Haiti thread - to intervene or not...

[Clark Griswold]

So, there's a country starting to dissolve in our hemisphere, not far from our shores and I've been casually following the story.  It's awful, it's becoming a problem spilling over its borders and starting to directly affect us vis a vis illegal immigration and becoming an ungoverned space that will become a base for illegal activities throughout the Caribbean and Americas.

Do we intervene, stabilize and prevent the collapse of the state?  I'm fairly cynical on the idea of nation building but I'm not for letting problems just build in our sphere and letting us be affected by them when we could prevent it.  I'm not sure it's nation building we should do versus just plain old occupation / stabilization and stating this is done in the interest of the USA, not bending logic and trying to spin it but just stating matter of fact we're doing this to prevent a larger humanitarian problem and reasonably trying to help the Haitians.  

Fear, violence and chaos grip Haiti as gangs seize control | PBS News Weekend

Other nations have said they would help or participate in a stabilization operation, the UN would be involved, and the goals would be very realistic.

Thoughts?

[Danger41]

1. Change DoD back to “War Department”

2. 51st State with capital city “Formerly Known as Port au Prince”

3. Profit?

Kidding but at this point, that’s probably not a bad idea. Every few years this sort of thing happens there.

[herkbum]

I remember going there in 94 to oust Cedras and reinstall Aristide. My 4 month Haitian Vacation. Didn’t work out then. Not sure it would be any different now.


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[HeloDude]

No

[uhhello]

Why not?  We're on a burner of a hot streak sorting out nation states.  Lets keep the train rolling. 

[O Face]

Since the Mafia lost Havana back in 57, how about we let them have another go in the Caribbean? Put up some nice casinos along the beach?

[Blue]

Hasn't Haiti been more or less on the brink of being a failed state for the past......forever?

I remember someone opining once about all the great things Hattian immigrants have done in the US, and their impressive accomplishments here.  And how sad it is that all that talent couldn't be leveraged in their home country.

I'm sure the problems of the country are multifaceted, and an onion that goes 1000 layers deep.  This board has a wide readership, maybe someone will come along and offer a perspective that goes beyond my Wikipedia-deep knowledge of the place.

Someone has to lead the charge, but it shouldn't be Uncle Sam, due to our relatively poor track record in that respect.  Haiti shared Hispaniola Island with the Dominican Republic.  Surely the D.R. has a vested interest in the health of their neighbor.   The linked article also talks about Jamaica taking a role.

Taking a quick look at Haiti on Google Maps and waving my ill-informed but well-intentioned magic wand: Tell Cuba we'll open up trade and relations - no strings attached - as long as they provide a safe haven for the Haitians.  Don't we have some mothballed Cold War bases in Puerto Rico?  Open those up, and make it a staging area for supplies.

All I know is Haiti has a population of about 12 million people.  That's a lot of people.  That's a lot of humanity.  If we have the ability, we should do something.  At the same time, it seems like every time we "do something" on the global stage, it goes horribly wrong.

I dunno.

 

 

 

 

[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, Blue said:

All I know is Haiti has a population of about 12 million people.  That's a lot of people.  That's a lot of humanity.  If we have the ability, we should do something. 

I hear you man…haven’t done a lot of research on this one particularly, but if they’re legit, I’m sure they could use your help.

https://www.savethechildren.org/us/where-we-work/haiti

[Majestik Møøse]

Dude, no. If other agencies and departments are at work, let them continue. Military involvement? Absolutely not. There is no end state, let the people sort it out.

[dream big]

Hell no! I love this country but we have burned every country we have touched in the last 30 years. Secure our borders first and foremost before nation building in Latin America. 
 

It truly is awful in Haiti, I remember when a certain POTUS called it a Shit Hole in jest and everyone lost their minds. Perhaps an understatement. 

[herkbum]

Hell no! I love this country but we have burned every country we have touched in the last 30 years. Secure our borders first and foremost before nation building in Latin America. 
 
It truly is awful in Haiti, I remember when a certain POTUS called it a Shit Hole in jest and everyone lost their minds. Perhaps an understatement. 

It’s a definite shithole. One of the dirtiest places I have ever been. But it could be a great vacation place if anyone cared about it, especially the local population. I remember the amount of trash in the harbor back in 94. You could barely see the water. But the potential is there. I haven’t been there since the earthquakes, so I can only imagine that things have gotten worse. A total wasteland is what comes to mind when I think of Haiti.


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[Bigred]

Spent two months there moving people and supplies back and forth after the 2010 earthquake. It’s not a pretty place. Considering the massive amount of money and infrastructure support pumped into it after the earthquake, and it’s still not any better, I can’t imagine we’d make much difference now. 
 

