Question about my Mentality of Applying ANG/ AFR v Active

[DeltaMike17]

Was discussing on another forum about my chances of going the pilot Reserves route because I'm somewhat hesitant of going Active Duty and not getting a pilot slot (Needs of the Airforce). Was trying to get some feedback on what the general feel of the training pipeline, acceptance, etc. was like. Instead I got a bunch of "If you're afraid of the needs of the AF going Active Duty then you shouldn't even commission". "It's about being an Officer first, not being a pilot." "Reserves isn't here just to get you hours/ratings."

Like damn, just trying to gauge the feel of getting a pilot slot thru reserves v AD because

1.) I love flying

2.) I'm interested in serving my country

3.) Reserves is marketed as the only place to actually get sponsored for a pilot slot, so why not go that route first?

I know Reserves isn't just for hours/ratings
I know before anything you're an Officer first and not your MOS in the military
Am I in the right headspace if I'm reluctant of the Needs of the Air Force?
 

Edited November 2, 2022 by DMartin17
Clarification/ Grammar

[O Face]

@DMartin17

Edited November 2, 2022 by O Face

[DeltaMike17]

@O Face
What part of the topic do you not believe me in? I realize there are some contradictions in the topic such as "I'm interested in serving my Country" and "I'm scared of the Needs of the Air Force". My belief in service to country may be questioned here.

Just trying to do some soul searching because military is a career path I'm interested in. But, I don't want to just jump in head first without doing some research and discovering if this is the right path for me.

[O Face]

2 hours ago, DMartin17 said:

@O Face
What part of the topic do you not believe me in? I realize there are some contradictions in the topic such as "I'm interested in serving my Country" and "I'm scared of the Needs of the Air Force". My belief in service to country may be questioned here.

Just trying to do some soul searching because military is a career path I'm interested in. But, I don't want to just jump in head first without doing some research and discovering if this is the right path for me.

Well, assuming you’re not just trolling us, I’d recommend you take your own advice in your last sentence and “do some research”. There is, quite literally, hundreds of pages of people discussing AD vs Res vs ANG, and their particulars, on this very sub-forum. Then I’d recommend you explore the “Road to Wings” forum, specifically “Pilot Selection Process” followed by “What Are My Chances.”  Then I’d recommend coming back with some specific questions that we’d be happy to answer for you. However, nobody on here should try to talk you into this life and nor should anyone attempt to psychoanalyze your “headspace.”  Happy reading. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by O Face
Clarity

[BL_224]

17 hours ago, DMartin17 said:

Was discussing on another forum about my chances of going the pilot Reserves route because I'm somewhat hesitant of going Active Duty and not getting a pilot slot (Needs of the Airforce). Was trying to get some feedback on what the general feel of the training pipeline, acceptance, etc. was like. Instead I got a bunch of "If you're afraid of the needs of the AF going Active Duty then you shouldn't even commission". "It's about being an Officer first, not being a pilot." "Reserves isn't here just to get you hours/ratings."

Like damn, just trying to gauge the feel of getting a pilot slot thru reserves v AD because

1.) I love flying

2.) I'm interested in serving my country

3.) Reserves is marketed as the only place to actually get sponsored for a pilot slot, so why not go that route first?

I know Reserves isn't just for hours/ratings
I know before anything you're an Officer first and not your MOS in the military
Am I in the right headspace if I'm reluctant of the Needs of the Air Force?
 

Another thing to consider if you’re that concerned about getting a “guaranteed” flight slot is the Marine Corps. It’s not the typical path people think of but they do give out “guaranteed” flight contracts prior to joining. 
 

Just food for thought. DM me if you’re interested in that. 

[brabus]

I’ll just say it - a lot of people had these same thoughts when younger, but they won’t admit it out loud while simultaneously throwing out “officer first.” They’re correct in that statement, but it’s not so black and white, and that’s OK. I understand where you’re at/coming from.

I won’t rehash in detail, as Oface is correct about a lot of info in the “archives,” but big pic…

AD - If looking at OTS route, you can decline any “offer,” so you’re not stuck. There’s a lot more details on that you’ll have to go read yourself. ROTC/USAFA is not a guarantee, but ultimately my opinion is those who should get a pilot slot typically do, with minor exceptions. 
 

