Question on administrative discipline and discharges

[Spaceballs]

As an officer, do administrative disciplines affect the type of discharge you receive if you have good conduct until you retire/separate? For example, if you have 10 years of good service and get an article 15, then have 10 more years of good service, can you expect an honorable discharge?

[Chida]

Is this a troll? Smells like a troll…

[Spaceballs]

6 minutes ago, Chida said:

Is this a troll? Smells like a troll…

No...

[Herkdrvr]

Short answer to your question is yes.  An officer could have some period of acceptable service, have a "lapse in judgment", receive an offer of & accept an Article 15, and then potentially continue & leave with an honorable. 

I'd caveat and say if the officer had done something sufficiently egregious that an Article 15 is being considered, you might not "expect" an honorable as the JAGs can (in my experience) get pretty zealous & will pursue a CM if they think they can prove all the required elements to a CM panel.  Any Art. 15 discussion suggests potential CM-level issues. 

That said, (as you probably already know) Art 15 is administrative & the only two discharges for officers as a result of that 'punishment' would be honorable or general (under honorable conditions).

Bad conduct/dishonorable come from the punitive articles of the UCMJ.

Lastly, if I've erred anywhere above, I'll happily stand corrected.

I'm not a lawyer, but I played one on TV.  Good general info

 

[Spaceballs]

1 hour ago, Herkdrvr said:

Short answer to your question is yes.  An officer could have some period of acceptable service, have a "lapse in judgment", receive an offer of & accept an Article 15, and then potentially continue & leave with an honorable. 

I'd caveat and say if the officer had done something sufficiently egregious that an Article 15 is being considered, you might not "expect" an honorable as the JAGs can (in my experience) get pretty zealous & will pursue a CM if they think they can prove all the required elements to a CM panel.  Any Art. 15 discussion suggests potential CM-level issues. 

That said, (as you probably already know) Art 15 is administrative & the only two discharges for officers as a result of that 'punishment' would be honorable or general (under honorable conditions).

Bad conduct/dishonorable come from the punitive articles of the UCMJ.

Lastly, if I've erred anywhere above, I'll happily stand corrected.

I'm not a lawyer, but I played one on TV.  Good general info

 

Thanks Herk, what is a CM?

[fire4effect]

9 minutes ago, Spaceballs said:

Thanks Herk, what is a CM?

My guess is Court Martial. 

[8BC]

Yes, Court Martial. You know, the thing…the Article 15 was offered by a Commander and accepted by the member as a Non-Judicial Punishment (NJP) as an alternative to a full Court Martial proceeding. Once an Article 15 is accepted, the Commander decides what the punishment will be, but in all cases will be equal to or less than the maximum punishment that could be imposed by a CM. The offer of Article 15 is usually used to streamline the amount of activity and time associated with a CM. If the charges or evidence were weak, or if the member was truly being railroaded, the offered Article 15 should have been declined by the member and the charges would go to CM. 

[Spaceballs]

Ahh ok. That makes sense. My understanding is if you get an article 15 from one command and they don't pursue to kick you out, that any future commanders wouldn't look to kick you out because of that unless you have future misconduct. As long as you have a clean record post-15, then you should expect an honorable. 

[Sua Sponte]

Honorable = Normal

General Under Honorable Conditions = You had honorable service, but you fucked up in a severe way (e.g., guilty at a courts martial with no punitive discharge given).

Other Than Honorable Discharge = Normally only given at a administrative discharge board where discharge is given, which for officers is known as a Board of Inquiry.

Dismissal (officer version of a dishonorable) = Only given at a General Court Martial

Note: Officers don’t receive Bad Conduct Discharges.

For VA benefit purposes, the entire period of service is determined by the VA. For example, I got court martialed in 2017. My enlistment during that court martial started in 2013. I joined in 2001 and had multiple enlistments before then of “honorable” service before 2013. The VA gave me all benefits because of my multiple honorable enlistments due to my General Under Honorable discharge. I don’t know how they would do that with officers with periods of ADSCs?

The only show stopper with VA benefits is getting a dismissal, which would prevent you from getting any VA benefits. The VA does their own determination of character of service if you were to get a General Under Honorable or in some extreme cases, an Other Than Honorable discharge.

Two boom operator Chief friends of mine are retiring in the next few months and they got Art 15s as TSgts. My brother has one as well and he made TSgt pretty early. As an officer if they don’t kick you out after one, you’re probably not going to go anywhere, career wise, and they’re just waiting for you to separate on your own.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Sua Sponte

[Herkdrvr]

11 hours ago, fire4effect said:

My guess is Court Martial. 

