AFSOC questions

[Guest WSteig]

Hi, I am curious about the process one goes through to become part of AFSOC. I assume they are looking for above-average helo and heavy pilots who then go through specialized training.Could anyone provide some more concrete details?

[HerkDerka]

Hey Wsteig,

I might be able to help you a little since I'm trying to get into AFSOC myself.

1st) It is possible to go to AFSOC as a helo pilot right out of UPT but the chances aren't very good. An IP of mine who was a helo pilot said most pilots right out of Fort Rucker generally do one tour as a Huey pilot in the CONUS. However, after that tour they are usually expected to cross over to AFSOC.

2nd) It is also possible for students straight out of Corpus to go straight to AFSOC, but the situation is the same as above. Few AFSOC slots come down in our drops and it is more likely to do a tour in Slicks and then cross over to AFSOC.

Hope this helped ya!

PD

[Guest element10]

Originally posted by PegDriver24:

2nd) It is also possible for students straight out of Corpus to go straight to AFSOC, but the situation is the same as above. Few AFSOC slots come down in our drops and it is more likely to do a tour in Slicks and then cross over to AFSOC.

PD

I myself am in AFSOC and this is correct. A little of advice though if you try and go directly into AFSOC without flying operational first....have thick skin....

[Guest rotorhead]

The ACC HH-60G CSAR units just became AFSOC assets. This means the following for USAF rotorheads:

Nellis, Moody, and Davis Monthan HH-60G units are AFSOC....Mildenhall and Hurlburt MH-53 units are AFSOC, and if you are an HH-60G pilot at Keflavik (USAFE) or Kadena (PACAF) your next assignment will be AFSOC. In short, only a few H-1 units are left, all else is basically AFSOC. This means that 30/50 of Rucker USAF grads go to AFSOC.

[Guest flingwingwarrior]

Going to AFSOC from the Huey community is becoming more difficult, mainly do to an overload in the 60 and 53 qualification courses at Kirtland. This year alone there were approx 16 applicants for 7 MH-53 and apporx 7 for 1 HH-60 crossflow. So if you have any inclination to go to AFSOC do it out of mother Rucker!

And just remimber Pave Lows Lead..... While the 60's have migrated over to AFSOC there still is a very distinct difference between the mission of both of these MWS. The 60 is primarily for the recovery of downed aircrew, while the 53 is a insertation/extraction platform for "people and stuff". Just a small tidbit of information -- there are less Pave Low pilots than NASA astronauts..... :eek: If you have any desire to fly the MV-22 got to Paves! The first ones will be fielded in 05! I flew the sim, trust me, it is awesome! :eek:

[ 07 November 2003, 22:49: Message edited by: flingwingwarrior ]

[Guest ThreeGuns]

Yeah getting to AFSOC is tough outta UPT. It does happen though. Mostly only Combat Slicks make the drop from Corpus though. If you're gonna go AFSOC ask yourself why first. If it's because you want to "do the deed" then you should seriously consider the Gunship. If it's because the thought of flying low and landing on dirt runways is appealing then I'd recommend flying slicks. They do pretty much everything the Combat Slicks do (and more when you consider formation) and you'll still have the option of going to the dark side. If you're gonna go to AFSOC because you're looking for action...there is only one platform to consider. Big guns. Sounds like bar talk but it's the truth.

[Guest rotorhead]

Another issue that must be considered in discussions about AFSOC is the CV-22. A HUGE percentage of AFSOC resources is/will be poured into the Osprey. While it's capabilities are a hotly contested debate, AFSOC wants the new toy...bet on it. Mostly H-53 pilots will fly them, with a handful of 130 guys, and a couple of 60 guys. Time will tell if the "A" team in AFSOCs eyes fly the new toy. There will always be helos and 130s in AFSOC, though.

[WHAP]

Hey all, current UPT stud here. Im trying to figure out what to put on my sheet for track select (febuary). I was looking for info on C-130s in AFSOC straight out of UPT. I did a search on this forum and it seems like most others (work hard to get lucky). Is it this for the most part? How is Corpus training? Odds of getting spec ops 130s?

Any advice always appreciated.

[Baseops.Net]

If you study hard and fly well at Corpus, you can get an AFSOC 130 out of UPT. Not every class gets one down there, however, if you bust your butt and let your flight commander know from the start that is what you want, they can make it happen -- the drops are different out of Corpus, the squadrons down there get to *interact* with AFPC to try and match drops with what the class desires. One thing though, if you don't finish near the top of your Corpus class, you probably won't get an AFSOC assignment - they go quick!

