World War III Updates

[RegularJoe]

5 hours ago, gearhog said:

Based on my upbringing, culture, and belief system, Hamas are ing animals. What would you do yourself if someone did those things you mentioned to your family? You'd kill them and I'd help you. I might even help you burn the house. But when you start slaughtering the neighbors and leveling the whole community because they tolerated the killer's existence, I gotta disengage somewhere. When does justice become revenge?

 

I agree with your statement, however this is where I have issue with the people living in Gaza. Hamas oppressed you as residents = agreed / Israel is bombing and destroying your homes and towns because Hamas is imbeded inside your homes, hospitals, stores etc...  You cannot convince me that the residents there "don't know who Hamas players are", then for the sake of your families, town, wellbeing kill those motherf*ckers. If the Palestinians as a people would literally kill these hoodlums hiding in thier towns then bombs wouldn't be falling from above.

 

If this was happening here, we as residents would be stacking bodies faster than the military to keep ordinance off our heads.  At some point they can't be victims and do nothing about it.

[O Face]

I bet @Best-22 even downvotes posts in the “German chicks in dirndl and beer” thread…Hold on, I’ll go check. 

[Negatory]

7 hours ago, RegularJoe said:

I agree with your statement, however this is where I have issue with the people living in Gaza. Hamas oppressed you as residents = agreed / Israel is bombing and destroying your homes and towns because Hamas is imbeded inside your homes, hospitals, stores etc...  You cannot convince me that the residents there "don't know who Hamas players are", then for the sake of your families, town, wellbeing kill those motherf*ckers. If the Palestinians as a people would literally kill these hoodlums hiding in thier towns then bombs wouldn't be falling from above.

 

If this was happening here, we as residents would be stacking bodies faster than the military to keep ordinance off our heads.  At some point they can't be victims and do nothing about it.

Real “I’m a tough guy” vibes flowing. Half of Gazas population is under 18 and 70% are 29 or younger. You’re effectively asking blunted, uneducated, young people with no resources - who grew up surrounded by a cult and have been oppressed their whole lives - to just take it into their hands to have an epiphany and “kill the hoodlums.” Oh, it’s also impossible for regular citizens to get weapons, the “hoodlums” are actual savage terrorists, and if you kill them you’ll be likely labeled a terrorist yourself when the narrative is convenient (see the Kurds).

I’m sure you’re also appalled by all the Texans who know there are drug dealers crossing the border - whose drugs make it deep into America - and those Texans don’t “just kill” those “motherf*ckers.” There are a lot of useless 15 year olds in Texas, tell ya what.

[pawnman]

"Im not antisemitic, I'm anti-Zionist..."

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzIUTfHLs2H/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

[Negatory]

Israel and the West, specifically the US, are hardcore losing the info war. Seeing some of these high school and college age idiots supporting hamas simply because they are being inundated by TikTok propaganda makes me think we actually should do something.

Susceptibility to disinformation is a legitimate vulnerability of democratic societies. How do you fix that?

[gearhog]

House Resolution 559 passed yesterday afternoon.

Remember when there was an attack on 9/11, a conflict in AFG and we were able to make Iraq part of the same operation and 20 years passed?

Remember when there was an attack on 10/7, a conflict in Israel and we were able to make Iran part of the same operation and 20 years passed?

If the process ain't broke, don't fix it.

Whereas international complacency toward Iran’s illicit nu- clear program threatens the global nonproliferation re- gime: Now, therefore, be it  Resolved, That the House of Representatives declares it is the policy of the United States—

(1) that a nuclear Islamic Republic of Iran is not acceptable;

(2) that Iran must not be able to obtain a nuclear weapon under any circumstances or conditions;

(3) to use all means necessary to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon; and
(4) to recognize and support the freedom of action of partners and allies, including Israel, to pre- vent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon.

 

 

 

[gearhog]

10 hours ago, RegularJoe said:

I agree with your statement, however this is where I have issue with the people living in Gaza. Hamas oppressed you as residents = agreed / Israel is bombing and destroying your homes and towns because Hamas is imbeded inside your homes, hospitals, stores etc...  You cannot convince me that the residents there "don't know who Hamas players are", then for the sake of your families, town, wellbeing kill those motherf*ckers. If the Palestinians as a people would literally kill these hoodlums hiding in thier towns then bombs wouldn't be falling from above.

