USAF Finally found a way to get rid of the A-10

[brabus]

I’d take the viper back in a heart beat for low threat CAS, but the F-35 is OK at it. Lack of delivery mode options and weapon options is ultimately what hinders it the most. Strap some LAUs on with forward firing ord and a sniper and you have a decent capability. But that also would be ludicrously retarded to do with an F-35. We have enough 4G and RW to do CAS, and if they can’t survive in situation X, CAS isn’t really happening anyways (not that the Army will comprehend that).

[pawnman]

8 hours ago, di1630 said:

Yeah, I’ll need to disagree with you here. IMO the F-35 is sh-t at CAS. Is it the poor CAS weapons choices? Is it the pilot vehicle interface? Is it the community not having a good understanding of CAS?

It’s all of the above.

I can’t think of really any CAS scenario I’d rather be in an F-35 vs an A-10 unless the CAS was specifically taking out air defenses which would make it more SEAD.

There's a big difference between "capable CAS platform" and "best CAS platform".

Sure, in a permissive environment, I'd prefer an A-10 overhead. But I'd take an F-35 over nothing. There aren't enough A-10s to provide CAS everywhere, all the time. The F-35 is good enough at it to step into the role when necessary. 

[Biff_T]

This was on reddit.

 

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, Biff_T said:

This was on reddit.

 

Just saw Donk talk about this mission to the group of AFROTC cadets graduating Field Training this week.  Pretty impressive stuff...he's lucky it was the start of the war...I could see this getting someone court martialed for the disregard for the ROE. Thank God he cared more about the guys on the ground than his own career.

[Biff_T]

14 hours ago, pawnman said:

Just saw Donk talk about this mission to the group of AFROTC cadets graduating Field Training this week.  Pretty impressive stuff...he's lucky it was the start of the war...I could see this getting someone court martialed for the disregard for the ROE. Thank God he cared more about the guys on the ground than his own career.

I was in KC-10s as a boom and flying in Iraq that day/night April 6th and 7th and we lost a receiver.  F-15E.  On that specific day I refueled a RC-135, a few flights of A-10s and one F-15E (looked in my log book).  We had to descend for some A-10s and I asked what they were up to.  The flight lead said "Do you see that dam down there?  We just took out a AAA peice on it".  My AC was a little concerned because we had to get pretty low for those guys.  

During the shock and awe portion if OIF I remember refueling A-10s, F-16s, F-15Es, Tornadoes, Harriers, and etc...Fully loaded.  

A lot of the time, the pilots would be breathing pretty heavily when they returned with their wings empty.  That was if you could hear them on the interphone.  

On one mission a viper guy told me they were "Killing guys in a graveyard".   It was a Full Metal Jacket moment for me lol.

I guess this is what they were up to in between refueling? 

Get some!

Edited August 14, 2022 by Biff_T
Updated

[Zero]

I'm glad that Donk and Billy Bob's sortie still stays in the forefront-- those two did a hell of a job that day.  There's a podcast out there with the two of them talking for a couple hours about the mission and its impacts.  I was in the 75th with them at that time, and I'm glad that they all got the recognition they deserved for the job they did that day.  

A funny story about the mission-- Billy Bob comes up to me and tells me that I need to see one of his passes from the sortie because he almost hit a bird while rolling in for a strafe pass.  Seemed a little odd, but we watched the tape a few times, and sure enough, that "bird" had a little orange burst of fire in the center of it... damn airburst right in front of him as he's down the chute.  Sobering moment to say the least... I think that coincided with the moment that the adrenaline had finally started to wear off from the mission.  

There's a painting in the 75th commemorating that mission, but there's a big problem with it-- it's TOO clear.  The visibility was absolute dogshit that day-- foggy, hazy, low ceilings... and a good deal of AAA to boot.  We watched some of the passes where BB is calling out the ground references that he knew would walk him to the target... and the tanks come out of the haze at damn near min range-- he's still on the trigger as the rounds are impacting almost immediately.  They did what they had to do.  And the JTAC controlling them that day was one of our pilots serving as a BnALO on the ground for the entire fight.  Great story all around.  

