Recruiting Crisis: 9% want to serve

[Danger41]

Yeah but if I’m hiring folks and a dude walks in wearing a Stetson, spurs, and this playing in the background, he’s getting hired.

 

[brabus]

And when there’s 2 of those guys, and one says, “well I also shot the shit out of things with an Abrahams and banged hot E-strange in the dorms nightly”…bam, you’ve got a decisive winner!

[uhhello]

3 hours ago, pawnman said:

They may not beat the GI Bill, but they beat tuition assistance. All three companies will pay 100% tuition to select schools with no annual cap. The military pays $4500 a year, in years where budget constraints don't turn it off early. 

And unless you're going straight degree mill that 4500 aint coming close to covering the tuition per credit hour. 

[Biff_T]

It’s all about that E-Strange!!!  Bonus points if he found some deployed.  

[Bigred]

1 hour ago, Biff_T said:

It’s all about that E-Strange!!!  Bonus points if he found some deployed.  

What happens on deployment stays in deployment 🤫

Edited July 12, 2023 by Bigred

[pawnman]

4 hours ago, brabus said:

@pawnman Ah. Well GI bill still wins by a long shot over straight TA, but the TA diff is certainly a valid point. 

Also, don’t be obtuse, you know I’m not insinuating the hypothetical dude is going to get a civ tank driving job. He’s going to have a resume with skill sets that far outpace the hammer swinger, all while likely making more money and having greater benefits. That’s the point. 

But will he actually? I would say he's starting 4 years behind the guy who got into an actual apprentice program in a trade. Tank driving guy may have some intangibles (self-discipline, ability to suck it up, respect for authority), but he has no actual transferable skills from that job. 

[brabus]

You’re wrong. You’d be amazed at how well mil people of all backgrounds can do in the civ world assuming they don’t shoot themselves in the foot with a deflated sense of value and skills. 

[Lord Ratner]

On 7/11/2023 at 5:13 PM, Standby said:

Recruiting is down? Astonishing given efforts like this:

 

This is a logical move though from the people who believe there are no differences in humans at all and as such you can just pick whatever identity group you want more representation from.

 

The idea that you're going to find a bunch of recruits from a political demographic that fundamentally believes that America is more accurately characterized by it's flaws rather than it's strengths is silly. 

 

They're called Social Justice Warriors because they already believe they are in a war. They don't need a real one to feel like they are doing something.

[Bigred]

13 hours ago, brabus said:

You’re wrong. You’d be amazed at how well mil people of all backgrounds can do in the civ world assuming they don’t shoot themselves in the foot with a deflated sense of value and skills. 

He’s not. What you are saying tank drivers can do in the civilian world are the intangibles that pawnman listed; (self discipline, etc)

Tank drivers can do well in the civilian world, but it ain’t gonna be by driving a tank. My brother in law was Marine artillery and he had a helluva time finding a civilian employer who needed idf. He did get a good job working with the VA though, mainly due to him being a smart, hard working dude. 

[TreeA10]

The damage that is being done by the current and prior administrations and is going to have very long lasting effects.  The "is the sacrifice worth it?" question is being answered by those currently in the military and will be taught to their children.  Some will say "yes" but far too many will say "no" or even "hell no."  Both my sons asked me about the military and my recommendation was other options are out there unless you really have a burning desire to do something military related.

[brabus]

46 minutes ago, Bigred said:

He’s not. What you are saying tank drivers can do in the civilian world are the intangibles that pawnman listed; (self discipline, etc)

Tank drivers can do well in the civilian world, but it ain’t gonna be by driving a tank. My brother in law was Marine artillery and he had a helluva time finding a civilian employer who needed idf. He did get a good job working with the VA though, mainly due to him being a smart, hard working dude. 

You guys are terrible at critical reading. I directly said the hypothetical dude is not getting a civ tank driving job. I’m saying the experience he gains is a solid resume builder to help obtain good jobs in the civ world post-mil. Employers want to higher mil-experienced people, even if only for the perceived value of the “intangibles.” Of course its even better if the AFSC/MOS directly correlates to the same job in the civ world, but that’s not the only means the mil experience helps build resumes and land jobs. Bottom line, it’s still a great way for a young person out of HS to gain some valuable experience, build a resume, and be a more marketable and better hire in the civ world when they leave the mil. 
 