Correct. 

[Spaceballs]

That's some good info, thanks. I don't know how it works differently for officers. I'm hoping that over a decade of good service, getting a 15, and another decade of service means an honorable.

[frog]

1. This thread is just as bad as barracks lawyers. Go talk to the ADC and get a real answer if you need one. Ask about Show Cause Actions if you are concerned about your immediate future in the AF.

2. Your characterization will almost certainly be honorable if you serve for ten more years with no disciplinary issues after your 15.

[Spaceballs]

On 12/5/2021 at 1:41 AM, Tiger said:

I know this will sound intrusive but I can’t help my curiosity, is there a story you would like (or not) to share with us?  
 

On a side note, yes I can’t see how you would get anything less than an honorable 10 years after getting articled.

I'll gladly share it privately, but nothing I want to throw out there publicly just yet. I've had multiple commanders tell me it should have been an LOA at max.

[NKAWTG]

On 12/6/2021 at 1:54 AM, frog said:

1. This thread is just as bad as barracks lawyers. Go talk to the ADC and get a real answer if you need one. Ask about Show Cause Actions if you are concerned about your immediate future in the AF.

2. Your characterization will almost certainly be honorable if you serve for ten more years with no disciplinary issues after your 15.

#1 is the most correct answer so far.  ADC's are mixed bag, but should give you the best advice.  For the unsolicited advice side, start working the immediate exit plan.  You won't make the next rank with paperwork meeting the board. Doubtful you will be continued to 20 once twice passed over.  Guaranteed to be the top of the list when the next RIF occurs.     

[M2]

On 12/16/2021 at 11:18 AM, Spaceballs said:

I'll gladly share it privately, but nothing I want to throw out there publicly just yet. I've had multiple commanders tell me it should have been an LOA at max.

Did you not talk with an ADC when presented with the Art 15?!?

[Spaceballs]

On 12/18/2021 at 7:45 AM, M2 said:

Did you not talk with an ADC when presented with the Art 15?!?

Oh I did. The advice was basically - this guy has it out for you. Give him nothing.

On 12/17/2021 at 11:09 AM, NKAWTG said:

#1 is the most correct answer so far.  ADC's are mixed bag, but should give you the best advice.  For the unsolicited advice side, start working the immediate exit plan.  You won't make the next rank with paperwork meeting the board. Doubtful you will be continued to 20 once twice passed over.  Guaranteed to be the top of the list when the next RIF occurs.     

Even as an O-4 you think it's doubtful to make 20?

[Waingro]

5 minutes ago, Spaceballs said:

Oh I did. The advice was basically - this guy has it out for you. Give him nothing.

Have you already accepted the NJP? If not, and you feel this strongly about it, call the commander's bluff and refuse it. Then he's on the hook to take you to court martial, and to convince your peers that he's correct about your actions. Or he may back down and give you an LOR and referral OPR instead, and there's very little you can do about that. 

 

5 minutes ago, Spaceballs said:

Oh I did. The advice was basically - this guy has it out for you. Give him nothing.

Even as an O-4 you think it's doubtful to make 20?

Are you a pilot? It's possible it has happened in the past but I'm unaware of any year in which they didn't continue the entire 11X cohort. They didn't continue 12Xs one year that I recall, and it caused quite the uproar. I'd be surprised if you didn't get continued in either case, the USAF is in a pretty deep hole in terms of manning.

[Spaceballs]

4 minutes ago, Waingro said:

Have you already accepted the NJP? If not, and you feel this strongly about it, call the commander's bluff and refuse it. Then he's on the hook to take you to court martial, and to convince your peers that he's correct about your actions. Or he may back down and give you an LOR and referral OPR instead, and there's very little you can do about that. 

 

Are you a pilot? It's possible it has happened in the past but I'm unaware of any year in which they didn't continue the entire 11X cohort. They didn't continue 12Xs one year that I recall, and it caused quite the uproar. I'd be surprised if you didn't get continued in either case, the USAF is in a pretty deep hole in terms of manning.

I did already accept the 15 a little while back. It wasn't worth trying to fight it. They didn't go for anything remotely near what was lied about, only what I had done, ended, and owned up to. It's extremely minor and complete overkill to be a 15 in my opinion. I talked to one of the other leaders involved who told me the wg/cc was dead set on crushing me, the 15 was no bluff.

My home-station leadership has had my back the whole way. I know getting promoted is about 99% out of the question, but if I can stay an O-4, hit 20, and keep flying, I'm perfectly happy with that. 

