investing in a jet sim

[wikz]

Good morning aviators. I had an idea that crossed my mind about investing in a flight sim. Items including stick, throttle, and rudder pedals (https://shop.thrustmaster.com/en_gb/t-16000m-fcs-flight-pack.html),  and some kind of good reviewed/ not too expensive pc and monitor to play Microsoft Flight Simulator, and DCS.

I have the money to pay for something like this, so I am not too worried about the damage, but I was looking for some input. Do you think buying, and playing a sim is worth it? ex. improving pilot skills; getting familiarity with jets that could possibly help in phase 2 & 3 of UPT (possibly practicing t-6 and t-38 maneuvers, for example formation flying, split S etc. I am gonna look more into what type of flying they do);  and keeping piloting skills fresh. I think it would also be a sweet gig for someone that's interested in aviation. 

Ive seen a UPT stud with a cheap sim setup that he used to practice at the end of the day, and he ended up getting top of his class selecting tailhook.

I understand that anything I practice is nothing compared to the real training, just wanted to get an idea. Is there any pilots out there that have purchased something like this?

 

[Stoker]

I don't know how it goes in T-38s, but sometime in the early academic phases of T-6s you get access to full cockpit simulators with screens. Just go practice there with a couple friends. It's basically unlimited, provided you show up early enough to beat everyone else on the sign-in sheet.

[Biff_T]

2 hours ago, Stoker said:

I don't know how it goes in T-38s, but sometime in the early academic phases of T-6s you get access to full cockpit simulators with screens. Just go practice there with a couple friends. It's basically unlimited, provided you show up early enough to beat everyone else on the sign-in sheet.

A few of the dudes and myself took advantage of this, especially during instruments. If I had time, I  would fly my entire instrument profile prior to my flight.   Even my checkride.  We flew our potential checkride profiles and that definitely helped.  

Edited April 26, 2023 by Biff_T
Spelling bee failure

[BashiChuni]

no. do what stoker said. plenty of time to use UPT sims

[FLEA]

Interesting. When I went through UPT sim usage outside a syllabus event was considered a deviation. Glad someone got over that horse shit. 

[BashiChuni]

9 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Interesting. When I went through UPT sim usage outside a syllabus event was considered a deviation. Glad someone got over that horse shit. 

it hasn't been that way for at least 15 years

[FLEA]

20 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

it hasn't been that way for at least 15 years

I graduated in 2011 and when I went through you could only use the cockpit mockup pre final contact phase without a flight commander signature. After your mid phase a flight commander has to sign off on it which was shitty because it was actually a great instrument trainer. They weren't inclined to sign off unless you were really struggling. Screened displays were definitely a no no at any point outside a syllabus event. The conversation was basically about equity because not all students had equal access to the sims. Was totally stupid. 

Edited April 27, 2023 by FLEA

[Biff_T]

I went a few years prior to Flea.  My flight CC didn't have a problem with it so we practiced arcing, fix to fixes and and whatever other things that were beneficial in a full cockpit mockup.  This wasnt in the Sim.  Just the CPTs that were capable of full instrument profiles.   I also learned how to give shitty vectors to my buds lol.  If I remember correctly, you could fly instrument departures.   

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

I graduated in 2011 and when I went through you could only use the cockpit mockup pre final contact phase without a flight commander signature. After your mid phase a flight commander has to sign off on it which was shitty because it was actually a great instrument trainer. They weren't inclined to sign off unless you were really struggling. Screened displays were definitely a no no at any point outside a syllabus event. The conversation was basically about equity because not all students had equal access to the sims. Was totally stupid. 

DIVERSITY EQUITY INCLUSION

CHANT IT WITH ME

[yzl337]

Generally, a waste of money from a training standpoint. Prior to UPT it would have limited value. You may be able to practice maneuvers, but without knowledge of standards and techniques you'll be expected to perform under during UPT, the training is negligible at best, negative at worst. Once you begin UPT you will have nearly unlimited access to exactly this type of set up. At Vance there is a lab in each squadron with multiple VR simulators and each flight room has one of their own. You will be encouraged to use it as much a possible. As far as having one a home, you will be better off just reading the pubs, working out, and getting a good nights sleep. 

 

[wikz]

30 minutes ago, yzl337 said:

Generally, a waste of money from a training standpoint. Prior to UPT it would have limited value. You may be able to practice maneuvers, but without knowledge of standards and techniques you'll be expected to perform under during UPT, the training is negligible at best, negative at worst. Once you begin UPT you will have nearly unlimited access to exactly this type of set up. At Vance there is a lab in each squadron with multiple VR simulators and each flight room has one of their own. You will be encouraged to use it as much a possible. As far as having one a home, you will be better off just reading the pubs, working out, and getting a good nights sleep. 