If it helps your mental block, replace tank driver with SARM (who I know several with excellent jobs not linked at all to aviation or the management of it), maintenance (know several who aren’t doing anything MX related in the civ world), etc. The only way a mil person doesn’t walk away with a leg up on their civ counterpart (apple to apples comparison) is if they have self doubt and downplay their own value…probably because they were told bullshit about how there’s no opportunity out there for them because there aren’t tank drivers at Walmart. 

Edited July 13, 2023 by brabus

[jice]

16 hours ago, brabus said:

You’re wrong. You’d be amazed at how well mil people of all backgrounds can do in the civ world assuming they don’t shoot themselves in the foot with a deflated sense of value and skills. 

This! And a lot of the skills military folks build and what gets them hired are not what shows up on the hiring announcement… I mean it could, but “ability to outmaneuver organizational stupidity and selectively admit to details of how something got done” and “comfort hurting feelings in order to win” usually gets scrubbed by HR before it goes out. 

[Standby]

1 hour ago, jice said:

This! And a lot of the skills military folks build and what gets them hired are not what shows up on the hiring announcement… I mean it could, but “ability to outmaneuver organizational stupidity and selectively admit to details of how something got done” and “comfort hurting feelings in order to win” usually gets scrubbed by HR before it goes out. 

An aircrew friend went to work for Gulfstream. Said individual provided critical, pointed feedback to a coworker regarding substandard performance. Said individual was subsequently ‘counseled’ by HR. The quote: “Listen…this isn’t the military. You can’t verbally punch people, you have to pet them.”

[jice]

2 hours ago, Standby said:

An aircrew friend went to work for Gulfstream. Said individual provided critical, pointed feedback to a coworker regarding substandard performance. Said individual was subsequently ‘counseled’ by HR. The quote: “Listen…this isn’t the military. You can’t verbally punch people, you have to pet them.”

I mean, yeah. Jobs are different. 95% of SA is just knowing what’s going on around you. 

[Danger41]

I’ve steered several friends toward the Ranger Regiment , NSW, the Marines, and AF Special Warfare. They all were worried about transferable skills and I told them if they could handle one of the aforementioned jobs, they’ll be able to get some job on the outside because they’ll be able to make things happen with a winning attitude. 
 

What really drove the point home to me was when I went to a recent reunion with a bunch of bros I played college football with. They all were so interested in my stories and a bunch (including 3 former and 1 current NFL player) said they wish they would’ve done that. 
 

Do cool shit with your life and don’t rush to being a fucking square.

[FourFans]

It's all perspective.

Most of us here are either in or past our mil experience, and it's always easy to poke holes after you've seen behind the curtain and understand all the mis-steps and mistakes that you did see until you were inside.  In the end though, I think recruiting for the military will always be difficult.  It should be.  "If it were easy, everyone would do it" and we don't want everyone.  In the same right, the US military has routinely produced men and women with strong character and solid teamwork skills.  It has to do with volunteering to do for other what they won't or can't do for themselves.  That take nobility.  It always will.

What is concerning is this line, which is ABSOLUTELY true.  

16 hours ago, TreeA10 said:

The damage that is being done by the current and prior administrations and is going to have very long lasting effects.

The quality of the members of the military will continue to be of noble character simply because it requires volunteering.  The effectiveness of the force, however, can only get betrayed by it's political leaders...as happened in AFG and is still happening with the social woke experimentation bullshit. 

If someone is joining solely for the benefits, yeah, they're gunna be sorely disappointed that it's not as benefit rich as working for Apple, Google, or Starbucks.  Frankly, it shouldn't be.  Baristas and coders are in the business of service and providing a product for the prime purpose of getting paid to do so.  Soldiers, sailors and airmen are in the business of visiting death and destruction on our nation's enemies.  Hardly a comparison there.

As to who someone becomes after serving even one four year stint, the results are undeniable.  Sure, not all job skills transfer.  But self confidence, decision making skills, and the ability to work in a team always do.  

At the heart of all this is that people need significance in their professional lives for them to care about what they do and who they are becoming.  I've definitely seen that need in people I work with in my civilian job.  Men and women want to know their work has made a difference.  Military operators rarely come out the other end of their service with that problem. 

What we do matters and THAT is what will ultimately keep younger generation continuing to volunteer.  There will always be bad leaders, politicians messing things up, and GO's that are completely worthless.  That's what makes the good leaders stand out so much.  The work will continue to be awesome and unique in ways that you simply can't get outside the military. 

