Civilian ratings / jobs after training

[bs98]

For anyone here who left for UPT training holding only a PPL or similar, what were your civilian ratings / job opportunities afterward returning home and going part time status? From what I read online, it sounds like commercial and instrument ratings are awarded after an FAA proficiency test. I'd love to hear how many hours you all came home with after UPT, air frame training, and seasoning orders. All PIC time? What jobs were available with your experience level? I understand this will vary greatly between aircraft, and even down to the individual unit but I'd like to start a conversation and hear from anyone willing to share.

For context, I am applying to units and have a good civilian, non-flying government job, but eventually would like to fly full time. I am not going into the application process assuming I can guard bum. 

[CaptainMorgan]

For anyone here who left for UPT training holding only a PPL or similar, what were your civilian ratings / job opportunities afterward returning home and going part time status? From what I read online, it sounds like commercial and instrument ratings are awarded after an FAA proficiency test. I'd love to hear how many hours you all came home with after UPT, air frame training, and seasoning orders. All PIC time? What jobs were available with your experience level? I understand this will vary greatly between aircraft, and even down to the individual unit but I'd like to start a conversation and hear from anyone willing to share.
For context, I am applying to units and have a good civilian, non-flying government job, but eventually would like to fly full time. I am not going into the application process assuming I can guard bum. 

PIC time: If you go heavies, it’ll be zero. Figure on spending a minimum of two years before upgrading to AC. Fighters will be PIC, but I can’t speak to how quickly you can build hours.
Flying job opportunities: nothing that pays very well until you can get your R-ATP.


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[nunya]

5 hours ago, CaptainMorgan said:

PIC time: If you go heavies, it’ll be zero.

That depends on who is defining PIC and what the definition of is is.

[bs98]

6 hours ago, nunya said:

That depends on who is defining PIC and what the definition of is is.

Could you elaborate on this? As far as the FAA is concerned, would a heavy pilot be commercial and multi engine instrument rated ?

[mcbush]

14 minutes ago, bs98 said:

Could you elaborate on this? As far as the FAA is concerned, would a heavy pilot be commercial and multi engine instrument rated ?

You can get both of those after UPT via the military competency process. To nunya's point, you can also try to argue the FAA's "sole manipulator of the controls" doctrine to claim some PIC time, but most outfits are only going to let you claim PIC if you signed for the aircraft. 

 

12 hours ago, CaptainMorgan said:

Flying job opportunities: nothing that pays very well until you can get your R-ATP.

As far as I know, this is the right conclusion.

[nunya]

41 minutes ago, mcbush said:

you can also try to argue the FAA's "sole manipulator of the controls" doctrine to claim some PIC time, but most outfits are only going to let you claim PIC if you signed for the aircraft. 

Yes, that was my point, but without the negative implication. 

At the low end of the industry, PIC = FAR 61.51 PIC. If you are looking at low end CFI or banner flying jobs and they ask you for your PIC, you give them the FAR 61.51 number, including sole manipulator. If you're applying at FedEx, they will specify that you only give them the I-signed-for-the-aircraft number. 

To your original question… You’ll probably have 300-400 hours when you finish UPT and training. Your clearest path to aviation industry profit after UPT is to whore yourself out to every TDY, deployment, and exercise you can to get 750 on the .mil dime, no matter your airframe. Once you get 750, go to a regional and the path from there is pretty well established.

If you want to go a non-airline route, there are many, many paths through the woods. They're much less established and will take networking legwork,  but they can certainly be more interesting than DFW-OKC.

[bs98]

10 hours ago, nunya said:

Yes, that was my point, but without the negative implication. 

At the low end of the industry, PIC = FAR 61.51 PIC. If you are looking at low end CFI or banner flying jobs and they ask you for your PIC, you give them the FAR 61.51 number, including sole manipulator. If you're applying at FedEx, they will specify that you only give them the I-signed-for-the-aircraft number. 

To your original question… You’ll probably have 300-400 hours when you finish UPT and training. Your clearest path to aviation industry profit after UPT is to whore yourself out to every TDY, deployment, and exercise you can to get 750 on the .mil dime, no matter your airframe. Once you get 750, go to a regional and the path from there is pretty well established.

If you want to go a non-airline route, there are many, many paths through the woods. They're much less established and will take networking legwork,  but they can certainly be more interesting than DFW-OKC.

Thank you sincerely for laying this out so clearly, haven't come across anything as succinct as this on the internet yet. 

It sounds like regionals will accept the 61.51 PIC time as part of the 750 mil R-ATP? Also, I'd love to hear any of your favorite non-traditional flying jobs. Being in and out of commercial airports doesn't interest me a whole bunch. I've also noticed an unfortunate vagueness whenever I've asked someone about their pay as a corporate / search and rescue / medevac pilot.

[CaptainMorgan]

Thank you sincerely for laying this out so clearly, haven't come across anything as succinct as this on the internet yet. 
It sounds like regionals will accept the 61.51 PIC time as part of the 750 mil R-ATP? Also, I'd love to hear any of your favorite non-traditional flying jobs. Being in and out of commercial airports doesn't interest me a whole bunch. I've also noticed an unfortunate vagueness whenever I've asked someone about their pay as a corporate / search and rescue / medevac pilot.

For FAA purposes when getting your R-ATP, SIC in a heavy counts as PIC. Don’t list this time as PIC on an airline app unless the airline specifically allows it. As far as I know everyone, including regionals, only counts time as PIC if you signed for the jet or are logging Instructor or Evaluator hours. That said, you don’t need any PIC time to get picked up at most regionals, just an R-ATP. Some of the Legacies have even dropped the PIC requirement and made it “preferred.”


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[nunya]

6 hours ago, bs98 said:

It sounds like regionals will accept the 61.51 PIC time as part of the 750 mil R-ATP?

The regionals aren’t the ones awarding you your R-ATP, the FAA is. And they explicitly say follow 61.51 rules.

https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/pilots/training/atp/ATP_AME_Job_Aid_GA.pdf