E-8 through E-9 in the CAF...what do they do?

[filthy_liar]

Have you guys in the CAF experienced positive results from the 8's and 9's in your organization?  My experience was that if they never showed up to work at all a better decision would've been made that day.  That's from the squadron all the way up to the MAJCOM.  I spent a 3rd of my career on Army bases and while there were some worthless E-9s, some of them were pretty damn helpful at accomplishing the mission.  I personally never met one E-8 or E-9 in the AF whose pay fairly equated to what they contributed.

Not questioning the MAF or support folks because an immediate flaming about how valuable senior NCOs are would ensue.  I saw it at SOS.  And at ACSC.  A long time ago.  The question is for CAF pilots/aircrew.

[lloyd christmas]

I have a couple questions for you.  

What do you think of the work that the E-1 to E-7s do?  

What prompted this post and is it tied to a specific recent experience that you can describe?  

[filthy_liar]

7 minutes ago, lloyd christmas said:

I have a couple questions for you.  

What do you think of the work that the E-1 to E-7s do?  

What prompted this post and is it tied to a specific recent experience that you can describe?  

lloyd, fair question.  For your first question, I found value in E-1s through MSgt.  For the most part.  After that, whenever I was trying to get new equipment or justify a larger budget, or expand a mission set, hand out discipline or maintain morale - it was always a zebra that ed things up.  Never my group or wing commander (except for discipline...the WG was always breathing down my neck for those).  The last few years of my career I started asking the question...why are these senior E's bothering me about my mission. What do these folks actually do?  

For your second question, not a recent experience.  I retired in 2015.  

 

[12xu2a3x3]

58 minutes ago, filthy_liar said:

Have you guys in the CAF experienced positive results from the 8's and 9's in your organization?  My experience was that if they never showed up to work at all a better decision would've been made that day.  That's from the squadron all the way up to the MAJCOM.  I spent a 3rd of my career on Army bases and while there were some worthless E-9s, some of them were pretty damn helpful at accomplishing the mission.  I personally never met one E-8 or E-9 in the AF whose pay fairly equated to what they contributed.

Not questioning the MAF or support folks because an immediate flaming about how valuable senior NCOs are would ensue.  I saw it at SOS.  And at ACSC.  A long time ago.  The question is for CAF pilots/aircrew.

no lol

[uhhello]

What a ignorant statement painted with a Air Force wide brush.  For every terrible SNCO, there are the equivalent terrible (who wield greater power) field grade officers percentage wise.  

[lloyd christmas]

1 hour ago, filthy_liar said:

lloyd, fair question.  For your first question, I found value in E-1s through MSgt.  For the most part.  After that, whenever I was trying to get new equipment or justify a larger budget, or expand a mission set, hand out discipline or maintain morale - it was always a zebra that ed things up.  Never my group or wing commander (except for discipline...the WG was always breathing down my neck for those).  The last few years of my career I started asking the question...why are these senior E's bothering me about my mission. What do these folks actually do?  

For your second question, not a recent experience.  I retired in 2015.  

It sounds like your career ran from roughly 1995 to 2015.  There were definitely some really shitty AF leaders during those years.  

I don’t have any opinions on you trying to get new equipment, justifying a larger budget or expanding mission sets.  I wasn’t there so I can’t speak to the unique challenges that folks in your organization faced.

However, “maintaining morale” and “handing out discipline” is something I think I can speak to.  It’s helpful to remember that the Es like to handle that stuff in house.  When it comes to maintaining morale there is often a disconnect in what the Es are interested in and what the Os are interested in.  A lot of times it comes down to what the younger Es can afford.  IRT discipline, it’s sometimes best to let the Es handle it and let the Os have plausible deniability. 

I often remind myself that, as Es, we are not only leading our folks, we are raising young men and women.  The officers have completed college, gone through a commissioning process and are typically older.  That is completely different than getting a 19 year dude/dudette that just graduated HS.  They are often immature and most have just left home for the first time.

I say all of this to hopefully help you with better memories of the enlisted leaders that you served with.  They had very different challenges, responsibilities and goals than you did (assuming you were an officer).

Cheers

Edited November 2, 2022 by lloyd christmas

[filthy_liar]

36 minutes ago, lloyd christmas said:

It sounds like your career ran from roughly 1995 to 2015.  There were definitely some really shitty AF leaders during those years.  

I don’t have any opinions on you trying to get new equipment, justifying a larger budget or expanding mission sets.  I wasn’t there so I can’t speak to the unique challenges that folks in your organization faced.

