B-17 down @ Wings Over Dallas Airshow

[nunya]

46 minutes ago, GrndPndr said:

we should be asking how much formation experience one should have before attempting what we saw (join)?

A rejoin is a skill taught to UPT students 4 months into training with 6-9 hours of formation flying experience. That's the wrong question. The question is what went wrong that a guy that has done thousands of rejoins in dozens of aircraft suddenly screws it up? And my experience tells me the answer has a lot more to do with human factors (rushing, distraction, medical, etc) than experience or skill.

Edited December 3, 2022 by nunya

[nunya]

17 minutes ago, brabus said:

My completely uninformed guess is the guy had thousands of hours if he’s flying aircraft like that.

Not a fighter guy but incredible experience. Seems like he lived and breathed this stuff from childhood.

https://www.toratoratora.com/pilots-bio/craig-hutain

[Biff_T]

 

4 minutes ago, nunya said:

Not a fighter guy but incredible experience. Seems like he lived and breathed this stuff from childhood.

https://www.toratoratora.com/pilots-bio/craig-hutain

After reading that, I'd say he probably knew how to do a turning rejoin.  

[Buddy Spike]

56 minutes ago, nunya said:

A rejoin is a skill taught to UPT students 4 months into training with 6-9 hours of formation flying experience. That's the wrong question. The question is what went wrong that a guy that has done thousands of rejoins in dozens of aircraft suddenly screws it up? And my experience tells me the answer has a lot more to do with human factors (rushing, distraction, medical, etc) than experience or skill.

Was he not -3 rejoining with his formation in front of the B-17s?  Looks like he was trying to make a rejoin happen with his element and went belly up and never saw the B-17.  

And is not having mini blocks standard for air show ops?  The report says no altitude deconfliction was briefed.  

[nunya]

6 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

Looks like he was trying to make a rejoin happen with his element and went belly up and never saw the B-17.  

Certainly plausible. His belly-up-ness struck me first, too. 

[HuggyU2]

14 hours ago, Prozac said:

Question for the warbird/air show types here: What kind of experience/training/certification is required to be an air boss at an event like this? 

The Air Boss at Ft Worth has been doing this for sometime... I'd guess 15 years.  

A few years ago, the International Council of Airshows (ICAS) and FAA decided to formalize the Air Boss certification program.  There was a gnashing of teeth with a lot of people over it, but it happened.  I have zero desire to become an Air Boss (I'll stick to airshow announcing) and so I haven't dived in to the specifics.  If you want more info, you can check out this link to get started.  Once there, click on the Program Manual to see the pdf document.  

https://airshows.aero/CMS/Manuals

[uhhello]

16 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

The Air Boss at Ft Worth has been doing this for sometime... I'd guess 15 years.  

A few years ago, the International Council of Airshows (ICAS) and FAA decided to formalize the Air Boss certification program.  There was a gnashing of teeth with a lot of people over it, but it happened.  I have zero desire to become an Air Boss (I'll stick to airshow announcing) and so I haven't dived in to the specifics.  If you want more info, you can check out this link to get started.  Once there, click on the Program Manual to see the pdf document.  

https://airshows.aero/CMS/Manuals

Thought I read he was brand new after taking over for his father?  I guess that still makes him experienced, just not in charge.

Edited December 3, 2022 by uhhello

[HuggyU2]

40 minutes ago, uhhello said:

Thought I read he was brand new after taking over for his father?  I guess that still makes him experienced, just not in charge.

That would be incorrect.  

[uhhello]

1 hour ago, HuggyU2 said:

That would be incorrect.  

Pinned by blancolirio

Good to know.  This is what I read.  Granted it's on a youtube comment but he seems pretty adamant 

Matt

1 day ago

Juan, just to give some further context to your excellent reporting, the Air Boss was brand new. This was his first air show as the "Air Boss" and is the son of the former air boss who had retired the year before after a lengthy career as the Wings over Dallas Air Show air boss. According to pilots that were in the briefing prior to the show that day, they report that the briefing was lacking in various substantive and vital information such as altitude deconfliction yet no one including a FAA representative that was in attendance raised any concern about the inadequatenes of the briefing by this new air boss.

[Prozac]

3 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

The Air Boss at Ft Worth has been doing this for sometime... I'd guess 15 years.  

