Nordstream pipeline sabotage?

[Prozac]

3 hours ago, torqued said:

I love my country and I truly appreciate the service of everyone who wants to defend it.

Then maybe consider not re-posting the adversary’s propaganda. You don’t like the current politicians running the country. Fine. You don’t like them so much you’re willing to amplify Russian propaganda (Don’t fool yourself. That’s EXACTLY what you’re doing.)? Not fine. You’re falling into the Russian trap. You know, the one where they amplify our political and cultural differences & try to convince us that the real enemy is the hipster in the pussy hat or the neighbor with the gun collection and not the belligerent dictator seizing land & committing atrocities overseas?  Putin’s an ocean away after all. What threat could he possibly be to us when we have so many existential threats right in our own neighborhoods?  
 

Standing by for downvotes from the usual suspects…

[gearhog]

1 hour ago, Prozac said:

Then maybe consider not re-posting the adversary’s propaganda. You don’t like the current politicians running the country. Fine. You don’t like them so much you’re willing to amplify Russian propaganda (Don’t fool yourself. That’s EXACTLY what you’re doing.)? Not fine. You’re falling into the Russian trap. You know, the one where they amplify our political and cultural differences & try to convince us that the real enemy is the hipster in the pussy hat or the neighbor with the gun collection and not the belligerent dictator seizing land & committing atrocities overseas?  Putin’s an ocean away after all. What threat could he possibly be to us when we have so many existential threats right in our own neighborhoods?  
 

Standing by for downvotes from the usual suspects…

If a person doesn’t blindly and dutifully fall in line with the official government narrative (one that continuously demonstrates it’s ability to screw up), they’re parroting Russian propaganda. 
 

Every troublesome domestic issue isn’t a real issue or concern, but the evil machinations of a foreign propaganda arm that permeates every facet of our society, but can’t win a battle in its own backyard or even convince its own citizens to fight the West.
 

sounds reasonable.
 

Those are awfully convenient positions to take as they allow for no critical thinking, no dissent, no questions. A familiar tactic of late.  Who is falling into whose trap?
 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by torqued

[GrndPndr]

The inner eight-year-old in me wants to pop some flares over these things.  I'm sure that's too danger close though.

[HeyEng]

51 minutes ago, GrndPndr said:

The inner eight-year-old in me wants to pop some flares over these things.  I'm sure that's too danger close though.

They said that the pipeline was not active so I wonder what’s bubbling out, maybe pressurized with inert gas or something to keep any seawater out?

[tac airlifter]

6 hours ago, Prozac said:

Then maybe consider not re-posting the adversary’s propaganda. You don’t like the current politicians running the country. Fine. You don’t like them so much you’re willing to amplify Russian propaganda (Don’t fool yourself. That’s EXACTLY what you’re doing.)? Not fine. You’re falling into the Russian trap. You know, the one where they amplify our political and cultural differences & try to convince us that the real enemy is the hipster in the pussy hat or the neighbor with the gun collection and not the belligerent dictator seizing land & committing atrocities overseas?  Putin’s an ocean away after all. What threat could he possibly be to us when we have so many existential threats right in our own neighborhoods?  
 

Standing by for downvotes from the usual suspects…

I don’t understand your point, perhaps you could elaborate on what subjects are and are not off-limits to discuss?

Critical thinking and questioning the official narrative and listening to enemy propaganda would have helped our nation slow down the rush to war in Iraq circa 2003, and potentially have prevented that entire useless catastrophe.  Of note, the “enemy propaganda” that they had no WMD turned out to be true.  And our CIA expert analysis was false.  

Putin is a dictator, war criminal, and prolific propagandist.  But when something strange happens in the world, there’s nothing wrong with asking a few questions.  I guess I am a free-speech extremist.

[ecugringo]

1 hour ago, HeyEng said:

They said that the pipeline was not active so I wonder what’s bubbling out, maybe pressurized with inert gas or something to keep any seawater out?

It was full of natural gas.  You don’t leave pipelines empty. You’ll get moisture and corrosion.

 

[ecugringo]

1 hour ago, tac airlifter said:

I don’t understand your point, perhaps you could elaborate on what subjects are and are not off-limits to discuss?

