Non-flying civilian job + Reserves?? Is it realistic?

[Yeti_72]

I will be joining a heavy squadron where nearly everyone is an airline pilot. I don't really want to be away from home constantly, so i am weighing pursing a work from home job in the corporate world. Does anyone have experience on how you are able to make this work? I know USERRA protects you in most cases but potentially being gone on longer trips frequently could make it difficult for everyone involved, especially because most civilians don't understand how the guard/reserves work. 

Another challenge is that I am separating from AD and going reserves, should i wait to find a job until after I get back from UPT? I cant imagine any employer will entertain the idea of a brand new hire being gone for 2 years right after they were hired. Again, i know technically i would be protected but if i tell them that's my plan in the interview, id assume they would find a reason not to hire me. Should I get hired and then tell them?

Edited April 21, 2023 by Yeti_72

[hindsight2020]

My experience with USERRA on a non-GS/fed, non-airline basis, wasn't particularly positive. Basically, on the ARC pilot side of things the job was built for airlines. Sure, people make other professions work, but I found it the exception rather than the rule.

The reason is that even though you'll never be able to prove it in a court of law, if you're a single point of failure in a private employer office and you incur the above average amount of absence from work required to remain qualified as a military pilot, your promotions and outright employability will suffer compared to peers. The smaller the employment circle, the worse the dynamic gets. 

In my case, I attempted to pursue a college professorship route, as a non-airline-minded AFRC pilot. The demands of the employer were not compatible with the level of participation required to remain CMR and remain halfway decent at my pilot job. So I had come to a fork on the road, did the math and realized that the college job paid/benefits effing peanuts compares to diving full time into the trougher/de-facto full timer thing. So I decided to dispense with the whole trying to fit the square peg through the round hole and turned down the job offer. 

In that unit however, we had plenty of non-airline types (mostly the navs). Doctors (one no shit went through med school while a TR, big personal favor on the part of the unit of course, but hey we don't talk about fight club), Lockmart desk engineers (commuter to the unit), even a pastor ffs. And of course, the statistical majority were airline pilots for the obvious reasons.

GS folks share similar flex as airline guys, at least as far as the lack of pushback, relative to non-airline private jobs, not saying they don't experience some.

Work from home brings a different calculus, but doesn't fundamentally change the allowances of USERRA. Not sure how promotability would be affected vis a vis a traditional job where your physical absence would be noticed.

Remember that the traditional TR gig for non-pilots was based on the old "one weekend a month, 2 weeks a year". That's the extent most employers understand the commitment of a Reservist to mean. Pilots are not in that category, so it quickly becomes intractable for small non-redundant-workforce employers, like said college job offer was for me.

Personally, I would not get hired prior to UPT. That's gonna sour things from the jump, even if it's legal. I always told myself, would I want to work for someone I have to sue in order to work for them in the first place? To each their own and all that jazz, the juice wasn't worth the squeeze for me when I was faced with the question 14 years ago.

Good luck.

 

[kona4breakfast]

Get a job with the feds then go to UPT. Max perform for 5 years of USERRA knowing you've got a job in your back pocket. You want to trough it to upgrade and get good at it, no matter what. Then go get a line number at your local domicile then max perform for another 5 years so you've got enough seniority to bid what you want. Maybe even rinse and repeat.

[Yeti_72]

21 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

My experience with USERRA on a non-GS/fed, non-airline basis, wasn't particularly positive. Basically, on the ARC pilot side of things the job was built for airlines. Sure, people make other professions work, but I found it the exception rather than the rule.

The reason is that even though you'll never be able to prove it in a court of law, if you're a single point of failure in a private employer office and you incur the above average amount of absence from work required to remain qualified as a military pilot, your promotions and outright employability will suffer compared to peers. The smaller the employment circle, the worse the dynamic gets. 