If this was happening here, we as residents would be stacking bodies faster than the military to keep ordinance off our heads.  At some point they can't be victims and do nothing about it.

It's easier to think of and digest both Israeli and Palestinian people as being a monolithic society, paint with a broad brush, and hold them to all to account. It's much more difficult and confusing to conceptualize them as a complex society, many of which are oppressed for their beliefs and viewpoints.

Example 1: Palestinian women being beaten for saying Hamas are dogs and are to blame for the deaths of their loved ones.

Example 2: Orthodox Jews are beaten on the street by Israeli police for speaking against the war.

Example 3: Bombs falling near a Christian Church in Gaza. What side are they on?

I don't think it's fair to hold everyone in either Gaza or Israel accountable for a conflict they don't endorse. I also realize it's impossible to defend yourself without inflicting collateral damage. But there is absolutely no talk of a solution other than total war. Why is that not an option for any of the current conflicts we find ourselves in?

[Swizzle]

24 minutes ago, gearhog said:

House Resolution 559 passed yesterday afternoon.

Remember when there was an attack on 9/11, a conflict in AFG and we were able to make Iraq part of the same operation and 20 years passed?

Remember when there was an attack on 10/7, a conflict in Israel and we were able to make Iran part of the same operation and 20 years passed?

If the process ain't broke, don't fix it.

Whereas international complacency toward Iran’s illicit nu- clear program threatens the global nonproliferation re- gime: Now, therefore, be it  Resolved, That the House of Representatives declares it is the policy of the United States—

(1) that a nuclear Islamic Republic of Iran is not acceptable;

(2) that Iran must not be able to obtain a nuclear weapon under any circumstances or conditions;

(3) to use all means necessary to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon; and
(4) to recognize and support the freedom of action of partners and allies, including Israel, to pre- vent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon.

 

 

 

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-resolution/559/

Edited November 2, 2023 by Swizzle
Link fix, and watch as it goes

[RegularJoe]

3 hours ago, Negatory said:

Real “I’m a tough guy” vibes flowing. Half of Gazas population is under 18 and 70% are 29 or younger. You’re effectively asking blunted, uneducated, young people with no resources - who grew up surrounded by a cult and have been oppressed their whole lives - to just take it into their hands to have an epiphany and “kill the hoodlums.” Oh, it’s also impossible for regular citizens to get weapons, the “hoodlums” are actual savage terrorists, and if you kill them you’ll be likely labeled a terrorist yourself when the narrative is convenient (see the Kurds).

I’m sure you’re also appalled by all the Texans who know there are drug dealers crossing the border - whose drugs make it deep into America - and those Texans don’t “just kill” those “motherf*ckers.” There are a lot of useless 15 year olds in Texas, tell ya what.

I spent ten years there, have you even left the country?

 

[NKAWTG]

55 minutes ago, gearhog said:

It's easier to think of and digest both Israeli and Palestinian people as being a monolithic society, paint with a broad brush, and hold them to all to account. It's much more difficult and confusing to conceptualize them as a complex society, many of which are oppressed for their beliefs and viewpoints.

Example 1: Palestinian women being beaten for saying Hamas are dogs and are to blame for the deaths of their loved ones.

Example 2: Orthodox Jews are beaten on the street by Israeli police for speaking against the war.

Example 3: Bombs falling near a Christian Church in Gaza. What side are they on?

I don't think it's fair to hold everyone in either Gaza or Israel accountable for a conflict they don't endorse. I also realize it's impossible to defend yourself without inflicting collateral damage. But there is absolutely no talk of a solution other than total war. Why is that not an option for any of the current conflicts we find ourselves in?

But there is absolutely no talk of a solution other than total war?

The problem has rarely been what do the Israeli's want to do.  Is there a political solution where the Palestinians accept less than the death of all Jews in the holy land, and the elimination of Israel as a country?  Not sure how you meet halfway on those demands.  

