Am I Going About Visits Wrong? Should I Cast a Wider Net?

[JohnClark]

I'm trying to keep this short. I think as many may know for most of the last 2 years, it was very difficult to get visits/rushing opportunities to units due to COVID. It seems like by summer of this year, units started to soften their restrictions and begun allowing rushing opportunities. Anyway, I've been trying to rush Heavy Units largely in the Northeast. That's where I am from, plus I play hockey and love the fall/autumn. I have had two units where I had multiple visits with and turn an app but not selected for an interview. Neither unit was able to give me feed back. Both basically said they had received too many apps and can't give everyone feed back.

Now this is where I wonder what I can do better during visits. Yes my test scores are mediocre (Pilot score in the 70s and Nav in the 40s) and I don't yet have a PPL (was getting close and then recent financial set back), I'm sure both could easily be the reason why I was selected and that's fine. I'm trying to work on both.

But It does kind of bother me that after I visit a unit multiple times, they couldn't give me specific feedback? Am I asking for too much? Am I being entitled for wanting specific feedback? Also is their anything I should be doing at visits? I know there are other threads on the subject and they give common sense advice "Don't be an @sshole." "Don't be awkward" "Ask questions and listen."

I ask because when I go to visits, I try and talk to everyone from the unit. The pilots, the Navs, Boom operators, Loadmasters, HR Personal, Fuel Systems personal, maintenance, Cyber, etc. I talk to everyone. Even at the visits, the pilots and officers tell me it's awesome I talk to everyone since a lot of people only talk to pilots. Aside from military/flying, I try to relate to everyone other ways. I grew playing hockey and both units have hockey teams so I talk about that, fishing, hunting, cars, music, etc. Usually by the second or third visit, people do remember me. I also bring a bottle of Whisky as a gift for the squadron.

However, it's kind of disheartening when I don't get the interview or at least get feedback as to why. I'm over 30 and I know age is also not on my side. Should I maybe cast a wider net and start looking at other regions of the country? Would I still be a good fit?

Edited November 14, 2022 by JohnClark

[LookieRookie]

Get a PPL and improve your AFOQT.

 

How is your GPA?

[Khruangbin33]

Are you going about visits wrong?  No, I don't think so.

Should you cast a wider net?  Yes.  If you don't ask (in the form of visits/applying), the answer (interview/hiring letter), is always going to be no.

Your average hiring board members are juggling civilian work/life, military quals/currency, and day-to-day unit admin on top of finding people to invest in.  They're going to go for hard numbers and quals first before looking at your subjective information.

I would break this down into things you can and can't control.

Things you can control:

• Your stats and quals (AFOQT, TBAS, PPL)
• Who you ask for letters of recommendation
• The units you reach out to
• Your interviewing and socializing skills

I realize that a wider net and a PPL are financially resource-intensive efforts, so I can't make that value judgment for you, but the other aspects don't cost much to practice or develop.

Things you can't control:

• The way units choose to sort through hundreds of applicants
• The way they notify individuals of non-selection
• Your age

This is a tough path and there are no easy solutions, only tradeoffs.  Take a look at how badly you want this, and what you are/are not willing to do to get there.

[JohnClark]

4 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

Get a PPL and improve your AFOQT.

 

How is your GPA?

GPA is 3.85 with a Master's.

Just struggling with trying to find a steady salaried job to afford a PPL.

I'm having a hard time getting anyone to let me retake the AFOQT. MEPS, ROTC Units or On Base.

[O Face]

@JohnClark

In addition to everything @Khruangbin33 said, allow me to shed a bit of light on the ANG hiring process and maybe this will help you out as well.

First, everyone reads about current Pilot shortages and military recruiting target shortfalls and believes that it must apply across the board - it doesn’t.  ANG UPT slots are very finite. We’re talking 1 or possibly 2 per year for a unit. (There’s been a few instances of more, but there’s way more examples of less). So when a unit announces a hiring board, they receive hundreds of applications for that 1 or 2 slots. Thus, the unit can be extremely selective. The next step is to whittle the applicants down to a manageable number of interviews. This is where your application is getting stuffed in the “NO” pile. Your very low AFOQT scores coupled with your age, and the fact that you’re not a known quantity make you an easy kill. Don’t feel too badly, as you have plenty of company.  ANG units do not have the funding to dedicate a large amount of manpower to this pilot selection process full time. Consequently, the Squadron Commander/Chief Pilot is going to instruct those reviewing applications to only invite people with high scores, no waivers, low age, etc. to an interview.  Now comes the subjective part. Units will often make exceptions for people with lower scores or require an age waiver, etc if they know them and their work ethic - ie Loadmasters, Boom Operators, Crew Chiefs, or possibly a high time Civ pilot, and so on. Unfortunately for you, you’re none of those either.  So, the answer to why you’re not getting an interview or even feedback is because you’re low hanging fruit at this point.  My unit will provide feedback to interviewees who were not selected, but that’s it. To give feedback to the hundreds of applicants who were not selected for interview would take an enormous amount of time that nobody has. This is not any different from the civilian world. If FedEx hasn’t called you for an interview, they certainly are not going to assign someone to sit down with you and discuss your shortcomings. They’ve already moved on and are looking for someone else to help them out. 
 