You will most probably NOT get an AFSOC 130 out of T-1s. One thing to mention - if it is your longstanding aspiration to fly AFSOC 130s, Corpus is still the way to go -- as it is not too difficult to fly slicks for your first assignment and then go to an AFSOC herc after that.

The good thing about the Corpus track is that you know that you are going to a C-130 no matter what - i.e. no chance for other airframes.

Good luck & see you in AFSOC!

[Guest Crazykid]

I'm a STUD just about to finish t-6s and I have a few questions some of you might be able to help me with. I'm thinking about tracking to the C-130 side, and possibly into AFSOC one day. I have heard that the "Spec Ops community promotes differently." Not that my decision hinges on this, but I'm curious on if there is truth to that statement. Also, I know how lucky you have to be to catch a Spec Ops assignment out of Corpus, how hard is it to catch one out of another type of Herc? Also, after flying for AFSOC, is it easy to stay at the same base, or do they like to move you around to the couple that they own.... My quesion basically is if you have an average to above average career, are you able to stay at Hurby the whole time, or does it work differently for every guy.

On top of how great I hear Corpus is, how is working for the man in AFSOC. I know deployment is a way of life, but overall, do any of you dislike it?

Thanks from a man with many questions...

Thanks!

[Guest pavesooner]

Promote different? Not sure if I know what you mean....

It is nice that the community is small enough that most of the leadership gets to know you really well.

As far as hanging out at Hurlburt...as a Gunship guy this can happen...but the rest of us float from one base to the next....A gunship guy may be able to talk more about that case...

Kadena, Osan when it was open, Mildenhall, Eglin, Duke Field, and Kirtland are other bases most of us have been to...Through in all the EX ACC assets IE H-60's and HC-130's...now we have a number of other locations you could end up (Moody, Nellis, DM, etc......)

If you are picking AFSOC just becouse Hurlburt...well your wife and dog will enjoy it...if the ops tempo keeps up you wont be there much

[M2]

I think he means the rumor promotions aren't as prevalent in AFSOC...

The USAF considers you for promotion by AFSC and basically by what you have accomplished during your career and your potential (I know, I am simplifying this but I don’t want to get into a long, detailed discussion on the issue). Considering AFSOC’s OPSTEMPO, being in Spec Ops could be helpful and a hindrance. For one, PME might be a problem unless you get a residence course like ClearedHot. If you have to complete it by correspondence it might be tougher. Same goes for a grad degree, and despite what the USAF is saying that is still a weighty factor in promotion. I seriously doubt a senior rater will not use it as a discriminating factor for promotion to lieutenant colonel, if not major. It all depends on the senior rater. But, on the other hand, that same OPSTEMPO will get you the kind of experience the USAF likes to see. Right now Spec Ops plays a major role in the combat portion of OEF (again, I am not trying to diminish anyone else’s role, I am just sticking to AFSOC), that’s worth a lot of “promotion points.”

Now, there may be a problem of guys getting into AFSOC and not wanting to leave, which can have a detrimental effect on your career. As much as we all hate it, staff jobs and “broadening tours” are part of the career process. You can forgo those to an extent, but your advancement may suffer because of it. But shit, if you enjoy what you are doing and would rather do that then sit in an office typing BS on a computer all day, like some of us do :( , then go with what your gut tells you and push hard for that AFSOC assignment. If I were a young lad it would certainly be high on my list.

Just my €0.02 and the ramblings of an old fart. I am sure CH or some other old AFSOCers will roll in on this one to give you the true gouge...

Cheers! M²

[Guest croftfam]

AFSOC is the way to go. I'm SUPER new to it, so I may not be the best person to talk about it, but what I've seen and heard so far is some optimistic stuff. Of course, that could just be them trying to sell me on sticking around. They don't need to do that though. Pavehawks are fun as it is!

[Guest pavesooner]

Since my arrival in 97,

I have had 9 Sq Commanders.... 8 have made 0-6 so far and the other one is Rumsfelds Aid and its just a matter of time...

Not too bad....Being in AFSOC, I have never heard that we dont promote well...

[ 19. April 2005, 10:12: Message edited by: pavesooner ]

[ClearedHot]

AFSOC promotes at a rate equal to or greater than the rest of the USAF.

In the old days there were problems because many viewed Spec Ops folks as cowboys. That stereotype is no longer true. In fact I would argue that the bureaucratic ways of the big blue USAF are firmly entrenched in AFSOC. There are a few communities within the command that have completely cracked the code and thrive at making fast-burners that are on track for general officer.