[kaputt]

40 minutes ago, gearhog said:

 

Example 1: Palestinian women being beaten for saying Hamas are dogs and are to blame for the deaths of their loved ones.

Example 2: Orthodox Jews are beaten on the street by Israeli police for speaking against the war.

 

 

You are the king of posting small Twitter clips and adding your own click bait title to it to try and steer your own narrative.
 

Maybe I missed the woman getting beaten in the first video? I mean yeah I see a man, silencing her since he knows they’re being recorded, and that’s definitely not good, but welcome to mass patriarchy of Islamic society. However she didn’t get beaten like you so emphatically claimed.

Where’s your source that those Orthodox men were protesting the war? There’s zero evidence in the clip either way of what’s going on in that video. Not endorsing the police officer body slamming that man in the street, but you have absolutely no way to prove what’s happening there. I tried to find an article referencing that incident and the only one I found was Al Jazeera. And we know what straight shooters they are.

Now I’m not debating the wrongness of those videos, and perhaps more will come out and back up what’s happening there.
 

But what really gets obnoxious is over and over on this website you post links to short video clips on Twitter with some sensationalist title or post about them, and most of them are easily proven to be false or carefully cut and crafted to take a small snippet out of context. 
 

Be careful how much 10 second Twitter clips you’re consuming as your “news”.

I realize I’m probably wasting key strokes here, but shit like a this just proves how fucked we are as a society. It’s mind blowing how many people, both left and right, will get sucked into a 10 second video clip with a short title that has no basis in facts, and take it as gospel, so long as it aligns with their own personal views. 
 

I haven’t been on this site as long as some, but I’ve been around long enough to remember there was generally a lot more critical thought that used to go into discussions here. It was a real gem of the internet, now it’s just mostly shitpost central like everywhere else. 
 

It’s no wonder some long time posters have left this site. Whatever, long and probably useless rant over. 

[ClearedHot]

1 hour ago, Negatory said:

Israel and the West, specifically the US, are hardcore losing the info war. Seeing some of these high school and college age idiots supporting hamas simply because they are being inundated by TikTok propaganda makes me think we actually should do something.

It is and has been absolutely stunning to me that the country that invented the 24 hour news cycle and has so many talking heads lets terror organizations and ignorant political movements run circles around them.  It takes me back to Baghdad Bob, everything is fine, nothing to worry about.  I've personally been a victim of it twice during my non-glorious career.

Cell phones have changed everything including our attention span...who actually reads the newspaper anymore, everyone gets their news from Facebook, X and Insta.  Networks like Fox, CNN and MSNBC limit all segments to three minutes with the hosts cutting an expert off before they even make a salient point.

 

2 hours ago, Negatory said:

Susceptibility to disinformation is a legitimate vulnerability of democratic societies. How do you fix that?

Agree, but tough to control in our society where freedom of the press it literally the very first amendment in our Constitution.  I can tell you we do NOT put the government in charge like uncle Joe tried to do with the crazy show tunes singing bitch.  It would be great if the press would actually act like the fourth estate and did their job...too much to ask I know.

[uhhello]

31 minutes ago, RegularJoe said:

I spent ten years there, have you even left the country?

 

How many Hamas scalps are on your belt?  

[HeloDude]

2 hours ago, Negatory said:

Israel and the West, specifically the US, are hardcore losing the info war. Seeing some of these high school and college age idiots supporting hamas simply because they are being inundated by TikTok propaganda makes me think we actually should do something.

Susceptibility to disinformation is a legitimate vulnerability of democratic societies. How do you fix that?

So a self proclaimed leftist, who originally said that what we were seeing at the colleges was from extremely small groups, but being hyped up by the conservative media, is now saying that the leftists supporting Hamas is a problem…at the universities ran by leftists who are largely supporting these students…who are getting their disinformation from leftists groups (TikToc or otherwise).  And finally he also supports the government implementing some kind of new regulations to add additional control over the information (I’m sure as long as it’s done by leftists).

