Minstry of Truth

[HU&W]

On 4/29/2022 at 2:49 PM, arg said:

Just in time for an election.

 

Timing is everything.  It needs to be in place far enough in advance of the election to be useful.  Elections, after all, are a stated primary target of this board.  This way, if both houses swing hard right, the administration will have a tool to undermine faith in the legitimacy of those newly elected senators and representatives.  Especially if they start treating the President with the same courtesy that was shown to the last one. 

[Premo]

On 5/1/2022 at 9:21 AM, Clark Griswold said:

First debrief of a website and content creator deemed to be disinformation:

 

Yeah the episode I referenced the most during four years of Donald Trump's presidency. Nothing 1984 about those years at all.

Oh wait, it started with this guy:

Then ended with hair dye dripping down Guliani's face and Four Seasons Total Landscaping.

The pearl clutching from the 6-9 baseops/politics regulars in this thread is very entertaining.

[M2]

Ironic, CH starts a thread about disinformation, and suddenly we have two new members arguing he's wrong about it...

[Demonrat]

13 hours ago, M2 said:

Ironic, CH starts a thread about disinformation, and suddenly we have two new members arguing he's wrong about it...

I’ve been a long time lurker of these forums. I’ve always wanted to post to provide some different points of view from the white conservative Christian background/worldview that dominates these forums and the USAF pilot community as a whole.

However, it seems like it’s an exercise in futility and a massive waste of time. Nobody is going to change their mind on any topic no matter how convincing of an argument one puts forth. Emotional reactions like “it’s the beginning of the end for free speech in America” with zero substance galvanize the majority on this forum with any dissent summarily stamped out. These type of reactions are prevalent in all forms of social media, preventing constructive discourse and garnering reactions like “I can’t believe there are people who support the government deciding what is disinformation or not like in the book 1984 with the Ministry of Truth.”

The fact of the matter is that disinformation is a serious problem in all of society and something needs to be done to combat it, especially from external sources who are looking to cause harm in America. If you can verify the source as a Russian or Chinese internet troll, then the information should cease to exist. This is an extremely limited portion of the disinformation that is out there. Free speech stays free speech within America, but countering misuse of our First Amendment Rights by external governments looking to generate chaos in the US is a national priority.
 

I definitely share the concerns shown in this forum about government overreach, but I think a balance can be found with the proper authorities in place and a strong legal review of any actions taken by the organization. I think it’s better than doing nothing and letting malign actors slowly rip the fabric of US society apart. 

[nsplayr]

3 minutes ago, Demonrat said:

However, it seems like it’s an exercise in futility and a massive waste of time.

You are correct, I highly recommend other hobbies!

[ClearedHot]

15 minutes ago, Demonrat said:

The fact of the matter is that disinformation is a serious problem in all of society and something needs to be done to combat it, especially from external sources who are looking to cause harm in America. If you can verify the source as a Russian or Chinese internet troll, then the information should cease to exist.

The lady that will be leading this board labeled the Hunter Biden Laptop Russian Disinformation and by your rule set it would have ceased to exist.  If you can't grip the importance of that one fact, then yes it is a massive waste of time for you to be here.

[Scooter14]

However, it seems like it’s an exercise in futility and a massive waste of time. Nobody is going to change their mind on any topic no matter how convincing of an argument one puts forth.

Wait, so are you trying to tell us that arguing on the internet doesn’t change peoples minds?

[Demonrat]

1 hour ago, ClearedHot said:

The lady that will be leading this board labeled the Hunter Biden Laptop Russian Disinformation and by your rule set it would have ceased to exist.  If you can't grip the importance of that one fact, then yes it is a massive waste of time for you to be here.

The Hunter Biden Laptop Russian Disinformation subject is so politically charged that getting to the truth of that situation is as futile as arguing on the internet.

I do think it's extremely unfortunate for America that Russian hackers can leak politically sensitive information in a bid to sway US elections. Information that is illegally acquired by an external actor and then presented to the American public to serve purposes that are not in the interest of the United States is disinformation. Now, if the source is an American journalist or organization that legally had access to Hunter Biden's laptop information and leaked it to the press, then that is a different story. If that is the case here (it's basically impossible to find non-partisan information on the Hunter Biden laptop subject), then the information within that laptop is fair game. 