I don't remember the ROE discussion being a huge issue, or maybe that's just for a couple of reasons.  First, from the time we arrived in theater, our leadership made it very clear that they had our backs in the fight, so long as we could explain what and why we were doing something.  If we decided that we needed to hang it out for the guys on the ground and could explain ourselves, they'd go to the mat for us.  So there was that level of mutual support within the squadron that had come to be expected and established.  Second, Donk didn't make it a big issue-- he explained what he did and why he did it and he stood up straight willing to accept any decision that was made knowing that he had done what needed to be done in the moment, and they were successful doing it.  His combat leadership was unparalleled-- I'll never forget the speech he gave on the C-5 headed over.  Every senior officer on base had put in their two cents, and I couldn't tell you what they said just a few hours later.  I can still hear Donk's "We are going into harms'  way" speech almost 20 years later.  I clearly remember our Group Commander, Coach, getting on the bus and sending us off with one word.... "ATTACK!"  We were fortunate to have him as our DO, and Bino as our CC for that fight.  

Under their guidance was when we really coined and instituted the phrase "Shark Standard," which was more an expectation and a guiding challenge than it was a statement.  That phrase told you that you had a standard to live up to, not that you were automatically assumed to be the best or even worthy of it-- you had to prove it every day, in everything you did.  I like to think that we did, and it was because of leaders like that who not only set that standard, but lived it for all of us to see and try to follow and keep up with.  

Donk's one of those leaders who if he said we were trekking to the seventh level of Hell, I'd ask what time the brief was.  

That's the spirit of ATTACK.  

[di1630]

There's a big difference between "capable CAS platform" and "best CAS platform".
Sure, in a permissive environment, I'd prefer an A-10 overhead. But I'd take an F-35 over nothing. There aren't enough A-10s to provide CAS everywhere, all the time. The F-35 is good enough at it to step into the role when necessary. 

I’d tell the army to just write off the F-35 and use arty based on what I see.

There is so much USAF pro F-35 fanboy bad info out there such as “well in a high threat environment only an F-35 would be able to do CAS” spread by inept generals.

That’s crap. If it’s a high threat environment the F-35 will be doing SEAD until it’s low threat enough to do CAS…at which the F-35 sucks balls with wall to wall beast mode GBU-12s.

I’d much rather have block 30 vipers and A-10Cs doing the CAS with F-35s in support doing what it was designed to do well…SEAD.

I don’t want to be anywhere close to the passive AAA/Manpad CAS threat in the F-35. I’d rather stand-off and use sensors and help other survivable platforms hit targets.

[brabus]

There’s no realistic scenario where 4G is doing actual CAS and F-35s are required to do SEAD ISO those 4G. Ridiculous. The reality is it’s either low threat and 4G is doing 3-09.3/JFIRE, or they’re no where near the fight and the boys on the ground are well aware they’re unlikely to receive much traditional CAS support, if any, from the 5G guys they’re working with. 

[Biff_T]

2 hours ago, Zero said:

A funny story about the mission-- Billy Bob comes up to me and tells me that I need to see one of his passes from the sortie because he almost hit a bird while rolling in for a strafe pass.  Seemed a little odd, but we watched the tape a few times, and sure enough, that "bird" had a little orange burst of fire in the center of it... damn airburst right in front of him as he's down the chute.  Sobering moment to say the least... I think that coincided with the moment that the adrenaline had finally started to wear off from the mission.  

There's a painting in the 75th commemorating that mission, but there's a big problem with it-- it's TOO clear.  The visibility was absolute dogshit that day-- foggy, hazy, low ceilings... and a good deal of AAA to boot.  

I remember the fog.  Especially that night.

I'm glad those guys made it back.

Grunts of the sky!

[VMFA187]

On 8/12/2022 at 10:50 PM, di1630 said:

Yeah, I’ll need to disagree with you here. IMO the F-35 is sh-t at CAS. Is it the poor CAS weapons choices? Is it the pilot vehicle interface? Is it the community not having a good understanding of CAS?