ANG/AFRC - “Guaranteed,” but you have to get hired. That is a very competitive process and definitely risk of not making it. Go read about it. 
 

My opinion - Try for ANG, AFRC, AD in that order. Once you’re getting “old” on the interview circuit, consider putting your hat into the AD ring. Regardless of which component you may go to,  be good with being a non-flying officer for at least 4 years, as there’s lots of hurdles to stumble over on your way to being a MR wingman or co-pilot. 

[Chida]

DMartin17:

I've observed over the years that there is a certain type of person that will scrutinize your motivations for wanting to be in the AF. In their view, ideological purity is very important ("Attitude is EVERYTHING!"). These types are everywhere in the AF, probably on your interview board, so regardless of your opinions you will need to "deal" with these types.

I agree with you (if my read on you is correct) that a candidate's stated motivations shouldn't count for a whole lot. After all, who can really know what's inside someone's head? And shouldn't it be enough that we have people who are willing to serve? To me the whole idea of psychoanalyzing a particular candidate reeks of control-freak mentality.

So to sum up: that's the landscape and play the game as well as you can.

To answer your question: "Am I in the right headspace if I'm reluctant of the Needs of the Air Force?" No, you're fine. But that's my opinion and others (probably on your interview board) might have another opinion so you should be sensitive to that viewpoint.

[DeltaMike17]

@Chida@brabus@BL_224@O Face

Thanks for the advice. I've been doing my research and my plan is in this order:
1. Study for AFOQT/ ASTB and take them Jan/ February 2023
2. Stay on the lookout for ANG/ AFR base applications that interest me (I've seen plenty already with very picky requirements, and these board meetings are few and far between till I take my tests)
3. Air Force is Choice 1, then Navy, then Army/ Marines. I would love to fly fixed wing but I'm open to flying anything that gives me a slot (Ex. I have a Bachelors degree but I'm not opposed to going to WOFT)

The reason I'm interested in the Military: I have a PPL, but, I'm not interested in the Regionals/ Airline route. Everybody else is telling me to go Airlines and get paid 6 figures. However, it seems that only I know that 6 figure salary will happen after 10+ years of groveling for the next seniority slot. To me it looks like just chasing the paycheck until you grow old and die. I want to do something impactful for my country as well as develop as a character. I believe the military is the place for that.
My parents were prior Air Force. I've got Aunts and Uncles in the Marines, Army, Navy, etc. Growing up I was young and naive and wanted to do Army Rangers right out of High school. Almost did Marines reserves but Mom said do college first. And so I listened and got my Bachelors. Got a PPL and discovered my passion for flying.
However, I've had the negative opinions as well. I've had friends who went enlisted right after Highschool; Marines, MARSOC, 82nd Airborne, etc. When I asked them if it was worth it they all had a resounding F*%& NO, GO RESERVES OR OFFICER AND MAKE SURE IT'S THE AIR FORCE. So there's my stand on things to help shape them up

And despite having lots of negative opinions, I'm still interested in flying for the military and serving my country. It's like a recurring itch that I just can't ignore any longer. I know this won't happen immediately and may as well take 2-3 years before I actually begin flying. By that time I would be 26/27 if I do get a pilot slot for whatever branch accepts me. I've contacted the Air Force but they literally take 5 days to answer a yes/no question. While the Navy recruiter was actually pretty responsive, same day texts. However, only the AIR FORCE is doing reserves. Every other branch is Active Duty. And that means 8-10 year contracts.

Overall, I'm feeling adventurous about pursuing this path. However, I want to be well informed and choose the correct path for me.