I don't worship President Biden like some people worship "God-Emperor" Trump, but both of them have done things that I agree with and things that I disagree with. 

 

Quote

44 minutes ago, Scooter14 said:

 

Wait, so are you trying to tell us that arguing on the internet doesn’t change peoples minds?

 

 

 

I still find value in at least presenting dissenting viewpoints on a forum like this. We all will be working with, working for, and leading members who may have differing worldviews than the majority conservative Christians within the USAF operations world. Practicing some tolerance and understanding of why a person thinks the way they do can go a long way in connecting with people who hold different beliefs and values, and part of that starts with at least being exposed to different viewpoints. Trying to change people's minds is almost always a waste of time, but getting them to at least consider a different opinion for one millisecond has value. I've been getting downvoted like crazy, but I expect that in an echo chamber of a profession mostly made up of people with similar worldviews.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Demonrat

[brickhistory]

1 hour ago, Demonrat said:

I definitely share the concerns shown in this forum about government overreach, but I think a balance can be found with the proper authorities in place and a strong legal review of any actions taken by the organization. I think it’s better than doing nothing and letting malign actors slowly rip the fabric of US society apart. 

I refer you to the FBI's deliberate misuse of the FISA legal system.  Not just against people in Trump's orbit, but just American citizens.

I refer you to several NSA programs that look at US citizens communications that deliberately circumvented the "legal review" system in place.

I refer you to the IRS' targeting of Tea Party entities in the early 2000s.

I refer you to the CIA's spying on Americans in the 1950s/60s/70s.

I refer you to the DoD's program to monitor the social media of service members today.

I can go from today back to the John Adams Administration and the Sedition Act of 1800 with such examples of the government not being trustworthy and stifling wrong think.

 

But sure, you rail against the enemy of "white, Christian, conservative men" and trust the government. 

A)  Let me know how that works for ya and B) that is a great gig if you can be the one deciding.  

[busdriver]

10 minutes ago, Demonrat said:

Now, if the source is an American journalist or organization that legally had access to Hunter Biden's laptop information and leaked it to the press, then that is a different story. 

What if the NKVD found hidden papers that proved a political candidate was an actual serial killer?  Should the public be somehow required to abide by the fruit of the poison tree concept?

How about an actual historical example: Pentagon Papers.

What you are describing has never existed, and is anathema to an actual functioning fourth estate.

Foreign fuckery in American politics has been a thing since at least the 1796 election.  Russia has been at it in earnest for a hundred years.

[Demonrat]

2 minutes ago, brickhistory said:

I refer you to the FBI's deliberate misuse of the FISA legal system.  Not just against people in Trump's orbit, but just American citizens.

I refer you to several NSA programs that look at US citizens communications that deliberately circumvented the "legal review" system in place.

I refer you to the IRS' targeting of Tea Party entities in the early 2000s.

I refer you to the CIA's spying on Americans in the 1950s/60s/70s.

I refer you to the DoD's program to monitor the social media of service members today.

I can go from today back to the John Adams Administration and the Sedition Act of 1800 with such examples of the government not being trustworthy and stifling wrong think.

 

But sure, you rail against the enemy of "white, Christian, conservative men" and trust the government. 

A)  Let me know how that works for ya and B) that is a great gig if you can be the one deciding.  

I'm not railing against being a white conservative Christian. It's a perfectly valid worldview, but something has to be said for changing demographics and for preventing extremist policies (both far-left and far-right) to permeate American society. 

You are right, government overreach into the lives of private citizens is absolutely an issue that needs to be reigned in, but there are some (limited) situations where the government should be able to operate to safeguard US interests. No system will ever be perfect and the government likes to push and exceed its legal authorities, so I appreciate people like you who are willing to call the government out when it misuses its power. I just think absolute government distrust is a step too far, especially if you serve in the military.

[ClearedHot]

9 minutes ago, Demonrat said:

The Hunter Biden Laptop Russian Disinformation subject is so politically charged that getting to the truth of that situation is as futile as arguing on the internet.