 

exactly what I was looking for, totally agree. but who knows, maybe ill make a bad decision, and still buy it just for the fun of it.. 

appreciate the opinions.

[BashiChuni]

11 hours ago, wikz said:

but who knows, maybe ill make a bad decision, and still buy it just for the fun of it.. 

 

this has GOT to be my wife trolling on baseops...

[skibum]

19 hours ago, yzl337 said:

Generally, a waste of money from a training standpoint. Prior to UPT it would have limited value. You may be able to practice maneuvers, but without knowledge of standards and techniques you'll be expected to perform under during UPT, the training is negligible at best, negative at worst. Once you begin UPT you will have nearly unlimited access to exactly this type of set up. At Vance there is a lab in each squadron with multiple VR simulators and each flight room has one of their own. You will be encouraged to use it as much a possible. As far as having one a home, you will be better off just reading the pubs, working out, and getting a good nights sleep. 

 

Not sure I fully agree based on research. Got my PhD with a dissertation in predicting pilot training performance. Lot's of research, including my own findings, revealed use of computer-based simulation had a correlation with improved UPT performance. It's a similar correlation (although not as strong) as overall flight hours entering UPT. Can there be negative transfer? Sure, but generally it was beneficial. If you want to turn over every rock to make your dream come true, it is likely to help. Personally, I'd spend the cash on strippers and whiskey but that's just how I roll...

[Clark Griswold]

Looking back I think renting an aircraft and flying in the local area on the weekends during academics is what I think would have been helpful

Just to see the visual refs and in general the local area / nearby aux fields is what I wish I would have done

Not related to the OP’s question but added FWIW


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[BFM this]

On 4/27/2023 at 8:49 PM, Clark Griswold said:

Looking back I think renting an aircraft and flying in the local area on the weekends during academics is what I think would have been helpful

Just to see the visual refs and in general the local area / nearby aux fields is what I wish I would have done

Not related to the OP’s question but added FWIW


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

lol, I flight planned this out before starting phase 2.

My planning showed me how many HOURS it was gonna take to cover half of northern MS trying to vis recce the pattern, MOAs, LL routes, etc.  100kts vs 250kts/350kts (tweet, talon).  We're talking gas stops, over multiple days of flying.

...it was an idea quickly dismissed.  OP's idea would cost a small fraction, and with google earth embedded in the most recent sims, not a bad idea.

Best bet is if UPT now allows open sims--->>>do that!  In 2004 this was considered a SylDev, but my FC did sign off a few sessions so I could go over with classmates who were struggling.

[Biff_T]

I faintly remember not being able to fly civilian once upt started (Vance).  That being said, my first week at Rucker one of my classmates asked to fill out a hazardous activity form to fly aerobatics.  We were at Rucker to learn helicopters.   Good dude, we were all a little curious why he still wanted to fly upside down after going to the darkside of wingless noise makers.  He just really liked flying. 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Biff_T
I proofread after I post

[Clark Griswold]

lol, I flight planned this out before starting phase 2.
My planning showed me how many HOURS it was gonna take to cover half of northern MS trying to vis recce the pattern, MOAs, LL routes, etc.  100kts vs 250kts/350kts (tweet, talon).  We're talking gas stops, over multiple days of flying.
...it was an idea quickly dismissed.  OP's idea would cost a small fraction, and with google earth embedded in the most recent sims, not a bad idea.
Best bet is if UPT now allows open sims--->>>do that!  In 2004 this was considered a SylDev, but my FC did sign off a few sessions so I could go over with classmates who were struggling.

Great minds…

I thought of this after finishing phase 2 and hated looking for the pink house at CBM and Texas shaped field at Gunshy


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[FLEA]

14 minutes ago, Biff_T said:

I faintly remember not being able to fly civilian once upt started (Vance).  That being said, my first week at Rucker one of my classmates asked to fill out a hazardous activity form to fly aerobatics.  We were at Rucker to learn helicopters.   Good dude, we were all a little curious why he still wanted to fly upside down after going to the darkside of wingless noise makers.  He just really liked flying. 

I remember this too but being older and wiser now I'm wondering how enforceable that really is. In other capacities of service you can't actually tell a service member what they can and can't do during personal liberty so long as its lawful. Not saying its not true but part of me does wonder if it was just smoke.

[BFM this]

19 minutes ago, FLEA said:

I remember this too but being older and wiser now I'm wondering how enforceable that really is. In other capacities of service you can't actually tell a service member what they can and can't do during personal liberty so long as its lawful. Not saying its not true but part of me does wonder if it was just smoke.

Scuttlebut was that it could be used in a Line of Duty determination for SGLI, so all played along.

That said, I had a Hazardous Activities worksheet that included gliders, light GA, motorcycle, boating, and shooting, so it wasn't as though they were being pricks about it.