However, “maintaining morale” and “handing out discipline” is something I think I can speak to.  It’s helpful to remember that the Es like to handle that stuff in house.  When it comes to maintaining morale there is often a disconnect in what the Es are interested in and what the Os are interested in.  A lot of times it comes down to what the younger Es can afford.  IRT discipline, it’s sometimes best to let the Es handle it and let the Os have plausible deniability. 

I often remind myself that, as Es, we are not only leading our folks, we are raising young men and women.  The officers have completed college, gone through a commissioning process and are typically older.  That is completely different than getting a 19 year dude/dudette that just graduated HS.  They are often immature and most have just left home for the first time.

I say all of this to hopefully help you with better memories of the enlisted leaders that you served with.  They had very different challenges, responsibilities and goals than you did (assuming you were an officer).

Cheers

Good post lloyd.  And spot on the dates.  Enlisted was 89-93.

 

[filthy_liar]

Not to put you on the spot, but can you tell me what an E8 or E9 did in the CAF?

 

[FLEA]

I've seen good ones and I've seen bad ones. Like most positions of trust, the best ones were though who never wanted to be there but were put there anyway, and then stood up and took responsibility anyway. 

The best ones violently advocated for their juniors, and for enlisted in general. They ensured that our expensive visits to the NTTR weren't just to train our ABMs or EWOs, but also our 1A3s or 1A8s. Likewise, they often tried to filter pay issues and mpf issues themselves before the CC needed to get involved. Sometimes this meant putting on an angry face and putting boots up asses. The REALLY REALLY good ones also found creative ways to mentor CGOs without appearing to be in their chili. Just subtle comments, or inputs. Nothing overbearing, and very very nuanced. I never felt like I wasnt in control with these ones but rather was reassured I was making the correct decisions. 

[Lockjaw]

Keep in mind that there are flyers with the grade of E-9 in the CAF. Like anyone else with the rank, there are some who are Chiefs and some who are E-9s. As FLEA has mentioned, the good ones are truly an asset for the enlisted (and squadron overall) and can make the lives of the CC/DO/ADO easier. If not, it's just the opposite.

[Sua Sponte]

A good majority of E-9s in the boom operator careerfield are E-9s, not Chiefs.

[pawnman]

We had several awesome chiefs at Dyess that knew how to get shit done. 

[Danger41]

18 hours ago, filthy_liar said:

Not to put you on the spot, but can you tell me what an E8 or E9 did in the CAF?

 

 Not to put you on the spot, but what did you do in the CAF?

[Biff_T]

4 hours ago, Danger41 said:

 Not to put you on the spot, but what did you do in the CAF?

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Biff_T
Thank you FLEA

[FLEA]

36 minutes ago, Biff_T said:

 

This made it fucking worth my time friend. 

[Prosuper]

The current batch of E-8's and E-9's, saw it when I retired in 2003 E-7, is the fault of the Flag officers who wanted Senior E's who got there like they did. Didn't want crusty Chiefs anymore behind closed doors telling them that their policy is crap. When I started in 1981, we only had only had a CMSAF and a bunch of senior enlisted advisors, all were Viet Nam vets or actually helped Lemay at the auto hobby shop on Offutt. Saw the change after Desert Storm, the Senior E's who didn't go started to make life hard on the guys who did. The Espirit De Corp after the storm in ops and mx was through the roof and was destroyed by peace dividend. So, the guys who sat on the boards discounted wartime deployed experience and chose special duty, how many duty titles they had, etc. I read Chief Bass's bio, can't figure out what her AFSC was.  

[uhhello]

5 minutes ago, Prosuper said:

The current batch of E-8's and E-9's, saw it when I retired in 2003 E-7, is the fault of the Flag officers who wanted Senior E's who got there like they did. Didn't want crusty Chiefs anymore behind closed doors telling them that their policy is crap. When I started in 1981, we only had only had a CMSAF and a bunch of senior enlisted advisors, all were Viet Nam vets or actually helped Lemay at the auto hobby shop on Offutt. Saw the change after Desert Storm, the Senior E's who didn't go started to make life hard on the guys who did. The Espirit De Corp after the storm in ops and mx was through the roof and was destroyed by peace dividend. So, the guys who sat on the boards discounted wartime deployed experience and chose special duty, how many duty titles they had, etc. I read Chief Bass's bio, can't figure out what her AFSC was.  

I'm assuming you've had interaction with the "current batch" since 2003?  

[FLEA]

10 minutes ago, uhhello said:

I'm assuming you've had interaction with the "current batch" since 2003?  

LMAO.... probably because they all just retired and showed up at his VFW this year. 

[uhhello]

8 minutes ago, FLEA said:

LMAO.... probably because they all just retired and showed up at his VFW this year. 