I disagree and think an objective mind would look at the emails, the pictures, the money and the testimony from folks who were there and at the very lease arrive at the conclusion that this needs to be investigated, not suppressed.  I think a non-partisan investigation MUST happen.

11 minutes ago, Demonrat said:

I do think it's extremely unfortunate for America that Russian hackers can leak politically sensitive information in a bid to sway US elections. Information that is illegally acquired by an external actor and then presented to the American public to serve purposes that are not in the interest of the United States is disinformation. Now, if the source is an American journalist or organization that legally had access to Hunter Biden's laptop information and leaked it to the press, then that is a different story. If that is the case here (it's basically impossible to find non-partisan information on the Hunter Biden laptop subject), then the information within that laptop is fair game.

I 100% agree but we have seen the press become completely bifurcated along partisan lines.  The press (on both sides of the aisle), rather than act as the 4th estate has turned into a cheerleader for each political candidate.  Honestly I expect political parties to act stupid, but I never thought the press would be such a failure, we REALLY need them acting as a check on power to keep our system viable.

15 minutes ago, Demonrat said:

I don't worship President Biden like some people worship "God-Emperor" Trump, but both of them have done things that I agree with and things that I disagree with.

I agree here as well, I voted for Trump both times, VERY reluctantly the second time.  He is a narcissistic ass clown but many (not all), of his policies were working and I was very concerned about the uber-liberal wing of the DNC controlled power and driving decisions like they are able to do with Biden.   I hope Trump doesn't run again, I fear he will and he is doing great damage to the GOP and ruining a chance for them to be a moderate party more in the middle.  This Roe V Wade fiasco isn't going to help matters either.

20 minutes ago, Demonrat said:

I still find value in at least presenting dissenting viewpoints on a forum like this.

Of course, that is the foundation of our country, we can discuss dissenting view, sometime very passionately.  We may yell at each other and vehemently disagree but I am not going to commission a hit man to kill you and your family to eliminate your opinion.  Can you imagine some of these discussions in Russia or China? 

22 minutes ago, Demonrat said:

the majority conservative Christians within the USAF operations world.

An interesting generalization.  Numerous studies have shown a decline in adherence to religion in our country and I think that translates to the military as well, likely because we hold a range of beliefs that don't nest exclusively in party.  I consider myself a Republican, but many in the party would disown me because I believe in abortion (51% vote in favor in my pear brain mainly because of women's rights, it is abhorrent but I have ZERO right telling a woman what to do with her body), I am in favor of gay rights and gay marriage (I could care less what you do in your own home and I truly want EVERYONE to be happy). 

30 minutes ago, Demonrat said:

getting them to at least consider a different opinion for one millisecond has value.

I agree.  It is probably obvious the laptop absolutely enrages me.  There is so much circumstantial evidence but NO ONE on the left (including you and other more liberal folks on this forum), can take a minute to honestly say yeah that doesn't smell right, we need the truth.

[GrndPndr]

49 minutes ago, Demonrat said:

See Below...

<snip> ...and for preventing extremist policies (both far-left and far-right) to permeate American society.  WHY SHOULD WE PREVENT THIS TYPE OF FREE SPEECH?

You are right, government overreach into the lives of private citizens is absolutely an issue that needs to be reigned in, but there are some (limited) situations where the government should be able to operate to safeguard US interests. No system will ever be perfect and the government likes to push and exceed its legal authorities, so I appreciate people like you who are willing to call the government out when it misuses its power.  APPRECIATES PEOPLE LIKE BH!  Word!  YOU'RE SOFT-PEDDALING, BY THE WAY.

I just think absolute government distrust is a step too far, especially if you serve in the military.  I MISSED IT DAMN IT, WHERE WAS THE ABSOLUTE PART?  WHY DO I ALWAYS MISS THE BEST PARTS?

[arg]

8 hours ago, Demonrat said:

 I just think absolute government distrust is a step too far, especially if you serve in the military.

Maybe some people learned it while in the military.

[ViperMan]

10 hours ago, Demonrat said:

I’ve been a long time lurker of these forums. I’ve always wanted to post to provide some different points of view from the white conservative Christian background/worldview that dominates these forums and the USAF pilot community as a whole.