Critical thinking and questioning the official narrative and listening to enemy propaganda would have helped our nation slow down the rush to war in Iraq circa 2003, and potentially have prevented that entire useless catastrophe.  Of note, the “enemy propaganda” that they had no WMD turned out to be true.  And our CIA expert analysis was false.  

Putin is a dictator, war criminal, and prolific propagandist.  But when something strange happens in the world, there’s nothing wrong with asking a few questions.  I guess I am a free-speech extremist.

I believe you should always question things.

as you said gulf war 2 and wmd’s, gulf of Tonkin etc…I can’t understand how 1 party can question conflict then blindly follow domestic orders. (Covid) and vice versa.

also….don’t forget a few years ago russia hacked the colonial pipeline and shut it down.  That line is the main artery for fuel on the east coast.  A lot more damage could have been done.

[Prozac]

1 hour ago, tac airlifter said:

I don’t understand your point, perhaps you could elaborate on what subjects are and are not off-limits to discuss?

Critical thinking and questioning the official narrative and listening to enemy propaganda would have helped our nation slow down the rush to war in Iraq circa 2003, and potentially have prevented that entire useless catastrophe.  Of note, the “enemy propaganda” that they had no WMD turned out to be true.  And our CIA expert analysis was false.  

Putin is a dictator, war criminal, and prolific propagandist.  But when something strange happens in the world, there’s nothing wrong with asking a few questions.  I guess I am a free-speech extremist.

Free speech is great. You can say whatever you like. It’s a two way street though so don’t get all butthurt when someone calls you out on your bullshit. I stand by my assertion that amplifying enemy propaganda is not something that someone who loves their country generally does. I personally do not consider baseless accusations of one’s own country committing an act of war during a time of great international tension to be just “asking a few questions”. 

[tac airlifter]

5 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Free speech is great. You can say whatever you like. It’s a two way street though so don’t get all butthurt when someone calls you out on your bullshit. 

You could use a relaxing cocktail.🥃

Personally I don’t think we did it.  But it’s noteworthy that many NATO officers think we did.  

[Prozac]

6 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

You could use a relaxing cocktail.🥃

On the agenda. Cheers! 🍻 

[HeyEng]

NATO is saying it was (no surprise) sabotage! 
https://youtu.be/z5rRZdiu1UE

[Standby]

1 hour ago, HeyEng said:

NATO is saying it was (no surprise) sabotage! 
https://youtu.be/z5rRZdiu1UE

That is probably my favorite music video of all time…thanks for the smile dude. 

[gearhog]

3 hours ago, Prozac said:

Free speech is great. You can say whatever you like. It’s a two way street though so don’t get all butthurt when someone calls you out on your bullshit. I stand by my assertion that amplifying enemy propaganda is not something that someone who loves their country generally does. I personally do not consider baseless accusations of one’s own country committing an act of war during a time of great international tension to be just “asking a few questions”. 

How is it some of you still cannot distinguish between a criticism of an entire country and a tiny portion of it's leadership? That's a bad question, because I know you can, and you are intentionally being disingenuous by conflating the two. It's similar to how real propaganda actually works.

If someone were to be "amplifying" Russian propaganda, then Russia would have been the originator of said propaganda. After reading your post, I honestly went looking for Russia's claims the the US had sabotaged the pipeline. I found two things:

- A Russian official said that any claim they had sabotaged their own pipeline was "stupid".

- Russia asked Biden to clarify who actually destroyed the Nordstream 2.

Maybe you can find something more propagandaish.

Aside from my initial sarcasm, my other posts regarding this topic were just factual reports by Western media. Put them side by side, and it doesn't take any logical gymnastics to form a reasonable hypothesis that maybe it wasn't Russia.

Do you honestly think what we're experiencing is "great international tension" and not a war? What did we just spend another $12 Billion United States Dollars on yet again today? Diplomacy?

Consider that I, and others, are giving you a mere hypothesis substantiated with factual information from Western sources, but yet you're not able to provide anything other than effectively crossing your arms, shaking your head, and saying "Nuh-uhh, you just hate your country."