All this to say, while you’re doing the right thing by going to meet and greets, you’re still an easy kill. So, the question is what to do about it?  First, study your ass off for the AFOQT and retake it. You only get 2, so make this one count.  Second, get the folks at Bogi Dope to help out with your applications. Third, absolutely go shopping around to other units as well as Active Duty and sister services too.
Lastly, if you’re dead set on staying in the NE US and have the heavy unit picked out already, Consider enlisting as Loadmaster or Boom. I realize time is not on your side, however, if you’re over 30 already, units will be looking at the age waiver possibility already, and unless you’re a unit member - who they like a lot - the chances of getting selected off the street while requiring an age waiver are extremely slim.  
 

I hope this helps, best of luck. 
 

 

[JohnClark]

4 hours ago, O Face said:

@JohnClark

In addition to everything @Khruangbin33 said, allow me to shed a bit of light on the ANG hiring process and maybe this will help you out as well.

First, everyone reads about current Pilot shortages and military recruiting target shortfalls and believes that it must apply across the board - it doesn’t.  ANG UPT slots are very finite. We’re talking 1 or possibly 2 per year for a unit. (There’s been a few instances of more, but there’s way more examples of less). So when a unit announces a hiring board, they receive hundreds of applications for that 1 or 2 slots. Thus, the unit can be extremely selective. The next step is to whittle the applicants down to a manageable number of interviews. This is where your application is getting stuffed in the “NO” pile. Your very low AFOQT scores coupled with your age, and the fact that you’re not a known quantity make you an easy kill. Don’t feel too badly, as you have plenty of company.  ANG units do not have the funding to dedicate a large amount of manpower to this pilot selection process full time. Consequently, the Squadron Commander/Chief Pilot is going to instruct those reviewing applications to only invite people with high scores, no waivers, low age, etc. to an interview.  Now comes the subjective part. Units will often make exceptions for people with lower scores or require an age waiver, etc if they know them and their work ethic - ie Loadmasters, Boom Operators, Crew Chiefs, or possibly a high time Civ pilot, and so on. Unfortunately for you, you’re none of those either.  So, the answer to why you’re not getting an interview or even feedback is because you’re low hanging fruit at this point.  My unit will provide feedback to interviewees who were not selected, but that’s it. To give feedback to the hundreds of applicants who were not selected for interview would take an enormous amount of time that nobody has. This is not any different from the civilian world. If FedEx hasn’t called you for an interview, they certainly are not going to assign someone to sit down with you and discuss your shortcomings. They’ve already moved on and are looking for someone else to help them out. 
 

All this to say, while you’re doing the right thing by going to meet and greets, you’re still an easy kill. So, the question is what to do about it?  First, study your ass off for the AFOQT and retake it. You only get 2, so make this one count.  Second, get the folks at Bogi Dope to help out with your applications. Third, absolutely go shopping around to other units as well as Active Duty and sister services too.
Lastly, if you’re dead set on staying in the NE US and have the heavy unit picked out already, Consider enlisting as Loadmaster or Boom. I realize time is not on your side, however, if you’re over 30 already, units will be looking at the age waiver possibility already, and unless you’re a unit member - who they like a lot - the chances of getting selected off the street while requiring an age waiver are extremely slim.  
 

I hope this helps, best of luck. 
 

 

Thanks for the insight. I've been trying for months now to see if I can retake the AFOQT. Just having a tough time getting it scheduled. largely due to age. For every unit I've applied and visited, I did use Bogidope's App Review. Both times my Bogidope Coach was stunned I actually didn't get an interview or at least an email with some Feedback.

One of the units, I did technically get an interview but they changed their mind the week of, two days before I was about to leave and still haven't given me feedback as to why.

I've tried active duty and other services but have had no luck. I did take the ASTB for the Navy, did OK but have been ghosted by every recruiter. I was looking into the Army and Army National Guard Flying and Coast Guard now is well.

[O Face]

1 hour ago, JohnClark said:

Thanks for the insight. I've been trying for months now to see if I can retake the AFOQT. Just having a tough time getting it scheduled. largely due to age. For every unit I've applied and visited, I did use Bogidope's App Review. Both times my Bogidope Coach was stunned I actually didn't get an interview or at least an email with some Feedback.

One of the units, I did technically get an interview but they changed their mind the week of, two days before I was about to leave and still haven't given me feedback as to why.

I've tried active duty and other services but have had no luck. I did take the ASTB for the Navy, did OK but have been ghosted by every recruiter. I was looking into the Army and Army National Guard Flying and Coast Guard now is well.