In my case, I attempted to pursue a college professorship route, as a non-airline-minded AFRC pilot. The demands of the employer were not compatible with the level of participation required to remain CMR and remain halfway decent at my pilot job. So I had come to a fork on the road, did the math and realized that the college job paid/benefits effing peanuts compares to diving full time into the trougher/de-facto full timer thing. So I decided to dispense with the whole trying to fit the square peg through the round hole and turned down the job offer. 

In that unit however, we had plenty of non-airline types (mostly the navs). Doctors (one no shit went through med school while a TR, big personal favor on the part of the unit of course, but hey we don't talk about fight club), Lockmart desk engineers (commuter to the unit), even a pastor ffs. And of course, the statistical majority were airline pilots for the obvious reasons.

GS folks share similar flex as airline guys, at least as far as the lack of pushback, relative to non-airline private jobs, not saying they don't experience some.

Work from home brings a different calculus, but doesn't fundamentally change the allowances of USERRA. Not sure how promotability would be affected vis a vis a traditional job where your physical absence would be noticed.

Remember that the traditional TR gig for non-pilots was based on the old "one weekend a month, 2 weeks a year". That's the extent most employers understand the commitment of a Reservist to mean. Pilots are not in that category, so it quickly becomes intractable for small non-redundant-workforce employers, like said college job offer was for me.

Personally, I would not get hired prior to UPT. That's gonna sour things from the jump, even if it's legal. I always told myself, would I want to work for someone I have to sue in order to work for them in the first place? To each their own and all that jazz, the juice wasn't worth the squeeze for me when I was faced with the question 14 years ago.

Good luck.

 

Dude thanks so much for this. I'm coming to the realization that it's probably going to be the airlines for me. Thats in no way a bad thing and I would be extremely grateful for that opportunity, but I spent the last 2 years working towards my MBA and using up my GI Bill so its a hard pill to swallow letting that go to waste. I guess its always go to have in my back pocket if all else goes to shit, med DQ, layoffs, etc...

[Yeti_72]

20 hours ago, kona4breakfast said:

Get a job with the feds then go to UPT. Max perform for 5 years of USERRA knowing you've got a job in your back pocket. You want to trough it to upgrade and get good at it, no matter what. Then go get a line number at your local domicile then max perform for another 5 years so you've got enough seniority to bid what you want. Maybe even rinse and repeat.

Now thats what I'm talkin about lmao nice..

[hindsight2020]

3 hours ago, Yeti_72 said:

Dude thanks so much for this. I'm coming to the realization that it's probably going to be the airlines for me. Thats in no way a bad thing and I would be extremely grateful for that opportunity, but I spent the last 2 years working towards my MBA and using up my GI Bill so its a hard pill to swallow letting that go to waste. I guess its always go to have in my back pocket if all else goes to shit, med DQ, layoffs, etc...

No need to lament it, the airlines are purpose-built for TR participation, compared to most jobs.

I'm not an airline guy (don't want to be, I may try it one day, but not today, lord knows I've stopped making long term plans in this life) for reasons that pertain to me and mine and no one else. But education as some sort of sunk cost golden handcuffs, is just not one of them.

For disclosure, the time I spent pursuing my multiple engineering degrees were an objective waste to me (in hindsight, <-which is also 1/3 of my username's origin story btw; I've been in BODN a while now lol). I also erroneously thought I needed to pursue them in order to get where I wanted to. I didn't, and I didn't get to where I was trying to go either;  womp womp for me. *despondently flicks cigarette* 😄 

But my point to you being, there's plenty of people doing the airline thing as second careers, retirees, 1st career changers, et al, who have tons of unrelated education. It's not something to lament in the least. It's rather commonplace. If anything, it's rational to have a different educational background when the airlines don't love you back, again. I do question/reject the value of an unused decade-old degree with no direct work experience history, but that's neither here nor there.

You'll be fine. Focus on solid UPT and FTU performance, and figure out the rest when you have more close-in visibility to the next rock.  Cheers.

