F-35 Down in Ft. Worth // Pilot Ejected

[Prozac]

2 hours ago, nunya said:

I don't get your point. It's the same place that says the AF needs stealth, the Army needs dune buggies, and the Navy needs fleshlights. The puzzle palace people wrote a requirements report, lobbied, and got it approved.

If you're arguing the Marines don't need VTOL to accomplish their mission, ok, argue that VTOL is unnecessary and the Marines should have CVs. If you're arguing the Navy can provide the required airpower, that's incorrect.

I’m arguing we already have jarheads on CVNs and they’re already reliant on USN to drive their assault ships anyway. The idea of fully contained Marine forces is nice, but it’s far from reality. Let them have their fixed wing assets - I get that a Marine pilot has a unique outlook on supporting grunts. I just have trouble understanding what VTOL really brings to the fight and/or why it’s worth the expense. Anyway, didn’t mean to derail the thread. That mishap looked like a wild ride. Glad the pilot got out safely. 🍺

[Bigred]

4 hours ago, Majestik Møøse said:

When’s the last time any of us has worked with Marine infantry at an LFE? I’m trying to remember the last time I worked with Marines at all in training; it was probably their C2 guys in a tent. When do you think the last time a Harrier or C-model Hornet squadron worked with other Marines?  Rhetorical.

When it comes to a MEF/MEB/MEU, the Marines are always the best option to support other Marines. I sure as shit wouldn’t trust my survival on another service showing up; we’re all too busy with our own activities. When the Navy has to choose between CAS and Carrier survival, or the Air Force has to choose between CAS and DCA and strike package size / regen rates and also Carrier survival, support for a thousand Marine infantry holding or advancing to an objective is going to get backburnered. Even the resupply from other services will have to be fought for at every instance, which is why a quarter of Marine expeditionary units is dedicated for logistics support, Hercs and all. They’re geared to survive by themselves for 30-60 days, because they’ll have to. It’s actually a pretty enviable setup, because it’s self-contained “joint” by nature and commanded by a guy that knows what he’s doing.

Maybe Red can shed more light.

You pretty much nailed it.

The MEU, and the ARG/ESG by extension, doesn’t rely on any CV support.

The concept that everyone’s job in the Marines, regardless of specialty or expertise, is to support the private with a rifle. That same mindset and focus doesn’t exist in other branches. Accordingly, the Marines organize and conduct themselves in a way to achieve that primary goal.

[Homestar]

We’re talking about the Navy’s Army’s Air Force. 

[Majestik Møøse]

10 hours ago, Homestar said:

We’re talking about the Navy’s Army’s Air Force. 

That they need due to lack of trust in other services to be there when they need it. And they’re right, based on both history and one what other services will be forced to focus on. They Navy will support the ships needed to get them to disembarkation, then they’re on their own as the Navy’s attention wanes.

The best jet for Marine Air maybe wouldn’t be an F-35B if everyone had a do-over, but it’s certainly better than a Harrier, and it’s theirs now.

[Clark Griswold]

3 hours ago, Majestik Møøse said:

That they need due to lack of trust in other services to be there when they need it. And they’re right, based on both history and one what other services will be forced to focus on. They Navy will support the ships needed to get them to disembarkation, then they’re on their own as the Navy’s attention wanes.

The best jet for Marine Air maybe wouldn’t be an F-35B if everyone had a do-over, but it’s certainly better than a Harrier, and it’s theirs now.

That assumes they (the USMC) will be doing the same mission sets as they did in the past, with the development of long-range precision fires, persistent ISR and other systems (small drones, loitering munitions, etc...) I doubt the future will look like the past, similar but also significantly different.

USMC also doubtful of the big amphibious landings too now:  The questionable future of amphibious assault (brookings.edu)

I think they should have their own air fleet but it's crazy to think in a major conventional fight that they will be own their own for weeks at a time.  Methinks it's not crazy for them to be a self-contained deterrence force against certain adversaries and to put down small wars / limited contingency ops (NEO being a great example) requiring a certain amount of conventional combined arms power to execute successfully. 