Here’s a thought—how about we hold people accountable for their own actions?  If the universities believe these students are exhibiting unacceptable behavior, then kick them out…so let me know when all these students are removed from campuses.

[tac airlifter]

2 hours ago, Negatory said:

Susceptibility to disinformation is a legitimate vulnerability of democratic societies. How do you fix that?

 

49 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

Agree, but tough to control in our society where freedom of the press it literally the very first amendment in our Constitution.  I can tell you we do NOT put the government in charge like uncle Joe tried to do with the crazy show tunes singing bitch.  It would be great if the press would actually act like the fourth estate and did their job...too much to ask I know.

Great discussion.  Agree with the identification of misinformation being a definite threat to our society, and agree with CH on all points; Covid proved we absolutely cannot have a government sponsored disinformation effort as it will 100% lie to advance a false narrative.

As Thomas Sowell says "there are no solutions, only trade-offs."  Human issues are rarely solved, they are mostly managed.  Thinking like that is a good start on this problem set.  In that vein, the X construct of allowing added "community notes" to provide a counter-point is a decent compromise between allowing free speech while also real-time tagging it as propaganda.  We are allowed to consume both sides.

I also think long-form style interviews (Joe Rogan) are healthier to view than the news, which is either constant arguing or a series of 10 second quips lacking any depth.  That style of information is no-shit rewiring our brains to make us dumber.  Great book if you'd like to read more: How the news makes us dumb.

I'd love to see the fourth estate actually function & hold power accountable (on every side).  But they're hard core partisans and proud of it, they even view it as their duty.  

Edited November 2, 2023 by tac airlifter

[gearhog]

1 hour ago, kaputt said:

You are the king of posting small Twitter clips and adding your own click bait title to it to try and steer your own narrative.

Maybe I missed the woman getting beaten in the first video? I mean yeah I see a man, silencing her since he knows they’re being recorded, and that’s definitely not good, but welcome to mass patriarchy of Islamic society. However she didn’t get beaten like you so emphatically claimed.

Where’s your source that those Orthodox men were protesting the war? There’s zero evidence in the clip either way of what’s going on in that video. Not endorsing the police officer body slamming that man in the street, but you have absolutely no way to prove what’s happening there. I tried to find an article referencing that incident and the only one I found was Al Jazeera. And we know what straight shooters they are.

Now I’m not debating the wrongness of those videos, and perhaps more will come out and back up what’s happening there.
 

But what really gets obnoxious is over and over on this website you post links to short video clips on Twitter with some sensationalist title or post about them, and most of them are easily proven to be false or carefully cut and crafted to take a small snippet out of context. 
 

Be careful how much 10 second Twitter clips you’re consuming as your “news”.

I realize I’m probably wasting key strokes here, but shit like a this just proves how fucked we are as a society. It’s mind blowing how many people, both left and right, will get sucked into a 10 second video clip with a short title that has no basis in facts, and take it as gospel, so long as it aligns with their own personal views. 
 

I haven’t been on this site as long as some, but I’ve been around long enough to remember there was generally a lot more critical thought that used to go into discussions here. It was a real gem of the internet, now it’s just mostly shitpost central like everywhere else. 
 

It’s no wonder some long time posters have left this site. Whatever, long and probably useless rant over. 

So what is your argument, then? That the clips are wrong, but they may later be proven right? GTFO. That every last person in Gaza are hardcore Hamas supporters who as a whole, want this war and all these civilians are happy do die in droves to further their cause? That everyone in Israel supports carpet-bombing Palestinian territories into oblivion? Why are you offended that I would offer a perspective other than that?

"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius.

I'm relaying what I'm seeing and hearing with my own eyes and ears. It's different than what you're seeing and hearing. That should be fine, but because I'm not here to sit in your circle jerk and chant "Death to Palestine" or "Death to Israel" or whatever your position is, you have a problem with it. Conveniently, you haven't provided a personal perspective here. Until you do, you can sit there and listen to mine and be consterned, annoyed, offended, and kick rocks. Grow a spine, come up with an original position you can make an argument for, and put it out there. I welcome it and I'll give it respectful consideration. What I don't respect is whining and useless rants.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.”  Mark Twain - Following The Equator

My entire argument here is for disengagement and de-escalation. If you're accusing me of hyping up my position in favor of that, I really don't fucking care. I'm not trying to mislead anyone.  I've been around long enough to know how this ends, and you should have, also. You must not have been paying attention. You want to bang the drums of war in the ME? Be my guest. But realize there isn't an outcome where you and your family do not become entangled in it. just got off the phone an hour ago with the offices of my State Representative and Senators. Call yours and give them the same vague, non-committal, bs you're giving me. See how it goes.