 

[TreeA10]

Jared Diamond wrote the book Guns, Germs, and Steel covering how some societies evolved and became dominant while others did not. He also wrote Collapse about civilizations that were but are no more plus societies that are in the process of failing. Haiti made that list. He compared the Dominican Republic on the other half of the island with Haiti and how one is thriving and the other is a teetering on the edge basket case. 

Was a participant in the near invasion of Haiti back in the day.  We were only going to shoot target practice 30mm because the powers that be were worried we would set the slums on fire with no way to put the fires out.  Obviously, the situation hasn't improved. 

 

[FLEA]

While I don't generally support military adventurism I do generally accept that there is a stronger case to intervene in geographic neighbors than there is with people on the other hemisphere. Very Monroenian. 

[BFM this]

What Haiti really needs is a politically connected benevolent charitable foundation to step up and help out.

[Clark Griswold]

While I don't generally support military adventurism I do generally accept that there is a stronger case to intervene in geographic neighbors than there is with people on the other hemisphere. Very Monroenian. 

Same.
I don’t get the ambivalence towards fixing problems in our own house and neighborhood vs some sort of St George in retirement syndrome where we go looking for very difficult if not impossible missions 7,000 miles from home.
USA, Canada plus 2 regional neighbors with reasonable goals (secure major port, gov buildings in capital, distribute aid, etc…) should be feasible for phase 1.
Phase 2 long term development plan


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[Lord Ratner]

10 hours ago, FLEA said:

While I don't generally support military adventurism I do generally accept that there is a stronger case to intervene in geographic neighbors than there is with people on the other hemisphere. Very Monroenian. 

My concern is that we're going to do it anyways, and the price will not scale linearly with time.

 

I'd love to see us move the massive manufacturing we put in Asia over the past 30 years into South and Central America. How on earth we thought it was a better idea to enrich economies on the other side of the planet, instead of the people who surround us, is one of the many mysteries of Washington DC.

 

But we have to do it in a way that accepts they will eventually take over the manufacturing and associated businesses as their own, assuming we succeed in developing them. Countries can't progress as vassal states. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Lord Ratner

[kaputt]

2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

How on earth we thought it was a better idea to enrich economies on the other side of the planet, instead of the people who surround us, is one of the many mysteries of Washington DC.

Easy. 
 

If people had access to jobs like that in these countries, the mass of humanity that has flooded the southern border over the past decades would come to a halt, thus diminishing the ability of those in DC to play power politics with the demographics and voting trends of certain humans. 
 

Certainly can’t allow that to happen. 

[Lawman]

The DOD should be task-able as a logistical arm in humanitarian assistance, but this should be a State department and NGO fight. And even then on an available order of priority option. If available, sure but if tasked to the main DOD mission sorry go find another way.

That’s not to say I have a ton of faith in them, but our mandate is foreign policy effect through what is essentially violence. That does not rebuild or progress anybody economically or socially. That is why we should act as the heavy lifting of assets and a small immediate security footprint, but the wider mission should be run by somebody else.


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[ClearedHot]

Our attitude will change when the Chinese pull up with a big boat full of supplies, money and construction equipment.

[gearhog]

I don't want to comment as to what we should or shouldn't be doing.

If anyone is interested, this guy has brass balls. He made excellent series of videos depicting the absolute hellscape in Haiti. No agenda, just documenting the reality. I agree, it's difficult to believe this exists near to us. Worth the watch if you have time.

 

[Majestik Møøse]

1 hour ago, ClearedHot said:

Our attitude will change when the Chinese pull up with a big boat full of supplies, money and construction equipment.

Because they understand that military action and economic investment are tied together. I suppose it’s easier to arrange when the same guy is in charge of both.

For some reason America has tended to use economic power and military power as two separate forces ever since the 60s. The places where we have wielded both at once tend to get better. If we go in without security - or worse provide security with no reason - we leave it a boondoggle.

If we’re willing to set up factories and farms with wages that make the average Haitian dream of working there, then any military action to support that makes complete sense. Unfortunately that’s usually derided as “colonialism” because money is involved. So instead, we go in with only the military and some band-aid pallets of food in an attempt to convince the locals to believe in an idea, which will never work. 

[Lawman]

Our attitude will change when the Chinese pull up with a big boat full of supplies, money and construction equipment.

And as seen from Covid relief it largely doesn’t even need to be viable support to achieve the effect they want. That desire being wider societal influence and displacing our position as the sort of global center of gravity.


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[Clark Griswold]

Getting worse

https://www.yahoo.com/news/attacking-prisons-haiti-gangs-try-183704741.html