A few years ago, the International Council of Airshows (ICAS) and FAA decided to formalize the Air Boss certification program.  There was a gnashing of teeth with a lot of people over it, but it happened.  I have zero desire to become an Air Boss (I'll stick to airshow announcing) and so I haven't dived in to the specifics.  If you want more info, you can check out this link to get started.  Once there, click on the Program Manual to see the pdf document.  

https://airshows.aero/CMS/Manuals

Thanks Huggy. I was just curious. It’s hard to believe that there wasn’t a simple altitude deconfliction briefed that could’ve averted this disaster. Of course we’re getting a lot of hearsay at the moment & perhaps more detail will come out with the full report that helps explain the planning & thinking in the moment. I’ve heard acquaintances familiar with the air show circuit say some pretty disparaging things about the warbird crowd in the past (lack of competency, training, etc) & wondered if some of that also extended to the air boss role. Whatever comes out of this, hopefully the lessons will be learned to prevent this in the future. Always sucks watching fellow aviators ball up perfectly good airplanes. RIP gents. 🍻

[hindsight2020]

Yes to the naked nepotism angle. Nah to the neophyte argument; he wasn't that new. But that matters not (to me).

His decision to audible that horrendously boneheaded in-trail, lanes shackle without defined vertical stacks, that was terrible, and fateful. As is the allegation by the NTSB that the  brief had no vertical stacking between formation tracks. 

The fact nobody involved called KIO, especially mustang lead, is frustrating to me. I have a theory of the case, but it deals with organizational culture and perverse incentives. Topics which I've mostly debated with folks offline and in person who share ramp space and mx providers at some of the airfields and chapters in question (C and S TX in my personal interactions, since I'm based down here). The thin-blue line reactions online just quickly grow toxic and vitriolic. One invariably offends some people too close to the proverbial vest by merely daring to debate the merits of the organization. It's very much a "my family's got a bunch of shitheads; I'm allowed to say that, you're not " type of ingroup/outgroup thing. *yawn*

At any rate, imho it was the decision to audible that nonsense which was more causal than contributory to the collision. The individual execution error on the part of Hutain I find much less interesting. That's just my opinion.

 Neither I nor the white knights, are the FAA. Which will be the ultimate authority on whether CAF keeps their revenue lanes open and accessible, and by extension the 501c3 salaried shtick going. To say nothing of the insurance angle which I've already spoken of previously. So we'll just have to see what comes of it. I just wanted to clarify I don't particularly find Hutain's execution error a salient takeaway in this whole thing, nor the most impactful aspect of this accident, counterintuitive as it may be for some.

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by hindsight2020

[HuggyU2]

1 hour ago, uhhello said:

Pinned by blancolirio

Good to know.  This is what I read.  Granted it's on a youtube comment but he seems pretty adamant 

 

Thanks for the reference.  I can't speak to what happened in the briefing as I wasn't there and have avoided asking anyone about it that was. 

Russell has been an Air Boss for quite some time.  His dad has been doing it for decades, and is one of the most well known people in the entire airshow industry.  I have worked with both and consider them both friends, especially the father.  

The entire thing saddens me deeply and it's best if I leave it at that.  

[uhhello]

15 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

Thanks for the reference.  I can't speak to what happened in the briefing as I wasn't there and have avoided asking anyone about it that was. 

Russell has been an Air Boss for quite some time.  His dad has been doing it for decades, and is one of the most well known people in the entire airshow industry.  I have worked with both and consider them both friends, especially the father.  

The entire thing saddens me deeply and it's best if I leave it at that.  

Sounds good and agreed.  

[hindsight2020]

1 hour ago, HuggyU2 said:

Thanks for the reference.  I can't speak to what happened in the briefing as I wasn't there and have avoided asking anyone about it that was. 

Russell has been an Air Boss for quite some time.  His dad has been doing it for decades, and is one of the most well known people in the entire airshow industry.  I have worked with both and consider them both friends, especially the father.  

The entire thing saddens me deeply and it's best if I leave it at that.  

 

I sympathize with the sentiment, it must be difficult to hear public scrutiny of people one is close to. That is why, and I include myself in it as someone who chooses to opine publicly about it, one must take everything written in social media with a grain of salt, and attempt to separate objective criticism from the personal chaff. Easier said than done of course. I can tell you my in-person exchanges with folks close to CAF down here in TX have been cordial, even if disagreements have arisen. As such, I give much lower stock to the reflexive vitriol online, I don't think it's representative of how people are IRL, fwiw. Cheers. 