Also here's OCS grades for 2023, some information that I tried to scrounge around for to get an idea of things. I've not taken the AFOQT but these look insanely competitive. I'd suspect I'm average and probably won't meet such standards. But I've yet to take the test so we'll see

Edited December 5, 2022 by DMartin17

[7thokage]

[mention=9186]Chida[/mention][mention=2354]brabus[/mention][mention=82209]BL_224[/mention][mention=14963]O Face[/mention]

Thanks for the advice. I've been doing my research and my plan is in this order:
1. Study for AFOQT/ ASTB and take them Jan/ February 2023
2. Stay on the lookout for ANG/ AFR base applications that interest me (I've seen plenty already with very picky requirements, and these board meetings are few and far between till I take my tests)
3. Air Force is Choice 1, then Navy, then Army/ Marines. I would love to fly fixed wing but I'm open to flying anything that gives me a slot (Ex. I have a Bachelors degree but I'm not opposed to going to WOFT)

The reason I'm interested in the Military: I have a PPL, but, I'm not interested in the Regionals/ Airline route. Everybody else is telling me to go Airlines and get paid 6 figures. However, it seems that only I know that 6 figure salary will happen after 10+ years of groveling for the next seniority slot. To me it looks like just chasing the paycheck until you grow old and die. I want to do something impactful for my country as well as develop as a character. I believe the military is the place for that.
My parents were prior Air Force. I've got Aunts and Uncles in the Marines, Army, Navy, etc. Growing up I was young and naive and wanted to do Army Rangers right out of High school. Almost did Marines reserves but Mom said do college first. And so I listened and got my Bachelors. Got a PPL and discovered my passion for flying.
However, I've had the negative opinions as well. I've had friends who went enlisted right after Highschool; Marines, MARSOC, 82nd Airborne, etc. When I asked them if it was worth it they all had a resounding F*%& NO, GO RESERVES OR OFFICER AND MAKE SURE IT'S THE AIR FORCE. So there's my stand on things to help shape them up

And despite having lots of negative opinions, I'm still interested in flying for the military and serving my country. It's like a recurring itch that I just can't ignore any longer. I know this won't happen immediately and may as well take 2-3 years before I actually begin flying. By that time I would be 26/27 if I do get a pilot slot for whatever branch accepts me. I've contacted the Air Force but they literally take 5 days to answer a yes/no question. While the Navy recruiter was actually pretty responsive, same day texts. However, only the AIR FORCE is doing reserves. Every other branch is Active Duty. And that means 8-10 year contracts.

Overall, I'm feeling adventurous about pursuing this path. However, I want to be well informed and choose the correct path for me.

Also here's OCS grades for 2023, some information that I tried to scrounge around for to get an idea of things. I've not taken the AFOQT but these look insanely competitive. I'd suspect I'm average and probably won't meet such standards. But I've yet to take the test so we'll see

To be clear - contract duration is the same for AD and reserves for pilots. 10 years post training.


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[HHE152]

I've the same feelings on this too, just wanted to let you know you aren't alone.

[O Face]

On 12/4/2022 at 6:38 PM, DMartin17 said:

@Chida@brabus@BL_224@O Face

Thanks for the advice. I've been doing my research and my plan is in this order:
1. Study for AFOQT/ ASTB and take them Jan/ February 2023
2. Stay on the lookout for ANG/ AFR base applications that interest me (I've seen plenty already with very picky requirements, and these board meetings are few and far between till I take my tests)
3. Air Force is Choice 1, then Navy, then Army/ Marines. I would love to fly fixed wing but I'm open to flying anything that gives me a slot (Ex. I have a Bachelors degree but I'm not opposed to going to WOFT)

The reason I'm interested in the Military: I have a PPL, but, I'm not interested in the Regionals/ Airline route. Everybody else is telling me to go Airlines and get paid 6 figures. However, it seems that only I know that 6 figure salary will happen after 10+ years of groveling for the next seniority slot. To me it looks like just chasing the paycheck until you grow old and die. I want to do something impactful for my country as well as develop as a character. I believe the military is the place for that.
My parents were prior Air Force. I've got Aunts and Uncles in the Marines, Army, Navy, etc. Growing up I was young and naive and wanted to do Army Rangers right out of High school. Almost did Marines reserves but Mom said do college first. And so I listened and got my Bachelors. Got a PPL and discovered my passion for flying.
However, I've had the negative opinions as well. I've had friends who went enlisted right after Highschool; Marines, MARSOC, 82nd Airborne, etc. When I asked them if it was worth it they all had a resounding F*%& NO, GO RESERVES OR OFFICER AND MAKE SURE IT'S THE AIR FORCE. So there's my stand on things to help shape them up

