401k. 
 

Guessing DFAS or TSP heads would explode if you asked about it, but rollover to Roth should be available in the TSP somehow. 

The mega back door Roth. They're trying to kill that will the BBB legislation:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiPwsb5wOn0AhXQK80KHYz8B9EQFnoECAIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.investopedia.com%2Fthreat-to-mega-backdoor-roth-conversions-5211038&usg=AOvVaw3J08yxL4EMszO3Fhn_Hqmb

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiPwsb5wOn0AhXQK80KHYz8B9EQFnoECBsQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fadvisor%2Fretirement%2Fcongress-to-end-backdoor-roth-conversions%2F&usg=AOvVaw3fMzxppRuCqctITOsdrbkJ

[Guardian]

What’s that?

[SocialD]

31 minutes ago, Royal said:

The mega back door Roth. They're trying to kill that will the BBB legislation:

 

Be a dick move if they did!  

 

13 minutes ago, Guardian said:

What’s that?

 

A good deal if you want filter a shit pile o'cash into a Roth IRA.  Your company has to have the option for an after tax contribution to your retirement plan.  You can contribute more than the $19.5k that the 401k is limited to, then roll it all over to a Roth IRA.  This allows you to contribute way more than the Roth IRA contribution limit of $6k.  Great if you're trying to jack up a Roth IRA to later use as a Self Directed IRA to invest in real estate...or simply want more cash in a Roth IRA.

Edited December 17, 2021 by SocialD

[LJ Driver]

2 hours ago, Royal said:

The mega back door Roth. They're trying to kill that will the BBB legislation:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiPwsb5wOn0AhXQK80KHYz8B9EQFnoECAIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.investopedia.com%2Fthreat-to-mega-backdoor-roth-conversions-5211038&usg=AOvVaw3J08yxL4EMszO3Fhn_Hqmb

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiPwsb5wOn0AhXQK80KHYz8B9EQFnoECBsQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fadvisor%2Fretirement%2Fcongress-to-end-backdoor-roth-conversions%2F&usg=AOvVaw3fMzxppRuCqctITOsdrbkJ

I know, it’s tragic this is even being considered. Literally a few hundred extremely wealthy people have amassed humongous Roth IRAs and the D’s answer to that is to shut down one of the best venues for average Joes to invest for retirement and pass some wealth to their kids…

[SurelySerious]

I know, it’s tragic this is even being considered. Literally a few hundred extremely wealthy people have amassed humongous Roth IRAs and the D’s answer to that is to shut down one of the best venues for average Joes to invest for retirement and pass some wealth to their kids…

Well that “generational wealth” is something they’re against so it makes sense, but they do characterize it as something only Peter Thiel types use… when it’s far more common as you said.

[likearock1515]

https://the-military-guide.com/maximizing-your-thrift-savings-plan-contributions-in-a-combat-zone/
 

I don’t believe everything I read on the internet, but this article seems to be written by someone who has done their research.  There’s a TON of fluff in it, and it is from a few years ago, so may not be 100% accurate, but I’m wary of what some folks have suggested up til this point regarding maxing your Roth ASAP.

Once you hit the elective deferral limit in your Roth, you may basically get locked out of any additional limit contributions, Roth or traditional.  (You certainly won’t be able to contribute anything over 20,500 into your Roth) Also, any additional limit contributions have to be made while you are in the combat zone, so an “early” deployment won’t do you much good.  The best way to work it, according to this article, would be to put $20,499 or less into your Roth, deploy long enough to dump 40,500 into the traditional side of your account, then put $1 into your Roth at the end of deployment or once you’re home.  If you are in the BRS then you obviously need to plan/spread the contributions out to where you don’t hose yourself out of a government match towards the end of the year.

Bottom line, my interpretation of a third party article is that if you hit your elective deferral limit by contributing 20,500 into your Roth, you may get locked out of additional limit contributions, unless the TSP coding has been fixed from when this article was written.  Hopefully it has been fixed, but it’s probably such a rare situation that I doubt finance or TSP folks could give you a 100% clear answer. Even if my interpretation of this article is wrong, you only potentially miss out on a small dollar amount in your Roth, which you can probably make up by the end of the calendar year.

Happy to hear any reattacks or real world experiences since I’ll be trying this myself this upcoming year.  Good luck!

 

[SocialD]

14 hours ago, LJ Driver said:

I know, it’s tragic this is even being considered. Literally a few hundred extremely wealthy people have amassed humongous Roth IRAs and the D’s answer to that is to shut down one of the best venues for average Joes to invest for retirement and pass some wealth to their kids…

 

 

They've already completed step 1 of that process by passing a law that requires any inherited IRA to be withdrawn within 10 years.