Energy Policy

[Milton]

Many of these physical or kinetic storage systems are indeed hypothetically possible, but run into the same geographic, environmental, hydrological, and size constraints that nuclear systems do (for similar or varied reasons). 

The upfront costs for nuclear generation are significant - you need a large piece of real estate, access to freshwater, and buffers to natural and human environments in the event something bad happens.  It also takes  a shit ton of concrete, steal, and other infrastructure to get a plant up and running.  But once they're running, you have several decades of reliable, consistent generation.

With a pumped storage system, you need to have the right environmental and geographical factors in a watershed that will allow a large delta in water flow between high/low levels (California...good luck!).  That's a shit ton of water to smooth demand in a large metro area.  This has massive effects on hydrology up and downstream from the generator.  That's a lot of earth, construction materials, and water just to store energy.  You then need all the space for a solar or wind farm for generation.

Nuclear has hurdles, but really doesn't need storage or peaking capacity like renewables do.  We are still going to need fuels for aviation, transportation, and heating in the near future but nuclear is the best way forward for clean and reliable electricity.  

[czecksikhs]

Too bad we import half of our uranium from Russia....

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[FLEA]

While we are at it, may as well bring up that the Biden Admin just restored California's authority to unilaterally determine vehicle emissions standards for cars sold nationwide. Not sure how I feel about that one. Definitely an issue of states rights, but a case where one state can flex it's economic status to force other states to comply. 

[jrizzell]

The problem is that the time scale to build a nuclear plant is more or less twenty years at this point.

The Watts Barr nuclear plant in Tennessee is most recent construction in US. Began in 1973, has two reactors, Unit 1, completed in 1996, and Unit 2, completed in 2015.; 23 and 43 years respectively.

Nuclear is a great option, but not a quick one.


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[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, jrizzell said:

The Watts Barr nuclear plant in Tennessee is most recent construction in US. Began in 1973, has two reactors, Unit 1, completed in 1996, and Unit 2, completed in 2015.; 23 and 43 years respectively.

Nuclear is a great option, but not a quick one.


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Paper from Stanford written in 2018 says about 10 years.  No time like the present to start.

https://large.stanford.edu/courses/2017/ph241/park-k2/

[arg]

[hockeydork]

Cool map that Peter Zeihan had linked in a twitter thread. I know I am the wind nerd in this thread but....look what happens if you can get turbine heights to 200 meters. 

https://globalwindatlas.info/area/United States of America

[nsplayr]

"The dwarves delved too greedily and too deep."

This is not my prefered "all of the above" option lol 😅

[herkbum]

The Watts Barr nuclear plant in Tennessee is most recent construction in US. Began in 1973, has two reactors, Unit 1, completed in 1996, and Unit 2, completed in 2015.; 23 and 43 years respectively.

Nuclear is a great option, but not a quick one.


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Right down the road from me. Pass it on the way to my dad’s place on the river.


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[pbar]

2 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Paper from Stanford written in 2018 says about 10 years.  No time like the present to start.

https://large.stanford.edu/courses/2017/ph241/park-k2/

The only nuclear plants under construction in the US, Plants Vogtle 3 & 4 in Georgia, were started in 2009 and will finish in late 2022 and 2023 respectively but they had a couple years of delay due to Westinghouse's bankruptcy.  

Pretty fascinating technology and way mis-reported in the media.  I was the manager for the state nuclear response team for a couple years after AF retirement (cool job but the chain-of-command were f@cking morons, so I left). 

[HeloDude]

How it started…

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/biden-energy-sec-granholm-laughs-boosting-oil-hilarious
 

How it’s going…

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/granholm-energy-executives-produce-more-russia-ukraine
 

 But yeah, it’s all Russia’s fault.

[bfargin]

Lots of new fuel sources are being tested/developed. I read this article last year on where some of the technology for nuclear power generation is heading. Substantially less initial fuel required and less waste as a result. The French (Germans were -  but not sure of their current efforts) are seeking ways to recycle nuclear waste resulting in even less waste going forward.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2021/07/20/new-nuclear-fuel-can-be-here-even-faster-than-new-reactorsaneel/?sh=55792faccc19

[BFM this]

 

[Sim]

[nsplayr]

Cool cartoon and all, but US domestic oil production during Biden's time in office has been very high! The highest, in fact! More is great and let's do it specifically to screw over Putin but...it's hard to complain when he's #1. Domestic Oil King Biden 2024, basically.

Sucks when the actual data doesn't fit your preconceived notions though...if anything you can blame Dubya, the rich cowboy rancher from Big Oil Texas for severely underproducting during his 8 years in office 😁

Ya know it's almost as if it's not as simple as 1) President says thing, 2) massive industry bends to his will. The US in fact does not have a state-owned oil production monopoly, but I'm all ears if you'd like to propose that in order to give the executive branch more direct control of production at any given time.

It's almost as if oil is a global commodity controlled mostly by a merry band of dictators and foreign country politics + global market prices drive the vast majority of production decisions that affect prices...weird.

Source: yes it's paywalled but I pay and it's well worth the subscription

p.s. - can we try to keep at least 1 thread about actual policy free of meme-driven pure political sh*t-talking? I vote yes, who's with me? Mutual disarmament to actually discuss energy policy...we already made it to page 2 and have stayed on the rails so far...you in @Sim?

Edited March 11, 2022 by nsplayr

[slc]

1 hour ago, nsplayr said:

Cool cartoon and all, but US domestic oil production during Biden's time in office has been very high! The highest, in fact! More is great and let's do it specifically to screw over Putin but...it's hard to complain when he's #1. Domestic Oil King Biden 2024, basically.

