B-17 down @ Wings Over Dallas Airshow

[HuggyU2]

3 hours ago, BFM this said:

He  really lost me when he went after the AOPA Air Safety Institute director Richard McSpadden in a Nancy Grace style hit piece.

If you can find a working link to this video, I'd like to watch it. 

[BFM this]

I'll try to dig it up.  

The gist was McSpadden had been the TClone/CC when the Mt. Home mishap occurred, therefore did not measure up to Gryder's standard as worthy of his position with ASF.  All delivered in a breathless spittle laced diatribe, Nancy Grace style.

Worst I can say about Juan is that he tries to collaborate with DG, but that's a common YooToober tactic, to collaborate and do crossover episodes within subject spaces to share viewership with other content producers.

The rabbit holes that a google search will lead...  https://www.ajc.com/news/local/delta-suspends-jailed-pilot/kNz1A9uDMWVK106R6xOPnL/

🙄

Edited December 8, 2022 by BFM this

[Lord Ratner]

7 hours ago, BFM this said:

I'll try to dig it up.  

The gist was McSpadden had been the TClone/CC when the Mt. Home mishap occurred, therefore did not measure up to Gryder's standard as worthy of his position with ASF.  All delivered in a breathless spittle laced diatribe, Nancy Grace style.

Worst I can say about Juan is that he tries to collaborate with DG, but that's a common YooToober tactic, to collaborate and do crossover episodes within subject spaces to share viewership with other content producers.

The rabbit holes that a google search will lead...  https://www.ajc.com/news/local/delta-suspends-jailed-pilot/kNz1A9uDMWVK106R6xOPnL/

🙄

Huh, is almost like the attention-seeking type that are drawn to (YouTube) celebrity are also less stable than those who prefer a more normal existence.

[KODAK]

I think it’s legitimately possibly Gryder is mentally ill; if I’m being charitable, struggling deeply with profound personal issues and this is all an elaborate cry for help..

[KODAK]

On 12/7/2022 at 5:15 PM, BFM this said:

I find Juan Brown's approach to be:

-These are the known facts.

“Known facts” lol

The problem with Juan (and anyone in this space who doesn’t wait for the final mishap report to be released before speculating/ drawing conclusions on it) is that those “known facts” aren’t really known yet.  I am certain that neither of these gentleman were in the brief, have any airshow experience at all, etc.  So when they take the data that they have found on the internet as gospel and treat it as fact then the conclusions they draw, however minute or inconsequential, are therefore fruit of the poisoned tree.  An example: there is a reason the FAA does not reply upon FlightRadar24 ADS-B position data to issue flight violations - it’s known to be just inaccurate enough that no inspector is going to hang their hat on its fidelity.  But from many of these video’s aircraft airspeed airspeed/ heading/ altitude/ ground track is “known” because look at this fancy screenshot I found online.  Nope.. 

Anyway, maybe I’m being a snob about all of this, but if feels absolutely scummy to sell one’s poorly-informed speculation as fact (on a fatal mishap, mind you) and then in the next breath mention Patreon and all the ways your are digitally begging for money from your viewership.  If these individuals truly care about flight safety and respecting the memories of the fallen then I believe they would wait until the final report is issued (in a year or more, the horror) and then they can break down that report to their hearts content.  Anything less than that is a disservice to all involved.

[Blue]

On 12/3/2022 at 2:10 PM, uhhello said:

Pinned by blancolirio

Good to know.  This is what I read.  Granted it's on a youtube comment but he seems pretty adamant 

Matt

1 day ago

Juan, just to give some further context to your excellent reporting, the Air Boss was brand new. This was his first air show as the "Air Boss" and is the son of the former air boss who had retired the year before after a lengthy career as the Wings over Dallas Air Show air boss. According to pilots that were in the briefing prior to the show that day, they report that the briefing was lacking in various substantive and vital information such as altitude deconfliction yet no one including a FAA representative that was in attendance raised any concern about the inadequatenes of the briefing by this new air boss.

Juan Brown currently has this pinned as a "highlighted comment" below his video.  It was originally attributed to "Matt," whoever that is, and now is attributed to "Editor," although it's unclear who that is, too.

That comment has 440 replies, and the video has over half a million views.

As far as I can tell, it's a random comment, from a random person, and people see it pinned to a Juan Brown video and take it as gospel.

Aviation and Social Media are an interesting combination.  Aviation is one of those things that generally inspire people.  At the same time, the barrier to actually participating in aviation is high, both in money and time.  Social media fills in the gap for a lot of people - you can look at YouTube and consume all kinds of aviation-related media (some of it of incredibly high quality).