I've been completely honest with my kids.  They're not at decision time yet, but my 14 year old son has already expressed interest in the cool things about the military, and even expressed that he'd love to fly the A-10.  I'm all about it, but I refuse to push him either way.  The best any of us can do is be honest and transparent.  The job will sell itself to those who we need.  It always has, and always will.  Hopefully, our political leaders will unass themselves, continue to fight for benefit improvement, and work for their people, instead of expecting their people to work for them.

Edited July 14, 2023 by FourFans

[Sua Sponte]

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2023/07/13/ordering-the-selected-reserve-and-certain-members-of-the-individual-ready-reserve-of-the-armed-forces-to-active-duty/

[LookieRookie]

On 7/12/2023 at 3:39 AM, brabus said:

. 

Also, don’t be obtuse, you know I’m not insinuating the hypothetical dude is going to get a civ tank driving job. He’s going to have a resume with skill sets that far outpace the hammer swinger, all while likely making more money and having greater benefits. That’s the point. 

Army enlisted have hard times finding careers post enlistment. Skills don’t translate and there is a stigma.

The AF provides highly technical training to a lot of the force.

[ClearedHot]

11 hours ago, Danger41 said:

I’ve steered several friends toward the Ranger Regiment , NSW, the Marines, and AF Special Warfare. They all were worried about transferable skills and I told them if they could handle one of the aforementioned jobs, they’ll be able to get some job on the outside because they’ll be able to make things happen with a winning attitude. 
 

What really drove the point home to me was when I went to a recent reunion with a bunch of bros I played college football with. They all were so interested in my stories and a bunch (including 3 former and 1 current NFL player) said they wish they would’ve done that. 
 

Do cool shit with your life and don’t rush to being a fucking square.

Concur, make a difference, have fulfillment and purpose.  You can always make a ton of $ later if that is your goal.  You get one life, make it count and leave a positive impact.

Having been on the outside for a bit now there is a transferable skill most in the military learn regardless of AFSC, LEADERSHIP.  Industry is HUNGRY for leaders and veterans tend to have the type of leadership qualities that separate them from their peers.  Most of us view our time in the military as a period where we learned a skill and to follow a chain of command.  While that is true the U.S. military at least attempts to train people to execute based on commander's intent.  For USAF people here we know one of our basic tenants of airpower is centralized control, decentralized execution.  Yes I know we often do a terrible job of sticking to this, but at a basic level we are trained to think, assess, and adjust to accomplish a mission based solely on commander's intent.  We are also used to being on a team and the ability to lead and serve on a team sets you apart from the herd. I can't tell you how many projects I've worked where other members of the so called team had information they didn't want to share until they were certain they would get credit.  Whether you fly a Raptor, drive a tank or are a TOW missile operator, you have skills you don't yet fully realize and you stand a much greater chance of success on the outside.

IMHO one of the main issues on the enlisted side is how liberalism has shaped the image of service.   If you are bored take a few minutes to Google LA Times and NY Times articles on JRTOC programs...you will find interesting quotes like "they target us"...."we are a juicy target"..."our kids are pushed into military service"..."a Trojan horse targeting students in low-income minority schools with high dropout rates."  Liberal thought leaders and institutions have shaped a negative narrative about military service and used that wedge to drastically reduce if not completely eliminate JROTC programs in most liberal states.  Currently JROTC is in just 10% of schools nation wide, in dense liberal population centers that number drops to far below 10% (New England 5% - California 6%).  Conversely, upwards of 65% of public schools in Louisiana Florida, Georgia, North Carolina and South Carolina have JTROC.  Not surprisingly 41% of all military recruits come from the south, 45% of all recruits come from a high school with a JRTOC program.  In other threads folks have debated the good and bad of JRTOC programs.  DoD recently put in a large effort to address many of the problems other have noted.  While the programs say they are not about recruiting there is obviously a pathway to military service for those that participate.  That being said, numerous studies have shown that students who participate in JROTC programs have better attendance, grades, and graduation rates relative to students who were in general academic programs.

[M2]

11 hours ago, FourFans said:

The quality of the members of the military will continue to be of noble character simply because it requires volunteering...

That one comment caught my attention, and I'd like to share a few (well, more than a "few") thoughts on it....

First, while I will agree that volunteers are more preferable than conscripts (having spent copious amounts of time in countries whose military is made up of the latter); I don't necessarily agree that voluntarily joining makes one of "noble character" as they are fairly well compensated for doing so!

