TIG change in NDAA23

[Chida]

I attached additional info from DFAS that I downloaded a while ago

 

DFAS_retirement_explanation.pdf

Edited February 12, 2023 by Chida
Added the wrong file initially

[Chida]

SocialD:

I ran a simulation using historical pay charts for 2 guys who make O-6 in the reserve. Assumptions to simplify: both entered service & commissioned 1 Jan 1985, birthday 1 Jan, age at commissioning 23, served continuously, did not have a RRPA so started drawing retired pay at age 60.

The first guy does his 3 yrs TIG as an O-6 and holds O-6 when he transfers to the Retired Reserve at age 46, Jan 2008, with 23 years of "active service". His high-36 is O-6 at >34 yrs for 2019, 2020, 2021: $11901, $12270, $12638=$12269.

The 2nd guy does not do 3 yrs TIG as an O-6, but does only 1 yr as an O-6, and transfers to the Retired Reserve as an O-5 at age 44, Jan 2006, with 21 years of "active service". That one year he did as an O-6 in 2005 was $7763. His high-36 is O-5 at >34 years for 2019, 2020, 2021: $9521, $9816, $10111= $9816.

As you can see, due to inflation of the pay charts, that one year he did as an O-6 way back in 2005 has no bearing on the high-36 calculation.

[chris99]

OK, I need some clarification from people in the know about Reserve retirement. 10 US Code 1370(b)(1) states: "(1)Service-in-grade requirement.—In order to be eligible for voluntary retirement under any provision of this title in a grade above the grade of captain in the Army, Air Force, or Marine Corps, lieutenant in the Navy, or the equivalent grade in the Space Force, a commissioned officer of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, or Space Force must have served on active duty in that grade for a period of not less than three years." AFI 36-3203, Para 8.2.5 states: “Three-Year TIG Requirement for Retirement Above the Grade of Major. To voluntarily retire in any grade higher than major, an officer must have satisfactorily served— as determined by the SecAF or designee—a minimum of three years TIG while on AD for AD retirements or during creditable service for AFR members retiring under 10 USC § 12731.” The regs seem to state that the 3-year TIG must be on Active Duty service. This seems like a lot to ask for a Reserve retirement--am I understanding it correctly?

[Chida]

The AFI you quoted is not up to speed with law yet, so it should say “grade higher than O-3.”

The key verbiage in the AFI is “or during creditable service for AFR members retiring under 10 USC § 12731.”

Creditable service as interpreted by ARPC: participating status and all good years for 3 yrs TIG or if over 20 good yrs and retiring on a partial year, a pro-rated good year. Main thing is 3 yrs TIG must be 3 whole years from effective date of rank that are good or pro-rated good AND in a participating status. 
 

The relevant law is 10 USC 1370A, not to be confused with 1370(a). 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Chida

[Chida]

Well I thought I had seen the TIG change for reserve majors in 10 USC 1370A, and now I can't find it. So it may be possible that Congress only changed the TIG requirement for Regular Majors. I'll consider this one to be undetermined unless someone can post up the law change specific to Reserve Majors for us.

[Chida]

The hits just keep on coming, though! I just found out that DFAS computes reserve retirement pay only on whole months, so unless you can increase your point total to the next 30 day increment, those 29 points are wasted effort!

From DOD FMR Vol 7B, Chapter 1 (they speak of points as days):

4.7 Age and Service Retirement – Non-Regular Total days of service, divided by 360 equals equivalent years and any fraction of a year of service.  Note:  Under 10 U.S.C. § 1401,  before applying percentage factor, each full month of service that is in addition to the number of full years of service is creditable as one-twelfth of a year.  The remaining fractional parts of a month are disregarded.

Example: I'm projected to have 5141 points or 14.28 years, but the fraction of a month is dropped, so rounding down to the whole month =14.25 yrs (14 yrs, 3 months)=5130 points.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Chida
add'l info

[chris99]

On 2/25/2023 at 10:46 AM, Chida said:

The AFI you quoted is not up to speed with law yet, so it should say “grade higher than O-3.”

The key verbiage in the AFI is “or during creditable service for AFR members retiring under 10 USC § 12731.”

Creditable service as interpreted by ARPC: participating status and all good years for 3 yrs TIG or if over 20 good yrs and retiring on a partial year, a pro-rated good year. Main thing is 3 yrs TIG must be 3 whole years from effective date of rank that are good or pro-rated good AND in a participating status. 
 

The relevant law is 10 USC 1370A, not to be confused with 1370(a). 

So you’re saying if I have three good years as a Reserve LTC then I can retire as an LTC? That “Active Duty” verbiage was throwing me off…

Edited February 27, 2023 by chris99

[FourFans]

On 2/27/2023 at 4:47 AM, chris99 said:

So you’re saying if I have three good years as a Reserve LTC then I can retire as an LTC? That “Active Duty” verbiage was throwing me off…

Yes.

[Guardian]

If you are getting a reserve retirement. If you finish up your 20 and only have 1 year of full time LTC and 3 years of DSG LTC then no. Hoping that’s not your situation.

[chris99]

10 hours ago, Guardian said:

If you are getting a reserve retirement. If you finish up your 20 and only have 1 year of full time LTC and 3 years of DSG LTC then no. Hoping that’s not your situation.

What is “DSG?” I got promoted in October 2019. I’m an IMA that has done 2.25 years of MPA since my promotion and I have been actively participating when I haven’t been on AD orders. I’m wondering if I need to do MPA for the remaining .75 year in order to hold LTC in retirement. 