It’s all of the above.

I can’t think of really any CAS scenario I’d rather be in an F-35 vs an A-10 unless the CAS was specifically taking out air defenses which would make it more SEAD.

I'd venture to say that a Marine F-35 squadron is more proficient at CAS than an AF F-35 squadron because it is something the organization takes pride in. 

[Danger41]

1 hour ago, VMFA187 said:

I'd venture to say that a Marine F-35 squadron is more proficient at CAS than an AF F-35 squadron because it is something the organization takes pride in. 

Pardon my ignorance, but are the various models mech’d any differently regarding avionics to support their core missions? IE - SEAD for USAF, CAS for USMC, landing for Navy?

[Lawman]

Pardon my ignorance, but are the various models mech’d any differently regarding avionics to support their core missions? IE - SEAD for USAF, CAS for USMC, landing for Navy?

Not so much an equipment as mission focus point he was making.

Talk to guys in Vietnam and the most effective platform for CAS was often times F-100s because that was consistently the mission set those guys spent developing. Hornet when it can on line had a very heavy Attack cadre come over from A7s that drove a lot of the “how we do business” in the community that has largely never left. I’m every conflict some communities focus on particular skill sets and a smart staff recognizes and uses that.

Even the Air Force acknowledges that close air support is a concentration same as SEAD or any other “don’t F this up or it’ll really hurt” mission sets. That’s why as part of workups prior to OEF/OIF deployment those Viper units slated to it would spent a lot more mission training sorties on CAS focused mission scenarios.

Marine aviation by default understand their position in the universe as there strictly to make the ground side of the MAGTF more effective and tailor their focus to that. At the Joint Planning level that means yes, they are assets to be apportioned, but send them to the missions they train to and they won’t get butt hurt about not getting some other cooler more glamorous mission set. They’d rather be dropping in support of their buddies on the ground than doing the big package to Tehran or something.


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[brabus]

40 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

IE - SEAD for USAF, CAS for USMC, landing for Navy?

I spit my bourbon out, dammit Danger! 

[brabus]

2 hours ago, VMFA187 said:

I'd venture to say that a Marine F-35 squadron is more proficient at CAS than an AF F-35 squadron because it is something the organization takes pride in. 

Maybe, but also if you’re an F-35 guy focusing on CAS, you’re fucking up. But the USMC should have never got F-35s in the first place, but that’s a separate discussion. So to be fair, the USMC bros are stuck in a super lame catch 22. 

[Lawman]

Maybe, but also if you’re an F-35 guy focusing on CAS, you’re ing up. But the USMC should have never got F-35s in the first place, but that’s a separate discussion. So to be fair, the USMC bros are stuck in a super lame catch 22. 

I mean… they didn’t originally want or ask for it.

This all stems back to the people in charge saying make a 5th Gen
plane that does everybody’s replacement requirement.

The Harrier follow on as conceived was a 4.5 Gen aircraft similar to the evolutionary progression like in the E/F Hornets. A new aircraft yes, but not so much a clean sheet design and damn sure not an L/O driven aircraft.


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[brabus]

Completely agree - it’s a spear at bureaucrats and acquisitions, not the bros. 

[di1630]

There’s no realistic scenario where 4G is doing actual CAS and F-35s are required to do SEAD ISO those 4G. Ridiculous. The reality is it’s either low threat and 4G is doing 3-09.3/JFIRE, or they’re no where near the fight and the boys on the ground are well aware they’re unlikely to receive much traditional CAS support, if any, from the 5G guys they’re working with. 

I’m not so sure. If I were doing MCO CAS in a hog/viper, I’d want F-35’s helping let me know if anything was out there so I could avoid or egress the AO. The ALR-69 is about 35 yrs past it’s prime.