Sucks when the actual data doesn't fit your preconceived notions though...if anything you can blame Dubya, the rich cowboy rancher from Big Oil Texas for severely underproducting during his 8 years in office 😁

Ya know it's almost as if it's not as simple as 1) President says thing, 2) massive industry bends to his will. The US in fact does not have a state-owned oil production monopoly, but I'm all ears if you'd like to propose that in order to give the executive branch more direct control of production at any given time.

It's almost as if oil is a global commodity controlled mostly by a merry band of dictators and foreign country politics + global market prices drive the vast majority of production decisions that affect prices...weird.

Source: yes it's paywalled but I pay and it's well worth the subscription

p.s. - can we try to keep at least 1 thread about actual policy free of meme-driven pure political sh*t-talking? I vote yes, who's with me? Mutual disarmament to actually discuss energy policy...we already made it to page 2 and have stayed on the rails so far...you in @Sim?

Wrong. Again. 

[hockeydork]

1 hour ago, nsplayr said:

Cool cartoon and all, but US domestic oil production during Biden's time in office has been very high! The highest, in fact! More is great and let's do it specifically to screw over Putin but...it's hard to complain when he's #1. Domestic Oil King Biden 2024, basically.

Sucks when the actual data doesn't fit your preconceived notions though...if anything you can blame Dubya, the rich cowboy rancher from Big Oil Texas for severely underproducting during his 8 years in office 😁

Ya know it's almost as if it's not as simple as 1) President says thing, 2) massive industry bends to his will. The US in fact does not have a state-owned oil production monopoly, but I'm all ears if you'd like to propose that in order to give the executive branch more direct control of production at any given time.

It's almost as if oil is a global commodity controlled mostly by a merry band of dictators and foreign country politics + global market prices drive the vast majority of production decisions that affect prices...weird.

Source: yes it's paywalled but I pay and it's well worth the subscription

p.s. - can we try to keep at least 1 thread about actual policy free of meme-driven pure political sh*t-talking? I vote yes, who's with me? Mutual disarmament to actually discuss energy policy...we already made it to page 2 and have stayed on the rails so far...you in @Sim?

I'd like to keep political bashing out as well if we can, we've got a whole presidential thread for people to crap on their respective most hated candidates. 

I would like to add that from a long term policy perspective fossil fuel prices will inevitably go up even adjusted for inflation, never down. I am not saying this has anything to do with the recent spike, but as more oil is pumped from the ground, there's less in the ground, which long term (talking over hundreds of years) is going to force the prices higher. Oil isn't anymore free from the econ 101 supply and demand curve than any other desired good. 

[arg]

Posted the link because because it's interactive. Look what happened between January and August 2020. Also November 2016 to January 2020.

https://www.macrotrends.net/2562/us-crude-oil-production-historical-chart

[uninformed]

New guy commenting, but have been reading and learning here for years. 

nsplayr, I believe the cartoon has more truth than you realize (at least in the minds of those that control oil production).  I was talking to my older brother two days ago.  He spent 30+ years as a chemical engineer in the oil industry.  He pointed out that the oil industry absolutely reacts to whose in office.  They take note of the words and policies of the president.  The industry noted how Biden recently reached out to Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, and Iran but didn't reach out to west Texas or North Dakota.  Oil companies know Biden will pull the rug out from under them any chance he gets and they are in no mood to invest while he's president.  So don't expect to see a huge jump in production to offset the current crises.  Big oil will enjoy the higher profit margins but will wait until someone less hostile is in office to invest in new production. 

[hockeydork]

1 hour ago, arg said:

Posted the link because because it's interactive. Look what happened between January and August 2020. Also November 2016 to January 2020.

https://www.macrotrends.net/2562/us-crude-oil-production-historical-chart

Def interesting. One has to assume that if you have somebody in office whose going to push to keep doing things  the way we've been doing them, oil producers will be more comfortable pushing investment toward future production.

If you get somebody who wants to turn they way we power our world on its head, those investments are going to lag. 

 

Transitioning to different power sources, even if its only partially, isn't going to be seamless. CD players didn't disappear over night when the ipod was first released. 

 

[Day Man]

1 hour ago, arg said:

Posted the link because because it's interactive. Look what happened between January and August 2020. Also November 2016 to January 2020.

https://www.macrotrends.net/2562/us-crude-oil-production-historical-chart

I wonder what happened in 2020 that could have crushed demand so severely? We may never know.

And 16-20 seems to be a continuation of the path it was on under the Obama admin minus this.

[GrndPndr]

Guess I picked a bad day to own a vehicle which only consumes premium fuel.  $5.15/gal this morning.  

Did Joe do that, or was it Putin?

[JimNtexas]

 We voted for  Biden.   We are getting what we voted for.

Good and hard.

Quote

Promises made, promises kept

I Guarantee it

[busdriver]

3 hours ago, GrndPndr said:

Guess I picked a bad day to own a vehicle which only consumes premium fuel.  $5.15/gal this morning.  

Regular is up to $5 in Vegas.  And I get 13mpg.

Driving to Cali in two weeks is gonna get pricey.  Vidal Junction is up to $6.59 (it's in the middle of nowhere)

Feel my pain!

[arg]

My 98 Honda Accord is getting 35 MPG, about two gallons to get to work and back, so that's what I'm driving right now.  I had 500 gallons of ethanol free gas delivered early last year before the price went up. Haven't tapped into it yet. If gas gets much higher I will, hoping the price will go down. Also had 500 gallons of diesel and about 1,000 gallons of propane delivered. It would cost me more than double to have that delivered now. 

I have two old school diesels. An 84 Mercedes 300TD and a 97 F-350 Powerstroke. Both have over 300,000 miles on them but they are still healthy. I'm going to experiment burning used filtered motor oil in them, diluted with gas or diesel.

That's my new energy policy, we'll see how it goes.