Fix-to-fix video

[stract]

Anyone have a good copy of the subtitled Downfall video about AETC students and fix-to-fixes?  My google-foo is failing me.

[Herkdrvr]

Here ya go.

 

[Pooter]

😂😂😂 such a good edit

but actually.. fix to fixes, while completely outdated and illegal, are a pretty good litmus test for whether you have the aptitude to learn basic instrument flying concepts. If you can't get reasonably close on a F2F, you probably don't have a good grasp of where you are in time and space, or what the course and bearing needles are trying to tell you. 
 

We're quick to throw basics away these days because they don't directly translate to the ops world anymore, but we do new student pilots a disservice depriving them of basic aviation building blocks. The same idea as why you teach kids arithmetic by hand before using calculators.

[Vito]

 I graduated UPT in 1987. I can tell you the F2F was the cause of a large percentage of checkride busts. Take a look at the Tweet cockpit and try to do a F2F using the RMI only. Doing them in T-38’s was so much easier with a proper HSI.

[Standby]

58 minutes ago, Vito said:

 I graduated UPT in 1987. I can tell you the F2F was the cause of a large percentage of checkride busts. Take a look at the Tweet cockpit and try to do a F2F using the RMI only. Doing them in T-38’s was so much easier with a proper HSI.

Asking for a friend…what’s an RMI? I’ve also heard that people used to fly things called NDB approaches but I can’t find anything in my 787 company manual. 

 /s

Edited May 25, 2023 by Standby

[Biff_T]

55 minutes ago, Standby said:

Asking for a friend…what’s an RMI? I’ve also heard that people used to fly things called NDB approaches but I can’t find anything in my 787 company manual. 

 /s

The NDB is the best instrument approach around lol, I bet the Army still has a few lol.  
 

9 hours ago, Pooter said:

but actually.. fix to fixes, while completely outdated and illegal, are a pretty good litmus test for whether you have the aptitude to learn basic instrument flying concepts. If

Yeap, you should always know basic instrument techniques.  As much as I hated doing a F2F, I always gave one on check rides (before it was removed from the 11mDS vol 2 ).  One day (crazy world war or alien invasion), those moving maps and GPS waypoints may not be there or be that accurate.  That trusty TACAN will always be there.   Lol

Edited May 25, 2023 by Biff_T

[Pooter]

19 minutes ago, Biff_T said:

Yeap, you should always know basic instrument techniques.  As much as I hated doing a F2F, I always gave one on check rides (before it was removed from the 11mDS ).  One day (crazy world war or alien invasion), those moving maps and GPS waypoints may not be there or be that accurate.  That trusty TACAN will always be there.   Lol

Facts. Even more than the applicability to gps/alien doomsday scenarios, solar storms, raim issues and internal electrical malfunctions can totally hose GPS and moving maps.. I've seen the little airplane icon on the moving map glitch around or move backwards more than a few times. In those instances, control and performance instruments + a legacy navaid are basically all you've got.
 

But even more than that I just believe if you can't figure out how an HSI works you have no business operating an aircraft. It's like learning to make your bed in boot camp. Shows you have the wherewithal and aptitude to master basic tasks before you get bigger more relevant tasks. Why should I trust you to manage an autopilot coupled  approach to mins in a state of the art aircraft if you can't figure out two needles and a DME readout. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Pooter

[Herkdrvr]

Gotta love the 4-ship NDB procedure turn off a shitty SKE scope in the wx.  

[SocialD]

2 hours ago, Vito said:

 I graduated UPT in 1987. I can tell you the F2F was the cause of a large percentage of checkride busts. Take a look at the Tweet cockpit and try to do a F2F using the RMI only. Doing them in T-38’s was so much easier with a proper HSI.

 

 

I didn't think the F2F was all that crazy in the Tweet, and found the RMI to be helpful in visualizing the whole thing.  Now that J2 on the bottom right...WTF was that instrument actually for?  I don't think I found it useful for anything.  

[herkbum]

Gotta love the 4-ship NDB procedure turn off a shitty SKE scope in the wx.  

We did them every Tuesday and Wednesday at Ft Campbell, but usually a 2-ship. I miss the Herk.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

[Vito]

  As others have mentioned, the utility of a F2F in the real world is limited, however as a screening tool in UPT to see what studs could hand fly, calculate, and hit the intended fix within parameters was a discriminator. Half of the maneuvers we did at UPT were designed to separate the wheat from the chaff.

[HuggyU2]

33 minutes ago, Vito said:

  As others have mentioned, the utility of a F2F in the real world is limited...