And despite having lots of negative opinions, I'm still interested in flying for the military and serving my country. It's like a recurring itch that I just can't ignore any longer. I know this won't happen immediately and may as well take 2-3 years before I actually begin flying. By that time I would be 26/27 if I do get a pilot slot for whatever branch accepts me. I've contacted the Air Force but they literally take 5 days to answer a yes/no question. While the Navy recruiter was actually pretty responsive, same day texts. However, only the AIR FORCE is doing reserves. Every other branch is Active Duty. And that means 8-10 year contracts.

Overall, I'm feeling adventurous about pursuing this path. However, I want to be well informed and choose the correct path for me.

Also here's OCS grades for 2023, some information that I tried to scrounge around for to get an idea of things. I've not taken the AFOQT but these look insanely competitive. I'd suspect I'm average and probably won't meet such standards. But I've yet to take the test so we'll see

Ok, I’ll try again here. I’m glad you did some reading, and from what I can gather from your post, you’re 24 yrs old with a bachelors degree, a PPL, you’re studying for the AFOQT, and you’ve talked to some recruiters. These are all good things. What I can’t find in your lengthy post is a question mark anywhere. As I mentioned previously, if you have questions or concerns, we’ll be happy to help, but you mostly told us about your feelings, so I’m not sure what you’re hoping to get back from us.
To clear up some things from your post: every branch has a Reserve component.  The USAF and Army have both Reserve and National Guard units  As @7thokagesaid, every branch has a service commitment too. Lastly, AF Reserve and Air National Guard pilot slots are extremely competitive, more so than AD, so study hard for that AFOQT and get some more flight hours to improve your PCSM scores. 

Edited December 6, 2022 by O Face
Words

[DeltaMike17]

@O Face
Yeah I've done some soul searching since I posted this in November and decided I'd have a better chance at an Active Duty commitment and going thru with Needs of the Military. Of course I'll try to see some ANG/AFR positions when they come up but like I and you said: They are VERY competitive. Not the best kept secret anymore I guess.

Questions for you if you know it:
1. Are contracts binding you to completion? For example, if I sign on to be a AD Helicopter pilot for the AF (10 years) can I transition to another Branch that flies helicopters halfway thru my contract (ie Army)? (Seems kind of obvious but just clarifying)
2. Have you've taken any of the Military Officer Tests? Or rather are you actively serving/ retired? May have follow up questions for you
3. Is there a cap on PCSM now? I've done a little digging and supposedly the new cap is "60 hours". Which is there to, "not deter anyone who cannot financially secure more flight hours away from recruitment"

Thanks

[O Face]

7 hours ago, DMartin17 said:

@O Face
Yeah I've done some soul searching since I posted this in November and decided I'd have a better chance at an Active Duty commitment and going thru with Needs of the Military. Of course I'll try to see some ANG/AFR positions when they come up but like I and you said: They are VERY competitive. Not the best kept secret anymore I guess.

Questions for you if you know it:
1. Are contracts binding you to completion? For example, if I sign on to be a AD Helicopter pilot for the AF (10 years) can I transition to another Branch that flies helicopters halfway thru my contract (ie Army)? (Seems kind of obvious but just clarifying)
2. Have you've taken any of the Military Officer Tests? Or rather are you actively serving/ retired? May have follow up questions for you
3. Is there a cap on PCSM now? I've done a little digging and supposedly the new cap is "60 hours". Which is there to, "not deter anyone who cannot financially secure more flight hours away from recruitment"

Thanks

Happy to answer your questions the best I can:

1.  Yes they are binding, and no you cannot take your commitment to another branch of service. (There are some very limited opportunities to serve on a joint assignment with another branch, and some even slimmer chances of an inter-service transfer, but this is not something you should really even consider at this point)  But if you were flying HH-60’s in the AF you cannot (nor would you want to) walk over to the Army and finish your commitment flying their UH-60’s, for example.  Also, know that if you go AD, ANG, or Reserve it’s 10 years AFTER you get your wings.  UPT is a year long, tack on your OTS and time sitting on casual waiting for class dates, medical, etc and you’re realistically looking at 12 years of service before you can separate.  However, I would reiterate what others have said, you’re going to know, before you go, whether you’ve been selected for pilot or not.  So, back to your original post - Uncle Sam isn’t going to trick you into something here.  If you aren’t selected for a pilot slot you can still walk away from the recruiter, but once they send you to flight school, the AF owns your ass.