 

[Sua Sponte]

2 hours ago, Tiger said:

So if I’m tracking correctly, you received the NJP directly from the wing king?  Sounds like it must have been kind of a big thing to get his attention, OR he stuck his nose in where it shouldn’t have been and made a big deal out of nothing which I can totally believe happened as well in today’s risk averse climate.

He's an FGO, that normally comes from the Wing King (maybe Gp/CC).

[Skitzo]

I did already accept the 15 a little while back. It wasn't worth trying to fight it. They didn't go for anything remotely near what was lied about, only what I had done, ended, and owned up to. It's extremely minor and complete overkill to be a 15 in my opinion. I talked to one of the other leaders involved who told me the wg/cc was dead set on crushing me, the 15 was no bluff.
My home-station leadership has had my back the whole way. I know getting promoted is about 99% out of the question, but if I can stay an O-4, hit 20, and keep flying, I'm perfectly happy with that. 

 

Dead-set on crushing you? Was this before considering all of the evidence? I suggest you talk to the ADC again based on what others have told you.

Commanders are supposed to at least appear to evaluate all facts before taking action. If the CC was making open remarks about specific punishment without the whole facts he is prejudging the case.

You cannot prejudge a case.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Standby]

2 hours ago, Skitzo said:

Dead-set on crushing you? Was this before considering all of the evidence? I suggest you talk to the ADC again based on what others have told you.

Commanders are supposed to at least appear to evaluate all facts before taking action. If the CC was making open remarks about specific punishment without the whole facts he is prejudging the case.

You cannot prejudge a case.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are you saying that the CC needs to interview the person receiving NJP prior to delivering it? 

[Skitzo]

Are you saying that the CC needs to interview the person receiving NJP prior to delivering it? 

No, you always have the right to say nothing.

The process of NJP in my experience centers around a carefully scripted process allowing time for a rebuttal as well as considering all evidence relevant to a matter before deciding on whether or not the offenses occurred and then what punishment is appropriate.

Case in point I had a troop drive without a license in a deployed environment and damage property. If I would have judged the case without offering due process and decided on a punishment without considering the mitigating circumstances I would be prejudging the case.

In this matter it is unclear what truly happened but if the cc was dead set on destroying him in meetings with other commanders that is something to be wary of especially if this was before the process was in its terminal phase.

To be clear I am not insinuating any malfeasance on anyone’s part just saying that the comments made do cause me some concern.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dream big]

13 hours ago, Tiger said:

Let’s be realistic though, sometimes commanders decide on these things way before judgement day, especially if there are underlying factors that the member being NJP’d is unaware of.  For instance, I witnessed a CGO receive an LOR/UIF from his squadron CC for something that I’m very confident should have been nothing more than an LOA/LOC, but the wing commander got involved and leaned on the squadron CC to make a big deal out of it.  Of course the squadron CC wasn’t going to tell his boss no, and the member got hammered.

The older I get the more I see those in the chain of command above the Sq level stick their nose into discipline, ranging from FEF action to LORs. Is this normal? Depends on leadership? What is a “normal” level of involvement from Group / Wing leadership when it comes to Sq/CCs handling discipline or FEF action? 

[Skitzo]

The older I get the more I see those in the chain of command above the Sq level stick their nose into discipline, ranging from FEF action to LORs. Is this normal? Depends on leadership? What is a “normal” level of involvement from Group / Wing leadership when it comes to Sq/CCs handling discipline or FEF action? 

The scenario being described would be unlawful command influence if the member was Article 15d based off of the superior commanders desires. If it was simply admin action only it’s not technically UCI but not the best optic.

Dream-the best example I saw about discussing admin and NJP was from a former MXG/CC I worked for at CVS. There was a weekly forum for all the commanders to discuss ongoing situations with the GP/CC in a private room at the Golf Course over breakfast. This allowed all the commanders to know what was going on and learn from one another 100% complete transparency and the GP/CC never told them or myself to alter their course or plan of action—asked questions sure and gave advice based on his experience but only for the benefit of all to learn from one another.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ThreeHoler]

The scenario being described would be unlawful command influence if the member was Article 15d based off of the superior commanders desires. If it was simply admin action only it’s not technically UCI but not the best optic.

Dream-the best example I saw about discussing admin and NJP was from a former MXG/CC I worked for at CVS. There was a weekly forum for all the commanders to discuss ongoing situations with the GP/CC in a private room at the Golf Course over breakfast. This allowed all the commanders to know what was going on and learn from one another 100% complete transparency and the GP/CC never told them or myself to alter their course or plan of action—asked questions sure and gave advice based on his experience but only for the benefit of all to learn from one another.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This style of weekly status of discipline at the OG level has been my experience at two separate AMC bases.