However, it seems like it’s an exercise in futility and a massive waste of time. Nobody is going to change their mind on any topic no matter how convincing of an argument one puts forth. Emotional reactions like “it’s the beginning of the end for free speech in America” with zero substance galvanize the majority on this forum with any dissent summarily stamped out. These type of reactions are prevalent in all forms of social media, preventing constructive discourse and garnering reactions like “I can’t believe there are people who support the government deciding what is disinformation or not like in the book 1984 with the Ministry of Truth.”

The fact of the matter is that disinformation is a serious problem in all of society and something needs to be done to combat it, especially from external sources who are looking to cause harm in America. If you can verify the source as a Russian or Chinese internet troll, then the information should cease to exist. This is an extremely limited portion of the disinformation that is out there. Free speech stays free speech within America, but countering misuse of our First Amendment Rights by external governments looking to generate chaos in the US is a national priority.

I definitely share the concerns shown in this forum about government overreach, but I think a balance can be found with the proper authorities in place and a strong legal review of any actions taken by the organization. I think it’s better than doing nothing and letting malign actors slowly rip the fabric of US society apart. 

There's an unavoidable and fatal flaw to your approach, i.e. when "operatives" (trolls) promulgate true things. What then? Are you going to ban the actual truth because it's promoted by someone who has been classified as a troll? As soon as you adapt your approach, they'll adapt theirs. They'll sock-puppet the truth and now you're going to be on record suppressing it! Have fun with that. If something is true, it's true - it makes no difference who or what says it.

No, the futile thing is to attempt to control something that is so slippery as speech. If there is misinformation out there, there is information out there that can and will refute it. Sorry, this is a bad idea all the way down.

[FLEA]

7 hours ago, ViperMan said:

There's an unavoidable and fatal flaw to your approach, i.e. when "operatives" (trolls) promulgate true things. What then? Are you going to ban the actual truth because it's promoted by someone who has been classified as a troll? As soon as you adapt your approach, they'll adapt theirs. They'll sock-puppet the truth and now you're going to be on record suppressing it! Have fun with that. If something is true, it's true - it makes no difference who or what says it.

No, the futile thing is to attempt to control something that is so slippery as speech. If there is misinformation out there, there is information out there that can and will refute it. Sorry, this is a bad idea all the way down.

Honest question to Demonrat. 

 

Since the SCOTUS decision was illicitly leaked does that story comprise disinformation now that should be suppressed? Why isn't the media suppressing this like the Hunter Biden laptop or the Hilary Clinton emails? Shouldn't this be wiped from record until the election like those stories were? 

[ClearedHot]

23 hours ago, Demonrat said:

I just think absolute government distrust is a step too far, especially if you serve in the military.

The problem is the government continues to show a willingness to break the law and do what ever the F they want.  Breaking today The CDC reportedly monitored the location data of millions of phones

 

[Demonrat]

On 5/3/2022 at 7:23 PM, ViperMan said:

There's an unavoidable and fatal flaw to your approach, i.e. when "operatives" (trolls) promulgate true things. What then? Are you going to ban the actual truth because it's promoted by someone who has been classified as a troll? As soon as you adapt your approach, they'll adapt theirs. They'll sock-puppet the truth and now you're going to be on record suppressing it! Have fun with that. If something is true, it's true - it makes no difference who or what says it.

No, the futile thing is to attempt to control something that is so slippery as speech. If there is misinformation out there, there is information out there that can and will refute it. Sorry, this is a bad idea all the way down.

 

19 hours ago, FLEA said:

Honest question to Demonrat. 

 

Since the SCOTUS decision was illicitly leaked does that story comprise disinformation now that should be suppressed? Why isn't the media suppressing this like the Hunter Biden laptop or the Hilary Clinton emails? Shouldn't this be wiped from record until the election like those stories were? 

 

13 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

The problem is the government continues to show a willingness to break the law and do what ever the F they want.  Breaking today The CDC reportedly monitored the location data of millions of phones

 

You guys are right. I'm willing to change my point-of-view on this subject. I still think something needs to be done about disinformation because it's another significant crack in the foundation of American society, but the "Ministry of Truth" isn't the best way to get there. It's a problem where the solution is basically an overhaul of the education system, which probably isn't going to happen in our lifetime. Arguing on the internet may be pointless, but after seeing that my argument got to the point of being indefensible it was an easy call to make.