I think if I remember he is currently working with active duty.  Just can't remember what.  

[Sua Sponte]

10 hours ago, Prosuper said:

The current batch of E-8's and E-9's, saw it when I retired in 2003 E-7, is the fault of the Flag officers who wanted Senior E's who got there like they did. Didn't want crusty Chiefs anymore behind closed doors telling them that their policy is crap. When I started in 1981, we only had only had a CMSAF and a bunch of senior enlisted advisors, all were Viet Nam vets or actually helped Lemay at the auto hobby shop on Offutt. Saw the change after Desert Storm, the Senior E's who didn't go started to make life hard on the guys who did. The Espirit De Corp after the storm in ops and mx was through the roof and was destroyed by peace dividend. So, the guys who sat on the boards discounted wartime deployed experience and chose special duty, how many duty titles they had, etc. I read Chief Bass's bio, can't figure out what her AFSC was.  

She’s a 1C0, SARM.

[brabus]

For every useless “chief” there’s an equally useless O-6+. I don’t get the feeling MAJCOM, CAF vs. MAF, etc. really changes that in any appreciable way. Generally it seems when dudes go E-8/O-6+, many get that fabled “lobotomy,” and only a few remain mission-oriented bros. The guard is far better than AD with this subject.

[M2]

19 hours ago, Prosuper said:

The current batch of E-8's and E-9's, saw it when I retired in 2003 E-7, is the fault of the Flag officers who wanted Senior E's who got there like they did. Didn't want crusty Chiefs anymore behind closed doors telling them that their policy is crap. When I started in 1981, we only had only had a CMSAF and a bunch of senior enlisted advisors, all were Viet Nam vets or actually helped Lemay at the auto hobby shop on Offutt. Saw the change after Desert Storm, the Senior E's who didn't go started to make life hard on the guys who did. The Espirit De Corp after the storm in ops and mx was through the roof and was destroyed by peace dividend. So, the guys who sat on the boards discounted wartime deployed experience and chose special duty, how many duty titles they had, etc. I read Chief Bass's bio, can't figure out what her AFSC was.  

I also started in 1981 and can attest to this.  Chiefs then were Chiefs, and practically all wore Vietnam service ribbons amongst other awards.  It spoiled me as a young E-1.   I watched those "old school" chiefs disappear over the years as they retired and moved on, and in their place were mostly politically correct, tow-the-line SNCOs who were mirrored images of the officers.  Hell, most won't even cuss these days in fears of offending some airman!   What made the USAF great during those years was officers were officers, and Chiefs were Chiefs, and each complimented each other.  Now it's tough to tell the difference!

And just to pre-empt the expected replies, anyone who uses the term "boomer" will earn a 30-day suspension!  😁😁😁

[dream big]

9 hours ago, M2 said:

I also started in 1981 and can attest to this.  Chiefs then were Chiefs, and practically all wore Vietnam service ribbons amongst other awards.  It spoiled me as a young E-1.   I watched those "old school" chiefs disappear over the years as they retired and moved on, and in their place were mostly politically correct, tow-the-line SNCOs who were mirrored images of the officers.  Hell, most won't even cuss these days in fears of offending some airman!   What made the USAF great during those years was officers were officers, and Chiefs were Chiefs, and each complimented each other.  Now it's tough to tell the difference!

And just to pre-empt the expected replies, anyone who uses the term "boomer" will earn a 30-day suspension!  😁😁😁

Were these the Chiefs that would take roudy troops out back and “take care of them boss?” I’ve heard those stories from some of the real crusty ones. Us generation X/Z, whatever the F I am, envy your time in the service. 

[Prosuper]

5 hours ago, dream big said:

Were these the Chiefs that would take roudy troops out back and “take care of them boss?” I’ve heard those stories from some of the real crusty ones. Us generation X/Z, whatever the F I am, envy your time in the service. 

Never seen behind the blast fence and if it did happen it was usually a TSgt or MSgt, I found sending a young troop who wasn't performing well to the AOR usually shaped him to finally understand what we really did was important. I've seen them transform into reliable assets. Back then a well-respected/feared Chief all he had to say I'm disappointed in you and it would destroy you. If the Chief called, you into the office you know you effd up.  

[filthy_liar]

On 11/2/2022 at 3:24 PM, pawnman said:

We had several awesome chiefs at Dyess that knew how to get shit done.

 

On 11/2/2022 at 3:40 PM, Danger41 said:

Not to put you on the spot, but what did you do in the CAF?

I did not see several awesome chiefs at Dyess that knew how to get shit done.