At the risk of pissing folks off you should know point blank that the Talon II's and Pavelows run AFSOC. Many will argue and say there is no Talon or Pave mafia, but the facts speak for themselves. There are several wings in AFSOC but Hurlburt is the king daddy rabbit. Ever single 16 SOW/CC since AFSOC stood up has made O-7. That being said, every single 16 SOW/CC has been a Talon II or Pavelow dude. There is only one base that has gunships, yet they can't seem to get the top job or the Group/CC job for that matter.

Now that AFSOC has new wings at Moody and Kirtland, and given the Gunship play in nearly every operation since Desert Storm we are seeing Gunship folks make it to the top job at those locations. It is my guess several of them will make O-7 on the next board, but outside the 16SOW job.

I've been out of the loop for sometime, but I do get e-mails almost everyday from folks screaming about the politics. One rumor has popped up several times in the last few years about DP allocations on recent promotion boards, (100% for Talon II eligibles, while the Gunships were lucky to get one or two.) It could be folks crying over spilt milk, but there were only three gunship types at ACSC last year and only two this year.

What does it all mean Francis? If you choose AFSOC you stand an equal chance of being promoted, but unlike any other MWS, there are politics that will be in the mix.

[Guest pavesooner]

Talk about fast burners....

My current Sq Commander was:

2 Below to Maj

2 Below to Lt Col

And just got Selected 2 Below to O-6

6yrs ahead now...and yes he is a Pavelow guy!

Cleared Hot....you know D'Argenio...I worke dwith him at XP...great guy...I'd work for him again in a heartbeat....You gunship guys got ripped off on a few Maj boards a couple of years ago...hopefully that is being corrected....The 4th and the 16th have been fully employed for the last several years and the rewards should follow.

[ 19. April 2005, 15:28: Message edited by: pavesooner ]

[Murph]

An AFSOC out of Corpus is possible if you bust your hump. Since I got here I've seen/heard of 4 wingings which included 3 AC-130s, 3 MC-130s and HC-130s. All in all, not too bad. I'm just speculating, but I think the high rate of AFSOC drops is related to the beginning of the fiscal year. Hopefully, the rate continues but who knows what AFPC holds for the future. The best thing you can do is to obviously perform and put the bug in your SQ/CC ear along with the former AFSOC IPs in your squadron. Good luck.

[FourFans]

So what are the chances of moving to AFSOC (AC-130s for argument's sake) after a tour in slicks? Is it pulling teeth to get AMC to let go of you...or for that matter getting AFSOC to take you?

[ 06. June 2005, 17:24: Message edited by: FourFans130 ]

[Guest kirkhac]

I think that the EC you are thinking of was actually an HC with all the rest being slicks. I heard the same rumor that everyone is overmanned right now and not much is coming down in the way of Spec Ops. Good luck with your drop.

[Guest Dotcom]

As far as HC's are concerned I know that both DM and Moody are close to 300% manned in the copilot area. I'll be shocked if you see an HC drop for the rest of the year.

[Wing Sweep]

AFSOC is the greatest command in the USAF, hands down! I wish there wasn't as much Big Blue influence as I see creeping in, but I'm sure it comes and goes in waves just like everything else. CH is right about the Talon and Pave mafia. It's definitely in full effect. With the Osprey coming in, who knows what will happen (that's a whole different subject). AFSOC doesn't just train to do cool stuff in training and then do something entirely different in combat. What we train to do is what we do in combat. The HCs have been part of ACC for so long that they sometimes have trouble getting rid of ACC habits. Hopefully a few more years will rid them of of the un-AFSOC ways. Don't know much about the 60 community except for everyone who flies them, loves them. From what I've seen, it's good for AFSOC guys to take a few steps back and see how good we really are. I left AFSOC in March and am now in AETC. I really think we have some of the best aviators (officer and enlisted) in the world. Yes, there are exceptions, but that's anywhere you fly. I hope to return to AFSOC as soon as I can. Best people, best missions, and we don't advertise our deployments on the local paper.

[Guest Knock_It_Off]

The problem with AFSOC is that some of the senior AFSOC leaders have a serious lack of integrity. Look at three recently selected general officers and you will see a pattern. One recent 16th SOW/CC was multiple years below the zone and was selected for BG. He left Hurlburt for JSOC and after a short time was under investigation. He was forced to retire as an O-6 a few months later. A few newspapers picked up on it but never published the “real story”.