I joined the USAF right after high school after discovering stocking shelves at Winn Dixie was not something I wanted to do when I got older (say, into my mid-to-late 20s!).  I barely had a education (and it's only gotten worse) and zero skills or experience other than the aforementioned grocery store job.  I was just above the minimum wage level and without more things to bring to the table, my chances for making more money and getting a less mundane job were low.

Joining the USAF gave me the opportunity to increase my "net worth" considerably while serving.  I got two degrees, a commission, and accomplished a long list of things I otherwise would not have had I not joined the military.

Yes, we all know the sacrifices required; but we also should have known those risks going into the agreement.  Even I, as a 18 year old dumbass, basically knew what would be required of me when in uniform.

But the volunteering difference really struck a cord with me after I retired and joined a State Defense Force thanks to a former USAF bud who was already in and talked me into it. 

If you are not familiar with those, they are military units who operate under the sole authority of a state government as authorized by state and Federal law (in 1940, Congress amended the National Defense Act of 1916 to allow them), and are under the command of the governor of each state.  State defense forces are distinct from National Guard units in that they cannot be Federalized, which in turn means no Federal funds can be used to sustain them.  

So what that boils down to is service in SDFs are true volunteers as they do so pro bono.  My TXARNG counterpart across the hall from my office at the armory makes $1,448.24 for his weekend, whereas not only am I unpaid but all my expenses (uniforms, equipment, meals gas, etc.) are out of pocket as well as the amount of time I have to put into my duties (usually in addition to drill, it's an hour or two daily, sometimes more).  As you can imagine, it gets to be a very expensive "hobby!"

So while I am no disparaging those on Active Duty or in the Guard and Reserves, I now have a second perspective of what "noble volunteerism" is about.  Honestly, when I get "thanked for my service" these days, I take it more to heart.

And, for anyone still interested enough to be reading this far, our mission for the state is mainly emergency management.  We can be activated more easily and quicker than our TXARNG and TXANG counterparts, and are trained to assist state and Federal agencies in establishing shelters and distribution points for disaster survivors.  We also have other related missions to include operating emergency tracking networks, supporting comms, security, SAR, conducting wide area searches in disaster areas, medical support, boat and dive crews, and anything else I can get my unit trained and certified to do.  Our mission is to initiate and sustain these operations until the TXARNG and TXANG can recall and deploy their troops and equipment into the area, which can take up to two weeks. 

Just to add, when we are activated on State Active Duty (SAD) orders we are eligible for per diem of $179/day but there is no rank pay at all.  So the E-1 is getting the same money as I am.  Also, we do have the opportunity to deploy to the Texas border mission (Operation LONE STAR) which has additional compensation to the tune of $84K/yr; but that is mainly offered to enlisted and CGOs.  I have about 27 troops on that mission at the moment...

So if you think it's tough trying to recruit and retain quality individuals for Active Duty, imagine the leadership challenge to do so for a mission which normally doesn't pay!  

[SocialD]

Well, I just learned something today, I had never heard of the SDF.  My state apparently has a Naval Militia as well...gotta keep those Cannucks from crossing Lake Erie!   Cool stuff.  

[herkbum]

1 hour ago, M2 said:

But the volunteering difference really struck a cord with me after I retired and joined a State Defense Force thanks to a former USAF bud who was already in and talked me into it. 

If you are not familiar with those, they are military units who operate under the sole authority of a state government as authorized by state and Federal law (in 1940, Congress amended the National Defense Act of 1916 to allow them), and are under the command of the governor of each state.  State defense forces are distinct from National Guard units in that they cannot be Federalized, which in turn means no Federal funds can be used to sustain them.  

So what that boils down to is service in SDFs are true volunteers as they do so pro bono.  My TXARNG counterpart across the hall from my office at the armory makes $1,448.24 for his weekend, whereas not only am I unpaid but all my expenses (uniforms, equipment, meals gas, etc.) are out of pocket as well as the amount of time I have to put into my duties (usually in addition to drill, it's an hour or two daily, sometimes more).  As you can imagine, it gets to be a very expensive "hobby!"

So while I am no disparaging those on Active Duty or in the Guard and Reserves, I now have a second perspective of what "noble volunteerism" is about.  Honestly, when I get "thanked for my service" these days, I take it more to heart.

And, for anyone still interested enough to be reading this far, our mission for the state is mainly emergency management.  We can be activated more easily and quicker than our TXARNG and TXANG counterparts, and are trained to assist state and Federal agencies in establishing shelters and distribution points for disaster survivors.  We also have other related missions to include operating emergency tracking networks, supporting comms, security, SAR, conducting wide area searches in disaster areas, medical support, boat and dive crews, and anything else I can get my unit trained and certified to do.  Our mission is to initiate and sustain these operations until the TXARNG and TXANG can recall and deploy their troops and equipment into the area, which can take up to two weeks. 