Edited September 30, 2022 by torqued

[Standby]

26 minutes ago, torqued said:

How is it some of you still cannot distinguish between a criticism of an entire country and a tiny portion of it's leadership? That's a bad question, because I know you can, and you are intentionally being disingenuous by conflating the two. It's similar to how real propaganda actually works.

If someone were to be "amplifying" Russian propaganda, then Russia would have been the originator of said propaganda. After reading your post, I honestly went looking for Russia's claims the the US had sabotaged the pipeline. I found two things:

- A Russian official said that any claim they had sabotaged their own pipeline was "stupid".

- Russia asked Biden to clarify who actually destroyed the Nordstream 2.

Maybe you can find something more propagandaish.

Aside from my initial sarcasm, my other posts regarding this topic were just factual reports by Western media. Put them side by side, and it doesn't take any logical gymnastics to form a reasonable hypothesis that maybe it wasn't Russia.

Do you honestly think what we're experiencing is "great international tension" and not a war? What did we just spend another $12 Billion United States Dollars on yet again today? Diplomacy?

Consider that I, and others, are giving you a mere hypothesis substantiated with factual information from Western sources, but yet you're not able to provide anything other than effectively crossing your arms, shaking your head, and saying "Nuh-uhh, you just hate your country."

I’m not sure why you’re catching flak. On record, POTUS says we will end NS2 if Russia invades Ukraine with tanks and troops. Russia invaded, and the pipeline is now inoperative. Why are people implying that the US is incapable of following up on that threat? Furthermore, why are people saying torqued is buying Russian propaganda? Was Biden deep-faked in that press conference?

[DirkDiggler]

15 hours ago, torqued said:

Brother, I get it. I'm not rooting for Russia and Putin. They're absolutely shitty. But I never was in danger of living under a Russian totalitarian state.

What I am concerned about is truth, deception, righteousness, and minimizing the loss of life. I love my country and I truly appreciate the service of everyone who wants to defend it. But what enemies are we sworn to defend it against?

It is uncomfortable to consider that my side, the good guys, could possibly be involved in making poor decisions that result in a worse end state. But I also can't turn a blind eye to the fact our current leadership has fucked up nearly every issue it's faced with. This current leadership engages in relentless propaganda and deceit surrounding the pandemic, the economy, our justice system, democracy, AFGHANISTAN?.

I don't want to believe that we or our allies would risk escalating conflict and plunging millions of european citizens into insecurity and a dramatically reduced standard of living for an unpopular agenda, but the trends indicate otherwise.

I simply don't know... but the probability certainly isn't zero.

  With any luck that new RAND corporation look alike whose reports you found so interesting in the Russia-Ukraine thread will publish a paper confirming that the US is indeed responsible.  One can further hope that they tie it to whatever the global Monkeypox conspiracy currently is and we can revive that thread over in the Squadron Bar.

  FWIW, I've read several convincing reports on the dark web claiming that Jurgen Procknow has re-joined the Kriegsmarine and is gunning for one last shot at glory.  Lotta people are speculating he hit the pipeline since he's old and doesn't drive so great anymore.  It'd be pretty tough to get him down the ladder of the conning tower at his age but let's be real, you just can't replicate that experience level. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by DirkDiggler
Clarity

[HeloDude]

I always believe the Federal government and also believe it would never intentionally lie to our faces…

 

[DirkDiggler]

Security Implications of Nord Stream Sabotage | Center for Strategic and International Studies (csis.org)

  

[gearhog]

2 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

  With any luck that new RAND corporation look alike whose reports you found so interesting in the Russia-Ukraine thread will publish a paper confirming that the US is indeed responsible.  One can further hope that they tie it to whatever the global Monkeypox conspiracy currently is and we can revive that thread over in the Squadron Bar.

  FWIW, I've read several convincing reports on the dark web claiming that Jurgen Procknow has re-joined the Kriegsmarine and is gunning for one last shot at glory.  Lotta people are speculating he hit the pipeline since he's old and doesn't drive so great anymore.  It'd be pretty tough to get him down the ladder of the conning tower at his age but let's be real, you just can't replicate that experience level. 