"Young warriors are always eager for battle, old warriors know better." - Robert Ferrigno

Yeah, you must not have been here long. I was in the same SQ with the same dude that founded this website at the exact time he did. Every little while someone opines that "This forum ain't what it used to be!" Bullshit. It's always been this. And people always threaten to leave. Go ahead. No one cares.

There are two types of people on this forum: People I disagree with and value, and people I disagree with and don't value. Guess which one.

Edit: I realize I may put a little too much zing in that one. The irony of "de-escalation" isn't lost on me. Don't take is personally. 😁

 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by gearhog

[ClearedHot]

2 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Here’s a thought—how about we hold people accountable for their own actions?  If the universities believe these students are exhibiting unacceptable behavior, then kick them out…so let me know when all these students are removed from campuses.

What is unacceptable behavior?  Taking down hostage posters - yes, blocking traffic - yes or attacking people - yes...but simply expressing another view point no way.

I was driving home two days ago and flipping through CNN and Fox on Sirius.  Fox had a retired Army Lt Gen I have never heard before and he was upset with the kids expressing their view of what was happening in Gaza...his commented that if a University allows this type of commenting they should lose their federal funding....uh...NO Fing Way.  I find what is being said by these far left groups absolutely appalling, but minus violence it is simply free speech.  Free speech is not only free speech you agree with and the government should not try to stifle those expressions. 

It is one thing for a private citizen to hold them accountable by denying jobs, doxxing, yelling back...that is part of the game, but minus violence and the law, the government should never cross that line.

[Biff_T]

5 hours ago, Negatory said:

Susceptibility to disinformation is a legitimate vulnerability of democratic societies. How do you fix that?

Education.  Raise your children, don't let tik tok do it.  My children aren't prancing around supporting terrorists.  They know.  

Don't start the censorship train.  That will not be good.  It will end up being used against people.  It ends with the wrong people having more power.  

[pawnman]

3 hours ago, HeloDude said:

So a self proclaimed leftist, who originally said that what we were seeing at the colleges was from extremely small groups, but being hyped up by the conservative media, is now saying that the leftists supporting Hamas is a problem…at the universities ran by leftists who are largely supporting these students…who are getting their disinformation from leftists groups (TikToc or otherwise).  And finally he also supports the government implementing some kind of new regulations to add additional control over the information (I’m sure as long as it’s done by leftists).

Here’s a thought—how about we hold people accountable for their own actions?  If the universities believe these students are exhibiting unacceptable behavior, then kick them out…so let me know when all these students are removed from campuses.

It's going to take a few more millionaire donors pulling their funding like they did at Penn before colleges will be willing to discipline these student groups.

[HeloDude]

6 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

What is unacceptable behavior?  Taking down hostage posters - yes, blocking traffic - yes or attacking people - yes...but simply expressing another view point no way.

I was driving home two days ago and flipping through CNN and Fox on Sirius.  Fox had a retired Army Lt Gen I have never heard before and he was upset with the kids expressing their view of what was happening in Gaza...his commented that if a University allows this type of commenting they should lose their federal funding....uh...NO Fing Way.  I find what is being said by these far left groups absolutely appalling, but minus violence it is simply free speech.  Free speech is not only free speech you agree with and the government should not try to stifle those expressions. 

It is one thing for a private citizen to hold them accountable by denying jobs, doxxing, yelling back...that is part of the game, but minus violence and the law, the government should never cross that line.