[HuggyU2]

I've avoided most online stuff for that very reason. 
It did come up in my airline's forum... and deteriorated quickly once it became known one person involved had crossed the picket line. 
The nasty, hateful things that were stated were plentiful.   
 

I have since removed myself from that forum. 

[08Dawg]

I've been trying to avoid digging into this too much because of the vitriol, but I've seen a couple of things posted from what I consider to be fairly reliable sources that the P-63 may have hit a drone (footage supporting this exists), which could have been a contributing factor to the mishap.  Thoughts, anyone?

[uhhello]

1 hour ago, 08Dawg said:

I've been trying to avoid digging into this too much because of the vitriol, but I've seen a couple of things posted from what I consider to be fairly reliable sources that the P-63 may have hit a drone (footage supporting this exists), which could have been a contributing factor to the mishap.  Thoughts, anyone?

where is this footage?  I think this would make mainstream news at a minimum.  Found it on eurasiantimes.com.  The comments pretty much cover it, could have been anything and nothing.  

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by uhhello

[KODAK]

On 12/3/2022 at 2:10 PM, uhhello said:

Pinned by blancolirio

Good to know.  This is what I read.  Granted it's on a youtube comment but he seems pretty adamant 

Matt

1 day ago

Juan, just to give some further context to your excellent reporting, the Air Boss was brand new. This was his first air show as the "Air Boss" and is the son of the former air boss who had retired the year before after a lengthy career as the Wings over Dallas Air Show air boss. According to pilots that were in the briefing prior to the show that day, they report that the briefing was lacking in various substantive and vital information such as altitude deconfliction yet no one including a FAA representative that was in attendance raised any concern about the inadequatenes of the briefing by this new air boss.

Recommend avoiding anything Juan Brown/ Dan Gryder related if you are looking for meaningful knowledge or analysis..  I have absolute faith that the professionals will get the appropriate information out in due time, but I know it’s certainly hard to avoid speculation.  CAF will come out of this tragedy a better and safer organization - still an absolute tragedy this mishap occurred.

[Buddy Spike]

15 hours ago, 08Dawg said:

I've been trying to avoid digging into this too much because of the vitriol, but I've seen a couple of things posted from what I consider to be fairly reliable sources that the P-63 may have hit a drone (footage supporting this exists), which could have been a contributing factor to the mishap.  Thoughts, anyone?

 

Hitting a drone shouldn't have put him in the same piece of sky as the B-17.  It may have caused him not to look for the B-17 with a belly check, or further distracted him, but he was already in the wrong place at the wrong time.  

Also, the preliminary NTSB report makes no mention of this (and they would have this data by now).  It's likely fake news.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Buddy Spike

[M2]

18 hours ago, 08Dawg said:

I've been trying to avoid digging into this too much because of the vitriol, but I've seen a couple of things posted from what I consider to be fairly reliable sources that the P-63 may have hit a drone (footage supporting this exists), which could have been a contributing factor to the mishap.  Thoughts, anyone?

I saw that theory come up on U-Tube, but it was quickly denounced as the supporting video showed one of the lead P-51s striking it (if it did exist), not the P-63.

Overall, I believe it has been discounted; but I'll let the professionals do their job...

[Homestar]

16 hours ago, KODAK said:

Recommend avoiding anything Juan Brown/ Dan Gryder related

I've watched some Juan Brown videos, I find his videos insightful...is he generally bad or just jumping the gun because of ignorance?

[yzl337]

They are both internet blowhards attempting to make a name for themselves by throwing shit on the wall and seeing what sticks, over the bodies of people's friends and loved ones. Jumping the gun, bad guesses, they cover all the bases of poor incident investigation. 

[Homestar]

1 hour ago, yzl337 said:

they cover all the bases of poor incident investigation. 

Good thing they’re not accident investigators. 

[08Dawg]

21 hours ago, Homestar said:

I've watched some Juan Brown videos, I find his videos insightful...is he generally bad or just jumping the gun because of ignorance?

I find Juan Brown is usually at least respectful. Dan Gryder is condescending and exceedingly full of himself. 

[BFM this]

I find Juan Brown's approach to be:

-These are the known facts.

-For the lay person, this is the definition of what those facts mean, in plain english

-Tries to avoid speculation beyond historical trends.

Dan Gryder just can't help but go balls deep within the first 30" of any video.  He really lost me when he went after the AOPA Air Safety Institute director Richard McSpadden in a Nancy Grace style hit piece.