At the same time, "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king" holds true.  Chuckleheads like Juan Brown and Dan Gryder race to post on YouTube with a video collecting the available footage and data from an accident.  They present things in a digestible fashion for the general public.  But then they jump off the deep end and add their wild-eyed editorializing.  When they're wrong, there is no penalty.  When they're right, they get to tout to the online masses about what great aviators and detectives they are.  There is almost no downside for them.

They both found this new niche of "YouTube Aviation Accident Investigators," so I think a lot of their popularity is that they're first in the space.  I can only hope better competition comes along.

[SocialD]

2 hours ago, Blue said:

They both found this new niche of "YouTube Aviation Accident Investigators," so I think a lot of their popularity is that they're first in the space.  I can only hope better competition comes along.

 

 

Agreed on the rest of your post.  The problem is "better competition," as far as most professional pilots view it, would likely be boring content for youtube and you'd never see the channel on your feed.  As already has been said, many of these channels are not meant for you and I, mainly because there isn't enough pilots to get the viewership they need/want.  I'm into real estate and there are quite a few real estate "experts" on YouTube that make an insane amount of content.  Of course, there are discussions just like this going on in the real estate forums.  I'm sure the same can be said for every other topic out there...everyone loves to hate on anyone that becomes famous/popular.

 

Dudes found a niche, they went for it and they spend lots of time/effort into making a product that likely makes them quite a bit of coin.  I don't a particularly care for DG because he comes off as a smug, know it all.  I enjoy watching Juan's videos, but I also understand what it is and take it all with a huge grain of salt. 

[hindsight2020]

Pilots antagonized by occupational peers they deem clout whores? Shocker. Ain't that like, Tuesday in a fighter squadron? Don't answer that. 😄 #rhetorical 

 

 

[BFM this]

On 12/9/2022 at 10:12 AM, Blue said:

At the same time, "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king" holds true.  Chuckleheads like Juan Brown and Dan Gryder race to post on YouTube with a video collecting the available footage and data from an accident.  They present things in a digestible fashion for the general public.  But then they jump off the deep end and add their wild-eyed editorializing.  When they're wrong, there is no penalty.  When they're right, they get to tout to the online masses about what great aviators and detectives they are.  There is almost no downside for them.

They both found this new niche of "YouTube Aviation Accident Investigators," so I think a lot of their popularity is that they're first in the space.  I can only hope better competition comes along.

Can't argue with this or other posted perspectives on Juan or Dan; to clarify I just assess Juan is the attention whore with better manners, for what thats worth.

There are better alternatives, namely AVWEB and AOPA's Air Safety Foundation.  Unfortunately they don't compete in precisely the same space, as their immediate incident reporting is much more succinct and limited to details released by official sources.

[F.T.]

19 hours ago, BFM this said:

[...]

There are better alternatives, namely AVWEB and AOPA's Air Safety Foundation.  Unfortunately they don't compete in precisely the same space, as their immediate incident reporting is much more succinct and limited to details released by official sources.

The "Early Analysis" of Mr McSpadden (AOPA) on YouTube was my first source on the topic.
Now, after the release of the Preliminary Report of the NTSB it appears to me as an one-sided, sublime and refined blaming of Mr. Hutain, the fighter pilot.
In this highly praised analysis he puts forward one thesis, which assumptions does not match with the facts which were revealed shortly after.
The lack of an update and the tendency of the posts highlighted on YouTube, this all combined leaves more than a stale after-taste.

And then there is this article on the AOPA-page from December 7, 2022 by Alyssa J. Cobb, which reads like an justification of the airboss. Quote: "In this case, the aircraft had sequential separation with the fighter formation instructed to fly in front of the bomber formation and lateral separation with the two different show lines."
Completely disregarding the decisive question about crossing flight-paths at the same altitude.

How is that seen by the experts?

(Sorry for mistakes - no native-speaker)

[Biff_T]

I did my own investigation.  MP f-cked up the rejoin and hit Mishap bomber.  

[brabus]

Agreed they hate America, but this also isn’t an event I expect (or want) politicians to officially comment on. Maybe local level in a condolences way, at most.

[HuggyU2]

UnWoke: buh bye, you piece of shit.  

Edited December 18, 2022 by HuggyU2

[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, HuggyU2 said:

UnWoke: buh bye, you piece of shit.  

He’s gone

[Springer]

On 12/14/2022 at 10:37 AM, Biff_T said:

I did my own investigation.  MP f-cked up the rejoin and hit Mishap bomber.  

You might change your mind.

Air show audio is out....much worse than I thought.  If the briefing was anything like the show I would have taken my million dollar plane and gone home.

[Lord Ratner]

On 1/14/2023 at 2:18 AM, Springer said:

You might change your mind.