I never said illegal, I said unacceptable.  These universities have said they will not allow “hate speech” on their campuses, and threaten students who don’t use the “correct” pronouns.  So using their own litmus test, these universities need get rid of these students and prohibit this “unacceptable” behavior.  But they largely won’t…and why?—because the university leadership by and large share these same views.  Let’s not pretend these left wing institutions ever supported free speech and dissenting viewpoints.

[Lord Ratner]

On 11/1/2023 at 3:45 PM, gearhog said:

Hey, brother. I just want to make it clear that I know I'm being challenging, but I respect your opinion. I spend more time debating points with myself in my own mind than I do online.

Same. Best way to hone a position is to have it challenged. 

On 11/1/2023 at 3:45 PM, gearhog said:

Why would anyone attempt to make me feel as if I have some of obligation to support a side in this particular instance?

Because that's how lots of humans are? That's just how we act, we want other people to value what we value, do what we do, and fail how we fail. That's why drug addicts are always trying to make those around them addicts too. I however am not trying to do that, I think. 

On 11/1/2023 at 3:45 PM, gearhog said:

Is it better to say you support something and actually doing nothing, or saying you support doing nothing? I estimate 99% of people who pretend to have strong feelings on the matter get a bit of a charge out of public righteous moral indignation and virtue signalling.

I truly do commend your honesty. I hope that it's obvious we are debating the merits of the argument, not your honesty or what you should *say* rather than *do.* And that mostly we are talking about what we as a country should do, not as individuals. 

On 11/1/2023 at 3:45 PM, gearhog said:

But would they vote to send a family member to march behind a tank through Gaza in support of Israel? I think we've done a reasonable enough job setting up Israel for success. But it's like a 25 year old that won't leave home. Sink or swim.

No, but that's not the only option. There are many ways to support. As far as doing enough, we have also tied their hands for many years, as much of the West has. Each administration approaches Israel differently, but we have certainly pressured them to take sub-optimal approaches to Palestine in the past. 

On 11/1/2023 at 3:45 PM, gearhog said:

But when you start slaughtering the neighbors and leveling the whole community because they tolerated the killer's existence, I gotta disengage somewhere. When does justice become revenge?

This is not happening. First, they didn't "tolerate" their existence, they whole-heartedly supported Hamas and voted for them. Second, the "innocents" are not dying for their support, they are dying because Hamas intentionally hides in hospitals, schools, and "refugee camps," even though there are no refugees in Gaza. The difference between killing civilians because they supported the bad guys and killing them because they are literally shielding them is huge, and a moral difference that separates Israel from Palestine. 

On 11/1/2023 at 3:45 PM, gearhog said:

I don't understand this part. What do you mean there is no moral question about destroying a school with a bad guy in it? Are you saying we should or should not be disregarding morality?

Poorly phrased, lemme try again. But when your adversaries, who demonstrate in the most blatant way possible that they do not value civilian life, use your morals as a shield when they build their military facilities literally in schools and hospitals, it is not immoral to destroy those schools, and the unfortunate children inside. It is tragic, yes, but not evil. It is, however, evil to use civilians as shields. 

On 11/1/2023 at 3:45 PM, gearhog said:

I wouldn't.

Well literally, no. But for the purposes of exposing hypocrisy, yes. I assume you understand that, and the gif made me actually LOL.

On 11/1/2023 at 3:45 PM, gearhog said:

Wouldn't it be more reasonable to say that foreign involvements and interventions have created hostility? You seem to be saying you support conflict, but not so much as to actually involve our troops. If you can draw an arbitrary line as to how committed you are to a cause, why can't I?

Reasonable as an argument, sure, but I don't think it's accurate. The foreign policy blunders of the US are often viewed in isolation of the often more-severe blunders (or outright aggressions) of the other countries. I believe the world of the past 80 years has been more stable that it otherwise would have been without our intervention. That doesn't mean we didn't make things worse at times. 

 

And of course you can, but we are here to debate those lines. Obviously. 

On 11/1/2023 at 3:45 PM, gearhog said:

Why would you create a impossible hypothetical about how many people would be killed when there's an actual war being fought and they're both doing just that in reality? The numbers are the numbers.