I suggested the Sea Gripen earlier as it is a pretty good example of what I think is the right level of capability & affordability, probably not enough to conduct Forcible Entry style operations but enough to respond and repel aggression at the edges and corners of our areas of interest.  

That type of system based on a more capable boat (angle deck, ski jump, amphib well) but smaller than a nuke CVN, should have been the solution methinks.

 

[brabus]

5 minutes ago, Clark Griswold said:

Methinks it's not crazy for them to be a self-contained deterrence force against certain adversaries and to put down small wars / limited contingency ops (NEO being a great example) requiring a certain amount of conventional combined arms power to execute successfully.

That’s exactly where they fit in the modern and near future world. I think we need the general capability for things like a kinetic NEO in some 3rd world shithole. But the Marines will do none of their doctrine in the peer fights for many weeks, if not months. And by the time we MAYBE execute somewhat along their doctrine, it won’t be in a situation where F-35s or similar tech is even remotely required, or even decently suited, to achieve the desired end state.

@Majestik Møøse Absolutely we’re at the “it is what it is” phase, but that doesn’t change the fact this was an epic acquisitions failure made by people who don’t know shit except for how to line their’s and their friend’s pockets to the max.

Edited December 22, 2022 by brabus

[Standby]

6 hours ago, brabus said:

I think we need the general capability for things like a kinetic NEO in some 3rd world shithole.

Totally agree! Nothing says non-combatant evacuation operations like AGR-20s coming off the rails of the AC-17 Globe-Swatter before swooping in to pick up a bunch of TCNs.

I kid, but I have to poke fun at our institutional overuse of the word kinetic.

[M2]

On 12/20/2022 at 5:29 PM, nunya said:

I don't get your point. It's the same place that says the AF needs stealth, the Army needs dune buggies, and the Navy needs fleshlights. The puzzle palace people wrote a requirements report, lobbied, and got it approved.

If you're arguing the Marines don't need VTOL to accomplish their mission, ok, argue that VTOL is unnecessary and the Marines should have CVs. If you're arguing the Navy can provide the required airpower, that's incorrect.

I am pretty sure that was his point, and it's valid.

There's no reason for the F-35B.

[Homestar]

If the state of Vermont can have a 5th gen fighter, then the Marine Corps can too. 

[brabus]

Tell me how you have zero SA without saying you have zero SA.

[M2]

We've had this discussion a decade ago...

[SocialD]

16 hours ago, brabus said:

Tell me how you have zero SA without saying you have zero SA.

 

 

I mean...nobody cares if we save Ben & Jerry's 

[Danger41]

23 minutes ago, SocialD said:

 

 

I mean...nobody cares if we save Ben & Jerry's 

Fuuuuck that! We need every 5th Gen, top of the line, BAMF we can get to ensure the flow of Tonight Dough doesn’t slow down.

[brabus]

6 hours ago, SocialD said:

 

 

I mean...nobody cares if we save Ben & Jerry's 

True, fuck those guys! Haven’t given them a cent for 6 years.

[bfargin]

Ben and Jerry’s founders used to help coordinate anti nuke events and demonstrations in Burlington and Pburgh in the late 1980s and then the next week they’d have reps at the Plattsburgh BX selling all of us 1/2 price ice cream. It’s owned by Unilever now but that was back when they were smaller and privately owned.

[brabus]

1 hour ago, bfargin said:

Ben and Jerry’s founders used to help coordinate anti nuke events and demonstrations in Burlington and Pburgh in the late 1980s and then the next week they’d have reps at the Plattsburgh BX selling all of us 1/2 price ice cream. It’s owned by Unilever now but that was back when they were smaller and privately owned.

They’re classic progressives - hypocritical shitbags. Unilever is no better. 

[Biff_T]

You can never fail with a DQ Blizzard!!! Lol

[SocialD]

Two of the worst places I've ever flown wrt noise abatement rules are Madison and Burlington.  They both have ridiculously dumb rules to appease the America hating, granola eating, self-fart sniffing, smug cloud following, pinko-commie bastards that hate the sound of freedom over their neighborhoods.  So it makes sense that they'd drop F-35s in both of those locations.  It's genius...big fuck you to hippies (Ben & Jerry's being one) in both locations.