2. Yes I took all the tests, I’m currently a pilot in the Air National Guard. Albeit an older one now, hell the TBAS was still called BATS when I took it. 
 

3.  There’s a max number of points you get on your PCSM for flight hours. I thought 200+ Hrs was the top, but that could’ve changed. I’ll do some digging and ask some of the new guys in the squadron. I’m sure there’s some folks here who are currently in the process, who have tested recently that can answer that too. 

[brabus]

On 12/8/2022 at 2:30 PM, DMartin17 said:

I've done a little digging and supposedly the new cap is "60 hours"

That’s true. You can obviously fly more, just won’t help increase your PCSM.

[DeltaMike17]

@brabus@O Face
Aight last question:
Is the PPL license I have really that much more competitive? Should I continue towards IFR ratings or just stop there if I'm interested in the military if I don't want the civilian flying to interfere with military training?

I keep hearing that it's a "whole person concept" that the Pilot Selection Process is trying to determine out of you. However, the recent scores below kind of sound like the Air Force is really cherry picking their pilot candidates from the best Ivy league schools (and understandably so if I'm hearing that everyone and their mother is trying to get into the AF).

This kind of question is reserved for the "What are my chances Forum" but I haven't taken the AFOQT yet so I might not be able determine the veracity of responses there.
So, how "whole person" is the selection in your opinion? For example, my GPA is 3.15 in Bachelor of Arts. Compared to the 92T0 Average GPA of 3.71... Just trying to get an idea of whether I need to shape up my resume more or not

 

[BL_224]

4 hours ago, DMartin17 said:

@brabus@O Face
Aight last question:
Is the PPL license I have really that much more competitive? Should I continue towards IFR ratings or just stop there if I'm interested in the military if I don't want the civilian flying to interfere with military training?

I keep hearing that it's a "whole person concept" that the Pilot Selection Process is trying to determine out of you. However, the recent scores below kind of sound like the Air Force is really cherry picking their pilot candidates from the best Ivy league schools (and understandably so if I'm hearing that everyone and their mother is trying to get into the AF).

This kind of question is reserved for the "What are my chances Forum" but I haven't taken the AFOQT yet so I might not be able determine the veracity of responses there.
So, how "whole person" is the selection in your opinion? For example, my GPA is 3.15 in Bachelor of Arts. Compared to the 92T0 Average GPA of 3.71... Just trying to get an idea of whether I need to shape up my resume more or not

 

Short answer: Getting your instrument might make you “stand out” a bit more 
 

Longer answer:  While the “whole person” concept is a thing, keep in mind, the chart that you keep referencing is just a chart, it’s statistics and averages.  Focus on what you can control (Test scores, letters of rec, aviation or personal experience) and let go of the things you can’t (Slots available, timing, needs of the AF). 
 

Granted I’m coming from the Marine fighter community however being a good or great tactical aviator takes more than just test scores, GPA, college major or where you went to school.  Some of the best pilots I know have non-ivy league, non-STEM backgrounds that worked hard and had grit and passion for tactical aviation.  

[brabus]

If you can afford to fly, do it, but do not spend money you don’t have to get an IFR rating - it’s not going to make much difference. 

[O Face]

Those two bros pretty much said it all. Only thing I’d add is to do what it takes to score very well on your AFOQT. 

Edited December 15, 2022 by O Face
Edit

[DeltaMike17]

@BL_224@O Face@brabus
Aight thanks for the help, just getting an Idea as I study for the AFOQT/ ASTB
Also including volunteering hours, trying to develop more flight time along with my job, etc. etc. along the way

Thanks, Really helpful answers

[O Face]

 

Maybe work on your gifs as well!!