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Demonrat

[brabus]

9 hours ago, Demonrat said:

something needs to be done about disinformation

It’s extremely simple and has existed for a long time until relatively recent generations. Critical thought. It is very easy to read a headline, say “hmm, that’s an interesting topic, statement, etc.” and then proceed to put actual effort into unemotionally looking at multiple sources to derive the most accurate, well-informed assessment of said topic/statement. It’s what most of us learned growing up through primary and secondary education, but kids over the past 10 years or so have been systematically denied being taught that skill in public education. They have been taught what to think, not how to think. As for the older generations who lap up the bullshit, well they have unfortunately forgotten the lessons they were taught back in the day, and I don’t have an explanation for that. 
 

Bottom line, the solution is one that has already existed - bring back championing critical thought, teach and emphasize it to your kids and in the school system. Call people out for parroting a headline or other WOMs, call them to the carpet and ask them to provide evidence for their claims. But the fringes don’t want that, they want control of your thoughts and emotions to gain/maintain power. So what will win, a resurgence of critical thought in this country or the “thought leaders?” We all have the choice. 

[Lord Ratner]

On 4/29/2022 at 12:58 PM, ClearedHot said:

In what is perhaps the most dystopian thing Biden and his extremists have ever proposed it appears we will now have a Disinformation Czar that falls under the Department of Homeland Security.  Department of Homeland Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas announced that his agency is creating a “Disinformation Governance Board.”

Is anyone paying attention?  Does anyone care?  If you swore an oath to the Constitution you should be appalled and shocked.  The proposal gives this board the ability to regulate free speech, to take down websites, to control what the press reports.  For the record, previous organizations like this only existed in Russia, Nazi Germany, Iran and North Korea.  

The board will be led by Nina Jankowicz – a disinformation expert who has been criticized for repeatedly casting doubt on The Post’s reporting about Hunter Biden’s laptop.In October 2020, after The New York Post exposed damning emails and other information in Hunter Biden's laptop, Jankowicz scoffed and said “We should view it as a Trump campaign product.”  If she held this position two years ago not only would the laptop story have been crushed on Twitter and Facebook, she would have shut down the NY Post and Foxnews.

If this succeeds the Constitution is dead.

Please enjoy the Tik Tok this lunatic made!

[SurelySerious]

Three Friends Chatting: Steele Dossier Created from Gossip

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-surprising-backstory-of-how-the-steele-dossier-was-created-11652103582

Definitely want a government office deciding what’s real.

[FLEA]

One thing I've found particularly interesting about the recent SCOTUS opinion, the complete LACK of coverage on typically liberal CNN. Seriously, I check CNN daily for headlines and it has not headlined once on their website. 

 

When Chris Licht replaced Jeff Zucker as CEO he said CNN would be stepping back from politically polarizing content and I thought "haha, yeah ok." But I'm actually giving them the benefit of the doubt now. The vast majority of their web publishing has been focused and emphasized on Ukraine. There are Roe v Wade articles that generally lean left on CNN but they are down in the footers and usually don't get a photo or bold face. 

Is it possible some semblance of sanity is coming to the US? 

[ClearedHot]

Biden's new Ministry of Truth Czar says "Verified" people like her should be able to edit other users tweets.  She gets to decided what the truth is...

I know I know...trust the government, chew your cud citizen, all is well.

UFB

[arg]

2 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

Biden's new Ministry of Truth Czar says "Verified" people like her should be able to edit other users tweets.  She gets to decided what the truth is...

I know I know...trust the government, chew your cud citizen, all is well.

UFB

Or if Biden tweeted that vaccines were not available until he was in office. 

There's a target rich environment for the MoT right now but....crickets.....

[ViperMan]

4 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

Biden's new Ministry of Truth Czar says "Verified" people like her should be able to edit other users tweets.  She gets to decided what the truth is...

I know I know...trust the government, chew your cud citizen, all is well.

UFB

LOL the broads wearing masks on a zoom call.🤣