Another former 16th SOW/CC is returning to be the AFSOC Vice Commander. He is a notorious hammer on people who get DUIs, despite that fact that he had a DUI accident as a young captain and put a German civilian in a wheelchair. While he was the 16th SOW/CC, 8 out of 8 Talon II officers up for Major received a DP the first year and 9 out of 9 the second year. The Pavelows, Shadows, and especially Gunships paid a heavy price for that blatant display of parochialism. There are “rumors” of another incident while he was the Little Rock Wing/CC, but nothing seems to stick to this guy. Is it odd that his bio has been removed from the USAF general officers site?

Another AFOSC general officer was selected for promotion to MGen (announced by OSD), in April, but suddenly retired two weeks ago….curious. The majority of senior officers in AFSOC are genuine good people. Hopefully things will turn around in a few years, in the meantime…watchout!

[Guest dtfl]

Aahh yes..the AFSOC thread.

Crazykid - read carefully. And beware of anyone, especially young guys who say ______ is the GREATEST BESTEST EVER.

I told slacker about GO #1. It's in effect - for all the guys TDY right now. Seeing as how I am sitting at the SOF desk..I would know.

Flying - AFSOC flying pushes the envelope more than any other flying ever will. That is AFSOC's job. Operation Eagle Claw had numerous deficincies that were rememdied with the creation of - Spec Ops. You'll fly lower than other C130s..in higher threat environments.

QOL - My $.02. SUCKS. SUCKS. SUCKS. SUCKS.

Period. Live Pave Sooner said - Your wife and dog will enjoy it here..provided you can afford a house..now that everything has doubled in the last couple years. if you want to live down here check out Gulf Breeze or Crestview - nice places that are more affordable.

Promotions - my $.02 again - AFSOC does a LOT more than most. When you have combat time on your record...it's not flying A-B at 20k. It's at 500' getting shot at or shooting someone from a firing orbit or hauling a team out of a dust-out LZ. That means you will have quite a few more medals than the other guy (save some fighter guys who get a lot of Air Medals for CAP missions). You will have mor JOINT experience than anyone else..and you will know mor acronyms than you ever want to. My point is I think as far as the AF is concerned AFSOC experience will get your promoted. Especially if you leave for another command or the reserves.

Dont buy the "this is the worst command" "or this is the best" command stuff. Talk to people. Come visit. You have to make your own decision..for some folks flying C5s is the best job ever..for others not so much.

LJ driver - AFSOC isnt turning off alcohol - the 16 SOW CC is.

As far as the post about less AFSOC out of UPT..I would expect that. Recent crashes have highlighted problems wiht experience. Folks have been talking about teking less 2lts and more folks with C130 experience - from AMC.

[ 23. June 2005, 19:59: Message edited by: dtfl ]

[Wing Sweep]

dtfl,

You're right. It's not for everyone. I've definitely seen that in some people. So let me rephrase, AFSOC is the "greatest, bestest" command I've been in because of what you mentioned. All crewmembers, planes and maintainers push their limits. I had a great time and experience during those years. I did everything I expected plus more. I have memories I'll never forget and some that well.... So your analysis is correct and yes I'm young at 29.

BTW, that whole not drinking thing. I remember I was on my way from the desert during hurricane Ivan and I heard some of the SOW guys got in trouble out at Campbell during the evac. I think this might have been when O.G. got the idea for no alcohol during TDYs. I've heard about this like everyone else, but...

[Guest MistahKurtz]

being the son of a pavelow pilot, i've had an interesting view of AFSOC over the years. the major thing i've noticed is the apparent tightnit brotherhood that comes from flying missions other units would consider insane and suicidal accompanied with the fact that there aren't a whole lot of flying positions for AFSOC flyers, so they usually end up rotating between hurlburt, mildenhall, and kirtland a lot. EVERYBODY knows each other and has some bizarre story involving beer and a gunner with a hooker. AFSOC takes care of its own.

right now AFSOC is both reveling in and remorsing the outcome of 4 years of continuous combat deployment with the number of crashes and deaths including the most recent one involving the STS and 6th SOS guys and the fact that AFSOC pilots have received more medals for valor and courage under fire than any other command in the AF. i believe the 20th SOS alone has received 6 or 7 AF level awards in just the past 2 years, including the Jolly Green Giant Association award for rescue of the year for 2004, and the 20th isn't even technically a rescue unit.

if you want to go into combat even when there is no war, and be part of a small, fiercly protective brotherhood of war with proud lineage stemming back to WWII, AFSOC is the place.