[Blue]

2 hours ago, Lawman said:

The Harrier follow on as conceived was a 4.5 Gen aircraft similar to the evolutionary progression like in the E/F Hornets. A new aircraft yes, but not so much a clean sheet design and damn sure not an L/O driven aircraft.

This brings up an interesting question.  How far did planning get for the Harrier follow-on, before that effort was absorbed into the JSF one-plane-for-all concept?

Kinda curious what exactly the USMC had envisioned for their Harrier 2.0.

[Lawman]

This brings up an interesting question.  How far did planning get for the Harrier follow-on, before that effort was absorbed into the JSF one-plane-for-all concept?
Kinda curious what exactly the USMC had envisioned for their Harrier 2.0.

Nothing but vapor ware and hope as far as I’ve seen.

Keep in mind this was during the same period of time as A6F and A7F were being presented as ideas. So draw a cool picture of an existing plane, say glass cockpit and advanced power plant as many times as you can…

The GAO and others lampooned the AV-8B upgrade when it was compared to all the contemporary platforms it was operating along side with. It was a vast improvement from the A, but it was wholly a decade behind the rest of the aircraft in its peer group. Basically a what does this plane bring to the fight outside forward basing and shipboard flexibility, look at all the deficient problems related to performance etc…

So the Marines started pursuing a next Gen harrier AV-8E for simplicity of discussion … problem was since the mid 80s the Brits had pretty much washed their hands of seeking any sort of super advance in the Harrier design so the Marines already had finite dollars to pursue anything on their own hence why the AV-8Bs left a lot on the wish list as far as upgrades over the original pursuit. The Marines were exactly nowhere as far as moving forward with a replacement. Osprey was all consuming as far as their budget. Meanwhile the Navy had JAST and the Air Force JFX viper program was coming along well. Marines already fly Navy planes… mash the two together and get on board so to speak.


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[VMFA187]

13 hours ago, Lawman said:

Marine aviation by default understand their position in the universe as there strictly to make the ground side of the MAGTF more effective and tailor their focus to that. At the Joint Planning level that means yes, they are assets to be apportioned, but send them to the missions they train to and they won’t get butt hurt about not getting some other cooler more glamorous mission set. They’d rather be dropping in support of their buddies on the ground than doing the big package to Tehran or something.


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Hey! I wanted to paint a star on my jet as much as any other dude! But thank you, you made my point more eloquently than I did. 

13 hours ago, brabus said:

Maybe, but also if you’re an F-35 guy focusing on CAS, you’re fucking up. But the USMC should have never got F-35s in the first place, but that’s a separate discussion. So to be fair, the USMC bros are stuck in a super lame catch 22. 

I'm not arguing with you - You're right. But we are rapidly leaving the 4th generation fighter game and we still have to support our Marines on the ground. So we make due with what we have. 

[VMFA187]

A Rhino variant would have made the most sense certainly. Simple transition for the legacy Hornet pilots and maintain the relationship with the Navy. 

[brabus]

7 hours ago, di1630 said:

I’m not so sure. If I were doing MCO CAS in a hog/viper, I’d want F-35’s helping let me know if anything was out there so I could avoid or egress the AO. The ALR-69 is about 35 yrs past it’s prime.

If vipers, growlers, and/or arty can’t provide effective SEAD in hypothetical X situation, hogs and vipers aren’t doing CAS. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by brabus

[Clark Griswold]

Another excellent discussion on WC’s channel, posted here to get comment on the Ukrainian MiG 29 domestically produced MU2 ground attack variant and Gripen as a fighter type to be supplied (potentially) to Ukraine

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[Clayton Bigsby]

On 8/8/2022 at 8:22 PM, uhhello said:

Ground launched

Maybe not?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukrainian-mig-29s-are-firing-agm-88-anti-radiation-missiles

[Lawman]

Maybe not?
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukrainian-mig-29s-are-firing-agm-88-anti-radiation-missiles

I’m hearing from a friend apparently we’ve always known how to do this.

Apparently it was figured out with the Luftwaffe Fulcrums post the wall coming down. Guess somebody just found the old copy of the book.


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