Air show audio is out....much worse than I thought.  If the briefing was anything like the show I would have taken my million dollar plane and gone home.

Cliffs notes?

[Danger41]

14 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Cliffs notes?

IMHO, not as bad as is being made out and not the dog balls root cause. To me, the comms were overly descriptive vice directive a few times and definitely seemed to deviate from the brief. However, as we all know, you don’t just sled on in with zero SA because someone says something. I’ll be the first to admit I’ve switched up left/right, east/west, etc.

Very sad deal all the way around.

[Danger41]

Here’s the video I watched. I think this is the Juan guy referenced earlier but not sure.

[brabus]

I know nothing about the specifics of how airbosses run air shows, so please excuse the following ignorance. Why are demos like this ran by a guy telling everyone what to do? In the mil we execute far more complex shit with far greater risks and way more aircraft, all without anyone directing our every move. We plan, brief, and execute with a decon plan. Seems the airboss directing things should be only as required to avoid an impending safety issue or gameplan about to go awry. The actual show execution should be done without airboss inject and IAW a plan that includes contracts and decon.

[HuggyU2]

5 hours ago, brabus said:

In the mil we execute far more complex shit with far greater risks and way more aircraft...

Apples and oranges.  

How do you claim "far greater risks" when you have no experience doing the warbird thing so that you can compare the two?  You can't, so don't.  

Generically, there IS a pre-briefed decon plan with contracts. 

Generically, the Boss acts as an air traffic controller when he needs to and let's the parade progress as briefed. 

[brabus]

Wasn’t meant to be a spear, I’m honestly interested in learning. You’re right, I can’t directly compare the two, hence my question.

Your generic answers makes it sound like it is pretty similar to mil ops, but doesn’t seem like that’s how at least this one went down. 

[HuggyU2]

My opinion is that it is vastly different than mil ops.  Keep in mind that a large percentage (and I'd guess the majority) of the warbird pilots are not ex-military pilots.  

I'm not up to writing a detailed post on the specifics, however.  

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by HuggyU2

[hindsight2020]

I really don't think he meant anything by it Huggy, no need for the notch/auto-chaff. I know this sub-sector of the hobby is close to your vest.

Back to the point, the question I would pose is: would the airboss' actions, especially the audible to shackle show lanes while co-altitude with both elements flying trail internally, be considered "customary" to the organization and/or other airbosses writ large?

I think that is a point of exploration that can shine a light on accepted practices, inside or outside CAF. One that could also lead to potential re-evaluation or tightening, in the furtherance of safety. It may be too late for all we know, but that will be for the regulators and the insurance market to adjudicate, as I've pointed out in the past. 

I continue to hold my position that to home-on-jam on Hutain's individual execution within this audible, is reductive to a fault. But that's just one man's opinion. 

Everybody stay safe out there. 🤙

[HuggyU2]

28 minutes ago, hindsight2020 said:

I really don't think he meant anything by it Huggy, no need for the notch/auto-chaff. I know this sub-sector of the hobby is close to your vest.

You're right.  And I don't know why you think I'm butt-hurt by it.  I simply pointed out that... based on my experiences in both worlds... he hadn't seen it from both sides and wasn't in a position to make a valid observation.  No emotion here.  I don't know Brabus but have enjoyed reading his posts for many years.  

If your questions, Hindsight, are aimed at me, I'm sorry but I'm not willing to discuss the specifics of this event or my opinions on it.  

p.s. "notch/autochaff"?  Know your audience.  I'm a U-2 guy.  In a defensive scenario, we put our fingers in our ears so the explosion of the missile impact doesn't give us hearing loss... which could affect our future airline employment.  

Edited January 16, 2023 by HuggyU2

[hindsight2020]

1 hour ago, HuggyU2 said:

You're right.  And I don't know why you think I'm butt-hurt by it.  I simply pointed out that... based on my experiences in both worlds... he hadn't seen it from both sides and wasn't in a position to make a valid observation.  No emotion here.  I don't know Brabus but have enjoyed reading his posts for many years.  

If your questions, Hindsight, are aimed at me, I'm sorry but I'm not willing to discuss the specifics of this event or my opinions on it.  

p.s. "notch/autochaff"?  Know your audience.  I'm a U-2 guy.  In a defensive scenario, we put our fingers in our ears so the explosion of the missile impact doesn't give us hearing loss... which could affect our future airline employment.  

Maybe it's the written format on the forums, that makes inflection/tone difficult to put together. Apologies if I misread the incorrect inflection.

Yeah my question was merely posted in the interest of keeping the conversation going for everybody; though I was genuinely interested in your perspective, since I know you're closer to the CAF than most on here. No worries though, I copy loud and clear you're not willing to discuss further. Cheers 🍺