That wasn't interesting to you? I agree it was likely fake and I made no claims to it's authenticity. I just said it was making the rounds in German media and thought it contained some interesting concepts. Because I knew it couldn't be verified, I immediately followed it up with an actual RAND report to similar effect from the RAND website which you conveniently forgot to mention.

Monkeypox? Oh, yeah... I remember that. Thanks, you just gave me a thought: Isn't it incredibly fascinating how the entire thing simply vanished into thin air, with a day or two, after the official narrative was called into question and subsequently ridiculed and mocked by countless people across social media and forums like this? Obviously, all those people hated America. I'm going to go ahead and take a little bit of credit for that. You're welcome. I take it you somehow escaped infection.

As for the rest of your attempted insult, I have no idea what you're wasting keystrokes on. Quick question: would you mind pointing me in the direction of an original thought you've had here that isn't just repeating an official narrative? No? Then don't forget to tilt your head back and relax your throat for the next WH press briefing.

😄

Please don't take this post personally. I just had a couple beers with dinner and I think you're hilarious. All in fun.

Edited September 30, 2022 by torqued

[gearhog]

35 minutes ago, DirkDiggler said:

Security Implications of Nord Stream Sabotage | Center for Strategic and International Studies (csis.org)

  

On a serious note, you should check out the financials and board members for CSIS.

Try to look in the mirror and say "There is no bias or conflict of interest here" with a straight face.

[ViperMan]

I recently listened to a podcast hosted by the Federalist (right wing), and I was startled by the nonchalance John Davidson was able to claim the US sabotaged the pipeline. He did so without evidence (https://www.spreaker.com/user/10614200/populism-keeps-surging-across-the-west). I posted the link for reference, not as a recommendation to listen to it. Don't. I consider(ed?) the Federalist a legitimate source (albeit right wing), but needless to say, I'll be far more suspect of what else I hear come from them going forward.

Why I bring it up is because I see the same thing from some on this message board, and from many others on the right side of the isle (which I am part of). I find this highly incongruent, actually. In my view, this default position has less to do with the goodness or badness of the action per se, and much more to do with the fact that it's being carried out by the Biden administration and is therefore necessarily wrong.

19 hours ago, torqued said:

It is uncomfortable to consider that my side, the good guys, could possibly be involved in making poor decisions that result in a worse end state. But I also can't turn a blind eye to the fact our current leadership has fucked up nearly every issue it's faced with. This current leadership engages in relentless propaganda and deceit surrounding the pandemic, the economy, our justice system, democracy, AFGHANISTAN?.

I don't want to believe that we or our allies would risk escalating conflict and plunging millions of european citizens into insecurity and a dramatically reduced standard of living for an unpopular agenda, but the trends indicate otherwise.

I simply don't know... but the probability certainly isn't zero.

Get over it. Putin is the one making threats. Not Europe. Not Biden. Not the USA. Not Trump. Pick your side. Your fear of "risking escalation" strengthens Putin's ability to escalate. Want to see him STFU? Next time he makes a nuclear threat, we indicate we will respond in kind on behalf of Ukraine.

Fuck it, let's say we did blow it up: Putin threatens to cut off Europe from gas as strategic leverage, and we blow the pipeline up, thereby taking away his ability to leverage acquiescence from European governments, you know, a "burn the fleet" "shoot the hostage" type of logic. Fairly brilliant if you ask me. Maybe we should blow up NS1 in a couple months. Followed by others as time goes on. Maybe Putin will start to realize that oil flows in one direction, but money flows in the other.

Yes, the administration is incompetent, has lost all SA, and seems to be doing its best to drive wedges wherever they can. And yeah, on about 99.9% (repeating of course) of issues, they've made objectively bad decisions. Be that as it may, it doesn't necessarily mean everything they do is wrong by default - all things and decisions should be judged according to their own merit, and in the case of the Russian war in Ukraine, we are doing good things, notwithstanding the likely fact that our spectacle of retreat in Afghanistan probably signaled to Putin (et al) that now would be a good time to get started with those war plans - but that's another discussion. That is what I think is a blind spot on the right - the unwillingness to give any credit even in places where it may be due. Lest we forget, this war started before the current admin was in power.