[SurelySerious]

What is “DSG?” I got promoted in October 2019. I’m an IMA that has done 2.25 years of MPA since my promotion and I have been actively participating when I haven’t been on AD orders. I’m wondering if I need to do MPA for the remaining .75 year in order to hold LTC in retirement. 

You probably do need the last year of full time.

DSG= drill status guardsman. It’s ANG for part-time.

[hindsight2020]

That doesn't seem right. Being on MPA shouldn't matter. Once he pinned on in 2019 that's valid TIG, regardless of status. He's got more than 3 years. 

[SurelySerious]

That doesn't seem right. Being on MPA shouldn't matter. Once he pinned on in 2019 that's valid TIG, regardless of status. He's got more than 3 years. 

Fair enough.

[Guardian]

If his retirement is a 20 year active duty retirement you have to do the time in your final grade on active orders. If all you want is the part time IMA rank at 60 or whenever you get a part timer retirement then have 3 good years at your rank or whatever time requirement there is but I’m not sure what the IMA rules are. Never met one.

[SurelySerious]

I was thinking the active retirement part, but rereading the question think it relates to the IMA part and my answer was erroneous.

[hindsight2020]

3 hours ago, Guardian said:

If his retirement is a 20 year active duty retirement you have to do the time in your final grade on active orders.

I think we're conflating things. For the vanity shadow box yes. For the jelly of the month club? That is not how retired pay is calculated under the High-36 Plan for an active retirement. According to the DoD retirement page:  Defined Benefit that equals 2.5% times the number of years of service times the average of the member’s highest 36 months of basic pay. 

It makes no such stipulation that the member's qualifying "months of basic pay" occurred in active status. It's just that regAF folks consider that a given. But that isn't a given for Reservists who do attain Active Retirements.

To get the the piece of paper saying you're active retired in the grade of O-5, yes you'd have to get 3 years of AD as an O-5, otherwise the paper says O-4.

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by hindsight2020

[chris99]

I'm not looking to get an Active Duty retirement, only a Reserve retirement. I just want the higher "jelly of the month club" multiplier that retiring as an LTC gives you because I think it's approximately $800/month more as an LTC in my situation. With my RRPA, I'll start collecting when I'm 55. I just want it to be the higher monthly amount that comes with the LTC multiplier.

[hindsight2020]

Again, if you pinned on in 2019 you already have TIG for O-5 for grey zone accrual considerations. active duty service in that grade is not required.

[FourFans]

7 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

Again, if you pinned on in 2019 you already have TIG for O-5 for grey zone accrual considerations. active duty service in that grade is not required.

So long as there's no break in service between AD and IMA/AFRC status.

[chris99]

Thanks fellas!

[chris99]

5 hours ago, FourFans130 said:

So long as there's no break in service between AD and IMA/AFRC status.

You mean since I’ve pinned on?

[MT near]

So let's say I hit 20 years as a LtCol. This is my 20 years for an active retirement. I then become a DSG and promote to an O6. I get 3 Years TIG and then retire. 

 

What is my retirement based on? O5 or O6? 

[Chida]

18 hours ago, MT near said:

So let's say I hit 20 years as a LtCol. This is my 20 years for an active retirement. I then become a DSG and promote to an O6. I get 3 Years TIG and then retire. 

What is my retirement based on? O5 or O6? 

In this case you will receive a regular retirement as an O-5 (plus the points you received as a DSG when you re-retire from the guard). At age 60 (or RRPA) you may apply for a reserve retirement as an O-6.

https://www.jbsa.mil/News/News/Article/2223797/converting-active-duty-retirement-to-afr-ang-retirement/

Edited March 3, 2023 by Chida

[hindsight2020]

10 hours ago, Chida said:

In this case you will receive a regular retirement as an O-5 (plus the 1405 points you received as a DSG when you re-retire from the guard). At age 60 (or RRPA) you may apply for a reserve retirement as an O-6.

https://www.jbsa.mil/News/News/Article/2223797/converting-active-duty-retirement-to-afr-ang-retirement/

He's not asking about retirement orders, he's asking about what pay tables are used to calculate his high-36 for the active retirement. It's stipulated his active retirement order will say O-5, but that doesn't answer what the high-36 months for the active retirement are. 

To wit, I know plenty of O-5 bums/troughers who sloooowly piecemealed their way into 7305 AD points, separating out of Active duty many years before as O-4s. By your logic, their active retirements in AFRC would be calculated using 36 months of O-4 tables because that's the grade their active retirement order will have published. That is not correct.

ETA: #oof. I stand corrected. According to section 1407, the provisions of retired pay high 36 month calculations of a Regular retirement and a non-Regular retirement are different. 10USC1407(c) and (d) respectively. You can count months in active duty status towards a non-regular retire high 36 calc, but you can't count months in non-active duty status for the regular retire high 36 calc. 

Looks like it doesn't really pay to stay past 20 active in the ARC as a TR just to seek a higher grade month, if all it gets me is 500 bucks more....at age 60. womp womp. Learned something new today!

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by hindsight2020
I'm no lawyer, but I did google it.

[chris99]

On 3/2/2023 at 3:50 AM, FourFans130 said:

So long as there's no break in service between AD and IMA/AFRC status.

I had a break in service, but I’ve been participating in the Reserve for 13 years since that break in service ended.