The T-38A I fly still has 1 TACAN, 1 ILS, and that's it.  
 

Pencil-method, Rule of 5s... bring it on!!

Edited May 25, 2023 by HuggyU2

[Danger41]

Also, a radar intercept/Bullseye call is also a fix-to-fix basically. Which is why I felt like a dummy when showed how to use the ack symbols on a B scope to shack fix to fixes instead of pencil method.  

[HeloDude]

3 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

The T-38A I fly still has 1 TACAN, 1 ILS, and that's it.  
 

Pencil-method, Rule of 5s... bring it on!!

Yeah, but you have an iPad/FF…I’d trust that by itself in a pinch!

[Biff_T]

4 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Yeah, but you have an iPad/FF…I’d trust that by itself in a pinch!

"Speaking of pinch.  Do you mind if i use that method? It works for me"- MP. 

"You're not doing a F2F, you're fucking homing"-IP Biff.   Lol

If you're reading this, no harm bud... That was a good trip!!!  👍 

[Prozac]

19 hours ago, Pooter said:

😂😂😂 such a good edit

but actually.. fix to fixes, while completely outdated and illegal, are a pretty good litmus test for whether you have the aptitude to learn basic instrument flying concepts. If you can't get reasonably close on a F2F, you probably don't have a good grasp of where you are in time and space, or what the course and bearing needles are trying to tell you. 
 

We're quick to throw basics away these days because they don't directly translate to the ops world anymore, but we do new student pilots a disservice depriving them of basic aviation building blocks. The same idea as why you teach kids arithmetic by hand before using calculators.

Well, I think we found our fix to fix nazi.
 

That said, you ain’t shit unless you can shack a F2F directly into a holding pattern, correctly apply the Mercedes Benz method for holding entry, proficiency triple the drift on the outbound leg, call ready for the approach after the first turn, then precisely fly a DME arc, compute the proper lead radial, and roll out on the NDB final within a degree, maybe a degree and a half (I mean, the needle does waiver a bit so I’m willing to cut a little slack here), figure your descent rate, execute a complex missed with a non-standard climb, and F2F yourself right back to the IAF to do the VOR this time. No GPS. Under the hood. In the Tweet. 

[RASH]

Asking for a friend…what’s an RMI? I’ve also heard that people used to fly things called NDB approaches but I can’t find anything in my 787 company manual. 

 /s

Come fly Herks…


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[Standby]

20 hours ago, RASH said:

Come fly Herks…


Sent from my iPad using Baseops Network mobile app

No thanks, I have standards.

Really though…the 757 has an RMI and ADF pointer. CRT ADI, HSI, and engine stack. Otherwise analog everything else.  Unless it’s an H3, it’s at least 2 generations ahead. 

[Pooter]

On 5/25/2023 at 6:47 PM, Prozac said:

Well, I think we found our fix to fix nazi.
 

That said, you ain’t shit unless you can shack a F2F directly into a holding pattern, correctly apply the Mercedes Benz method for holding entry, proficiency triple the drift on the outbound leg, call ready for the approach after the first turn, then precisely fly a DME arc, compute the proper lead radial, and roll out on the NDB final within a degree, maybe a degree and a half (I mean, the needle does waiver a bit so I’m willing to cut a little slack here), figure your descent rate, execute a complex missed with a non-standard climb, and F2F yourself right back to the IAF to do the VOR this time. No GPS. Under the hood. In the Tweet. 

Lolol call me a F2F nazi all you want but I don't think figuring out a ratio between two numbers should be a task beyond our student pilots. 
 

 Its pretty telling that your paragraph comes off as an impossibly difficult joke now but you basically described a standard instrument check profile from 10-15 years ago

[HossHarris]

1 hour ago, Pooter said:

Lolol call me a F2F nazi all you want but I don't think figuring out a ratio between two numbers should be a task beyond our student pilots. 
 

 Its pretty telling that your paragraph comes off as an impossibly difficult joke now but you basically described a standard instrument check profile from 10-15 years ago

That was pretty much T-38A instrument check almost exactly … tacan rather than NDB … but potato potahto

[Prozac]

2 hours ago, Pooter said:

Lolol call me a F2F nazi all you want but I don't think figuring out a ratio between two numbers should be a task beyond our student pilots. 
 

 Its pretty telling that your paragraph comes off as an impossibly difficult joke now but you basically described a standard instrument check profile from 10-15 years ago

Yeah, the ironically funny part of my post was that I was agreeing with you and cranking your sentiments to 11.