Because hypotheticals are vital to creating moral frameworks and testing moral hypotheses. They allow us to set the upper and lower bounds on a concept, then work towards the truth in the middle. And because the arguments made about what Israel or the US have done wrong to encourage/cause/instigate the current conflict are equally hypothetical, because they assume a different outcome if the inputs had been changed. That's an assumption. 

 

Good post. 

[Lord Ratner]

On 11/1/2023 at 2:12 PM, Pooter said:

The moral high ground dissolves pretty quickly when you realize Netanyahu intentionally propped up Hamas across 4 administrations for the better part of 20 years, specifically to hinder Palestinian statehood & legitimacy.

 

On 11/1/2023 at 2:12 PM, Pooter said:

Either they're an existential threat or they aren't. You don't get to call them an existential threat, secretly support them, and then get mad when it blows up in your face. 

The question is more a matter of which existential threat is worse. The two-state solution is so entrenched in the modern narrative that people forget it was not the only option people were pushing for. The one-state solution was something the Israelis have had to fight for decades. The population imbalance meant that a one-state solution would immediately result in the subjugation (at best) or destruction (at worst) of the Jews as they would be immediately out-voted in their own democracy by a majority of Muslim Arabs who call for their extermination. 

 

So between a one state solution and the current mess, the current mess is still far more desirable, because under a one state solution there would be no Jewish state. Or, for that matter, Jews in the region.

 

Fast forward to the two-state solution dominating the narrative, and the Jews have to deal with the sovereignty of a Palestinian state meaning that they can no longer just go in and root out terrorists. This is another reason the shifting borders have been so contentious. An independent state has very different implications for Israel depending on where those borders are and how they allow for defense against attack, which is guaranteed. 

And so what does statehood mean for Israel? Now they are being attacked by a sovereign nation. That just makes a military incursion worse, and at the end, they are now occupying a country instead of whatever the hell Palestine is today.

Its a shit sandwich all around, but the Israel-did-this-to-themselves ignores that the Palestinians have been trying to wipe Israel off the map since the beginning, and have shown no evidence of changing that view. And before the creation of Israel by the Brits, Jews under the Turks were second class citizens. So, as with all things, "it depends."

 

But Israel has certainly done bad things, I won't deny that. But worse? I don't think so. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Lord Ratner

[Negatory]

19 hours ago, HeloDude said:

So a self proclaimed leftist, who originally said that what we were seeing at the colleges was from extremely small groups, but being hyped up by the conservative media, is now saying that the leftists supporting Hamas is a problem…at the universities ran by leftists who are largely supporting these students…who are getting their disinformation from leftists groups (TikToc or otherwise).  And finally he also supports the government implementing some kind of new regulations to add additional control over the information (I’m sure as long as it’s done by leftists).

Here’s a thought—how about we hold people accountable for their own actions?  If the universities believe these students are exhibiting unacceptable behavior, then kick them out…so let me know when all these students are removed from campuses.

You really can’t handle having a big boy discussion without bringing in political labels (that are wrong), can you? Nothing I said was political, but you have to bring it back to some super dumb take. Literally you just can’t fathom that we have similarity between our views. MAGA bro.

[Negatory]

20 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

Agree, but tough to control in our society where freedom of the press it literally the very first amendment in our Constitution.  I can tell you we do NOT put the government in charge like uncle Joe tried to do with the crazy show tunes singing bitch.  It would be great if the press would actually act like the fourth estate and did their job...too much to ask I know.

Maybe that’s how you fix it then. Codify ethnical and legal standards for media. Maybe make a journalists oath similar to the hippocratic oath. I am sure you could do that in a non biased way if we could just get our heads out of our asses.

And yes, that means potential limitations of lying or being close to lying on the freedom of the press. And before anyone says that’s unconstitutional, it’s not. We have limitations on almost every right we have (hate speech, over sexualized content, regular citizens can’t have nukes, etc.). The US has to have a serious talk about how the Information Age is making us vulnerable to being controlled by foreign entities.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Negatory

[Swizzle]

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/02/biggest-global-threat-since-1930s-looms-and-every-ceo-talking-about-it.html