Well, sounds like you’ve been shaking the trees for sure. Keep after it. I’m not sure why you haven’t been able to schedule another AFOQT though. It’s not like there’s a limited number of tests to hand out to people.  Only limit is the twice a guy can take it. You’ve only done it once, correct?  Maybe call your nearest Active Duty Officer recruiter and tell them you’d like to schedule it?  
As far as the unit bailing on your interview after inviting you already, that’s pretty weak. It’s their prerogative, but I certainly would have given you an explanation at least.  Do you have any other disqualifying conditions such as physical limitations, arrest record, drug use, etc?  Maybe go get that hockey mullet trimmed up a bit?  Other than that, keep after those Officer recruiters and get those scores up. It’s too easy to say no when one has shitty scores.  Finally, like I stated earlier, consider enlisting, as a flyer, in a heavy unit. You’re not going to find a bigger advantage out there - assuming you’re a good dude that they like to fly with. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by O Face
Content

[JohnClark]

1 hour ago, O Face said:

Well, sounds like you’ve been shaking the trees for sure. Keep after it. I’m not sure why you haven’t been able to schedule another AFOQT though. It’s not like there’s a limited number of tests to hand out to people.  Only limit is the twice a guy can take it. You’ve only done it once, correct?  Maybe call your nearest Active Duty Officer recruiter and tell them you’d like to schedule it?  
As far as the unit bailing on your interview after inviting you already, that’s pretty weak. It’s their prerogative, but I certainly would have given you an explanation at least.  Do you have any other disqualifying conditions such as physical limitations, arrest record, drug use, etc?  Maybe go get that hockey mullet trimmed up a bit?  Other than that, keep after those Officer recruiters and get those scores up. It’s too easy to say no when one has shitty scores.  Finally, like I stated earlier, consider enlisting, as a flyer, in a heavy unit. You’re not going to find a bigger advantage out there - assuming you’re a good dude that they like to fly with. 

I'm still baffled as to why they cancelled. I have very little social media presence. Nothing political, controversial nor racy. No drug use, no physical limitations, no arrests not even a speeding ticket. My hair is short. The picture on my application was a head shot of me in a suit.

Officer recruiters are tough and always have been. The first time to schedule the AFOQT it took me almost 2 years. Part of that was I didn't have a degree yet, then COVID happened. Now it's mostly age. It seems the odd chance I do get an officer recruiter on the phone or via text, they either tell me my age is too high (I'm 30) or they have too many applicants now and ghost me. I've tried ROTC units as well and it seems a lot don't allow non-cadets to take the test anymore. I've tried bases but all of them say, I need a military I.D. to get on base.

The first time I finally managed to get the AFOQT done in the middle of COVID, it was an out of state Reserve Recruiter. After my test results came back, he told me through email that my scores were too low and then ghosted me. It took me six more months with another out of state recruiter to get the TBAS done and that recruiter is no longer active. 

I'll look into enlisting again. I didn't before as I was afraid getting deployed since I was an older college student and wanted to finish.

[7thokage]

I mean absolutely no offense, but you’re likely not hitting it off with them socially. Willing to guarantee you that this is the issue.

Yes, scores are important... but that’s something that can be overlooked if they like you a lot.

I would reflect - honestly - on how genuine your social experiences have been. Secondly, I would stop excluding the allocations to your regional area. Consider expanding the search.

Edit: Your age, scores, and lack of PPL are all negative things working against you. You *have* to make up for that by being extraordinary in other areas.


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[MeekTiger0824]

22 hours ago, 7thokage said:

I mean absolutely no offense, but you’re likely not hitting it off with them socially. Willing to guarantee you that this is the issue.

This might be it. Granted I haven't been chosen as a finalist, but have rushed squadrons and got invited to interview.  I've been to rush events with other candidates and could just see how some of them don't hit it off or are just pricks to other rushees.  One guy stands out in mind, I would be having a conversation and the guy would just cut in and interrupt me, downplaying me because I'm off the street. "Yeah well I'm a blackhawk mechanic, so I understand service unlike off the street guys".  One senior loadmaster saw what was going on and told the dude to go talk to a Colonel who was plastered and then he joined me to finish up our conversation. Didn't see the dude at interviews.

Also be genuine and try to get to know them, I feel these guys can spot brownnosers well.  I also saw it as trying to figure out if I would enjoy being around them for 10+ years. It works both ways, you're also in a way interviewing them too.

I would look into bumping your scores. Last heavy unit I talked to, had a 90 pilot score cutoff.  You mention issues with trying to take AFOQT and TBAS.  I was 31 when I took my tests, I had to call every ROTC and AF recruiter down the coast to give me a chance to take the tests. I wasn't the only one, when I talked to other interview candidates they had the same experiences, think of it as a rite of passage 🙂