No one on this message board knows - or ever will know - exactly what happened or who sabotaged the pipeline. Unless you're someone special, that is a fact. Another fact is that in each of us there is something that wants the world to be like a Tom Clancy movie - with clear cut lines of conspiracy and wrong doing. That fact is really what drives such strong opinions on matters like this, because in all truth not one of us knows. You don't know because you typed some URL in your interweb browser and read someone else's opinion/analysis.

For my part, I strongly, strongly discount the possibility we did it, if for no other reason than the risk/reward ratio is way, way too high. The payoff? Very little. The potential cost if it was discovered that we unilaterally destroyed the pipeline? Well, we just achieved one of Putin's major objectives by getting NATO to act against itself. It's so unlikely, it's crazy and conspiratorial to consider it a possibility, given these realities. Insane even.

The chances Putin did it? Nearly 100%. It lets him generate propaganda within and outside his country, and if it is ever discovered for certain that he did blow it up, well there are no political consequences because it belonged to him anyway. So there is a far higher payoff to risk ratio on his side as far as I can tell.

All in all, I don't really care. We probably didn't do it, but if we did, I'm fine with it because it ultimately takes away leverage Putin thought he had.

Putin is wrong. We are right. He should stop. It's that simple.

[gearhog]

Nicely written. Best counter-argument here. I don't necessarily agree with the probabilities you're assigning to the unknowns, but you're making some good points. I'll have to digest it a little.

[HeyEng]

From a purely analytical perspective, the choice of location is interesting. It’s points to a sophisticated underwater special operation under the noses of various NATO anti-submarine defenses, and makes any future repair difficult.

If I were Putin, I would have staged an operation on land and then blame it on Ukrainians, Refuseniks, Ursula Von Der Leyen, Pu**y Riot, or any of Putin’s enemy of the week.

Edited September 30, 2022 by HeyEng
Riot was a band in Russia that got in trouble with the Russian government and and several members were arrested.

[BashiChuni]

Trust the experts! 😉 

[BashiChuni]

6 hours ago, ViperMan said:

Another fact is that in each of us there is something that wants the world to be like a Tom Clancy movie - with clear cut lines of conspiracy and wrong doing. 

 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, ViperMan said:

Putin is wrong. We are right. 

 

[DirkDiggler]

10 hours ago, torqued said:

That wasn't interesting to you? I agree it was likely fake and I made no claims to it's authenticity. I just said it was making the rounds in German media and thought it contained some interesting concepts. Because I knew it couldn't be verified, I immediately followed it up with an actual RAND report to similar effect from the RAND website which you conveniently forgot to mention.

Monkeypox? Oh, yeah... I remember that. Thanks, you just gave me a thought: Isn't it incredibly fascinating how the entire thing simply vanished into thin air, with a day or two, after the official narrative was called into question and subsequently ridiculed and mocked by countless people across social media and forums like this? Obviously, all those people hated America. I'm going to go ahead and take a little bit of credit for that. You're welcome. I take it you somehow escaped infection.

As for the rest of your attempted insult, I have no idea what you're wasting keystrokes on. Quick question: would you mind pointing me in the direction of an original thought you've had here that isn't just repeating an official narrative? No? Then don't forget to tilt your head back and relax your throat for the next WH press briefing.

😄

Please don't take this post personally. I just had a couple beers with dinner and I think you're hilarious. All in fun.

  Ha!!  Your original post (before you edited it) might be one of the strangest flexes I've seen on Baseops in a hot minute.  So you've been around a while, knew the founder of Baseops, have had lots of conversations, and probably knew BQZip's mom.  Cool story Hansel.

  In regards to "original thoughts" Tucker Carlson's show on 28 Sep and the American Conservative (just to name a few) both drove the narrative that the US did this.  I'm sure you thought of it first though.

  I had no idea that the center of resistance to the global monkeypox conspiracy was right here on Baseops forums.  Learn something new everyday.  One can only hope that with this experience we'll be better prepared for the next global elite disease conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids (or whatever that one was supposedly about).

  I'll leave it there with what I think is currently the funniest (but not my favorite) conspiracy theory out there.