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by hindsight2020

[FDNYOldGuy]

+1 what most of the other folks already said. Adding to it, it greatly depends on the type of non-flying civilian employment you want. In my case, the FDNY (City of New York actually runs the Mil rules, so other agencies get the same) is absolutely stellar for being a part-time Mil meatbag and continuing my career there while being a gameful participant at the squadron.

Sure, there are lots of pieces of the USERRA law/applications through the FD that aren’t necessarily geared to us non “one weekend a month/two weeks a year” type part-timers, but I haven’t hit any serious speed bumps. Because there are 10k+ firefighters, I’m not even the only Mil pilot/firefighter out there (a small handful, but still). 

So, as stated, it will vary greatly what type of job you are talking about, the hit to you not being there while you’re playing pew pew man (an org as big as the FD it’s a blip; some it could be devastating), how your unit/airframe operates (do you deploy for months and have long stretches home/lower duty reqs or very rarely deploy for months but take intermittent trips of days/weeks monthly/quarterly on the reg), and what your participation rate is (usually higher when younger/newer/upgrading and less as you become more experienced or busy on the outside).

Last clarification on USERRA and the 5 year limit: a good portion of your SCHOOL orders (OTS-UPT-FTU-Seasoning pipeline/future upgrades/etc.) DO NOT count toward your 5 year USERRA limit. Some of my orders from these timelines have a line stating they are exempt from the 5 year USERRA limit per U.S.C. 4312 (C)(3). I’ve never actually read that code, but the orders say you’re solid. So, theoretically, you would have longer than 5 years of total protection with a single employer you work for before you started. They don’t all say that and not sure whether they should and that line wasn’t added or just certain school orders are exempt, but it probably specifies in the code listed above. All that said, see above paragraphs/posts whether it actually would play out like that, but the law provides for longer when training is involved. 

TL;DR: Non-airline life can be just fine, with the right employer. It’ll depend on a lot of factors, though. Seems like you’ve come around to airline life, which is probably the best move. It’s not for everyone, for sure, and your family/living situation may change/dictate another path, but it’s an absolutely amazing job opportunity presented down the line. It also won’t help having your squadron mates drizzling that cash money/chill life airline honey in your ears all the time. Haha.

Good luck, whatever you choose! The adventure is fun regardless!

[Padres02]

Does anyone have a remote civilian job that they are able to blend seamlessly with their reserve/Guard obligations? Or close to it at least? The field I am studying fortunately offers lots of options for remote work, so Im curious how others have blended the two. 

[Lockjaw]

Yup. I (since March 2020) work nearly all remote. Granted, my former in-person location is only about 30 mins from where i live, but my Guard gig is around 2.5 hrs.

I did have a lot of in-person interaction with my supervision before we ended up going remote, so YMMV, but so far it's been pretty painless. I do miss some aspects of in-person work - the socialization primarily, as well as the ability of being able to track someone down and talk face to face if they aren't answering calls/e-mails - but I don't miss the commute time and it is helpful with two little ones to be able to knock out some household stuff when time allows during the day.

[brabus]

@Padres02 That’s probably the best setup you could possibly have. Even if you had a tight schedule one day, you could square the corner by finishing a flight and powering up the civ job laptop for a teams meeting at the squadron if you didn’t have time to run home in between. Keep your civ job calendar accurate (e..g not avail 0700-1200 X date) and your civ counterparts won’t care (or shouldn’t at least). That hypothetical is just a minor example, you’ll have no legal issues taking multiple days/years off for training, deployments, etc (at least USERRA-wise). 

Edited April 29, 2023 by brabus

[Lockjaw]

12 hours ago, brabus said:

Even if you had a tight schedule one day, you could square the corner by finishing a flight and powering up the civ job laptop for a teams meeting at the squadron if you didn’t have time to run home in between. Keep your civ job calendar accurate (e..g not avail 0700-1200 X date) and your civ counterparts won’t care (or shouldn’t at least). 

This has been my experience several times...either before or after a flight (or at the hotel - I'm a commuter).

As mentioned, pros and cons but it does work quite well for DSG/TR life.