[uhhello]

SGLI pays out regardless in ALL instances except:

The coverage provided by the SGLI program will be forfeited only when an insured member is found guilty of mutiny, treason, spying, or desertion, or refuses, because of conscientious objections, to perform service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or refuses to wear the uniform of such force.

No insurance shall be payable for death inflicted as a lawful punishment for crime or for military or naval offense except when inflicted by an enemy of the United States.

[Swizzle]

3 hours ago, BFM this said:

Scuttlebut was that it could be used in a Line of Duty determination for SGLI, so all played along.

That said, I had a Hazardous Activities worksheet that included gliders, light GA, motorcycle, boating, and shooting, so it wasn't as though they were being pricks about it.

LoD for medical bills I thought...not SGLI.

 

Definition: An inquiry used to determine whether a service member incurred an injury or disease while in a duty status; whether it was aggravated by military duty; and whether incurrence or aggravation was due to the service member’s intentional misconduct or willful negligence.

[Pooter]

On 4/26/2023 at 8:15 PM, wikz said:

exactly what I was looking for, totally agree. but who knows, maybe ill make a bad decision, and still buy it just for the fun of it.. 

appreciate the opinions.

Having taught pilot training, and taught specifically in VR/computer sims with exactly the equipment you listed, I can tell you with 100% certainty you can get training value out of it.. but only if you approach it seriously and methodically. 
 

If you play fuck fuck games and yank and bank through downtown Dallas or the Grand Canyon it will give you zero training value. But if you get your hands on a UPT base inflight guide, a t-6 or t-38 sim model and start trying to actually fly military style overhead patterns you will get something out of it. Both from a pacing and cross check perspective. 
 

Don't try to practice aerobatics, it's garbage and negative training. Look up what a vertical S maneuver is and try to do that. Also try turns at different bank angles 30, 45, and 60 while trying maintaining your altitude +/-150 feet. 

[yzl337]

On 4/27/2023 at 3:51 PM, skibum said:

Not sure I fully agree based on research. Got my PhD with a dissertation in predicting pilot training performance. Lot's of research, including my own findings, revealed use of computer-based simulation had a correlation with improved UPT performance. It's a similar correlation (although not as strong) as overall flight hours entering UPT. Can there be negative transfer? Sure, but generally it was beneficial. If you want to turn over every rock to make your dream come true, it is likely to help. Personally, I'd spend the cash on strippers and whiskey but that's just how I roll...

Perhaps I should have further elaborated. There is absolutely value in training via a simulator, and it *could* aid in significant performance improvement in UPT. The caveat is exactly what Pooter is discussing above, it must be used in a focused, methodical manner involving some sort of curriculum. Simply playing around and doing barrel rolls and loops in a VR sim is useless, I watch students do it constantly each day in the squadron. I see students screw around for an hour in the VR sims supposedly rehearing a formation sortie only to royally bomb the sortie the next morning. However when another IP or I sits next to them and talks them through training goals, forces them to set up properly and rehearse, and hold them to performance goals, there is noticed improvement in their performance in the aircraft. 

 

[wikz]

10 hours ago, Pooter said:

Having taught pilot training, and taught specifically in VR/computer sims with exactly the equipment you listed, I can tell you with 100% certainty you can get training value out of it.. but only if you approach it seriously and methodically. 
 

If you play games and yank and bank through downtown Dallas or the Grand Canyon it will give you zero training value. But if you get your hands on a UPT base inflight guide, a t-6 or t-38 sim model and start trying to actually fly military style overhead patterns you will get something out of it. Both from a pacing and cross check perspective. 
 

Don't try to practice aerobatics, it's garbage and negative training. Look up what a vertical S maneuver is and try to do that. Also try turns at different bank angles 30, 45, and 60 while trying maintaining your altitude +/-150 feet. 

Ive seen a few YouTube videos on t-38 check rides, and the requirements needed to perform maneuvers. Videos and info like you suggested would be exactly what I would like to practice on, but who would I be to not dick around and fly 600 knots around the map. appreciate the advice!

[wikz]

On 4/27/2023 at 10:51 AM, skibum said:

Not sure I fully agree based on research. Got my PhD with a dissertation in predicting pilot training performance. Lot's of research, including my own findings, revealed use of computer-based simulation had a correlation with improved UPT performance. It's a similar correlation (although not as strong) as overall flight hours entering UPT. Can there be negative transfer? Sure, but generally it was beneficial. If you want to turn over every rock to make your dream come true, it is likely to help. Personally, I'd spend the cash on strippers and whiskey but that's just how I roll...

I may sound like every kid on baseops, but flying jets for the military has always been the ultimate goal for me. I research a lot about UPT, and sometimes the idea of how much they train frightens me because I worry if I can keep up enough to graduate and complete my dream. Just trying to look for anyway to better my chances and do the best I can.