Just to add, when we are activated on State Active Duty (SAD) orders we are eligible for per diem of $179/day but there is no rank pay at all.  So the E-1 is getting the same money as I am.  Also, we do have the opportunity to deploy to the Texas border mission (Operation LONE STAR) which has additional compensation to the tune of $84K/yr; but that is mainly offered to enlisted and CGOs.  I have about 27 troops on that mission at the moment...

So if you think it's tough trying to recruit and retain quality individuals for Active Duty, imagine the leadership challenge to do so for a mission which normally doesn't pay!  

 

I worked with the TN guys when I was assigned to JFHQ and a friend of mine is the current CC for the state (at the rank of BG, he’s a retired ARNG O-6). Great group of folks!!


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

 

[General Chang]

On 7/11/2023 at 5:24 PM, tac airlifter said:

Great questions.  The answer is no.  Every GO sold out, repeated the same supportive tripe in public while privately voicing concern at our trajectory, yet continued up the chain of rank and pay.

Imagine if we had leaders who said this: “I resign from active service.  I love our country but cannot continue in good conscience to lead our men and women into danger with no clear objective or purpose.  Indecisive political policies are irresponsible, and I resign in hopes the ensuing attention will cause this matter to be taken seriously and resolved with urgency.”  
 

GOs reading this, and I know they are, will doubtlessly guffaw at the simplistic scenario I present above.  However, they lacked the courage to take bold action.  Everyone with combat experience knows we don’t have bold/courageous General Officers.  We have highly intellectual GOs who can stay up 20 hours a day, run miles each morning and work their staff to death analyzing a multitude of variables… but they aren’t bold and can’t win..  
 

So to the GOs readIng this in fury at my condemnation- I’m certain you think I am ignorant of how futile and ostracizing my proposed COA would be.  You’d be embarrassed in front of your peers.  It would be awkward and socially uncomfortable.  But had you played that card, you’d be a hero today.  Instead, congrats on the retired rank but you’re forever attached to the ignominy of how those wars ended.  FWIW I practice what I preach and burned every bridge on my way out over an issue to help my young squadron members.  It was uncomfortable going from #1 to the trash can, my peers and supervisors despised me at the end and I didn’t have a retirement ceremony over this issue.  However, I played every card and logged a major win for the young captains 6 weeks before retiring.  

Please.  Your ignorance about what goes into being at this level is abhorrent.

[GKinnear]

On 7/14/2023 at 8:41 AM, ClearedHot said:

Currently JROTC is in just 10% of schools nation wide, in dense liberal population centers that number drops to far below 10% (New England 5% - California 6%).  Conversely, upwards of 65% of public schools in Louisiana Florida, Georgia, North Carolina and South Carolina have JTROC.  Not surprisingly 41% of all military recruits come from the south, 45% of all recruits come from a high school with a JRTOC program.  In other threads folks have debated the good and bad of JRTOC programs.  DoD recently put in a large effort to address many of the problems other have noted.  While the programs say they are not about recruiting there is obviously a pathway to military service for those that participate.  That being said, numerous studies have shown that students who participate in JROTC programs have better attendance, grades, and graduation rates relative to students who were in general academic programs.

I know this is a military forum, dealing with military issues...but the JROTC decline is not an isolated event.  Any youth development organization that's been around for ~100 years or so is also facing a decline in membership.  Scouting, faith-based youth groups, HS arts programs, etc.  From my perspective, Club and HS sports seem to be main remaining avenues to mentor and grow kids into Adults that are contributing members to society...and their focus isn't necessarily on Civics, Service to Others, Mom and Apple pie type issues.

Change is inevitable, and in this case, I don't think the societal 'need' that JROTC filled has had a suitable replacement designed, let alone delivered.

[pbar]

On 7/16/2023 at 8:21 AM, GKinnear said:

I know this is a military forum, dealing with military issues...but the JROTC decline is not an isolated event.  Any youth development organization that's been around for ~100 years or so is also facing a decline in membership.  Scouting, faith-based youth groups, HS arts programs, etc.  From my perspective, Club and HS sports seem to be main remaining avenues to mentor and grow kids into Adults that are contributing members to society...and their focus isn't necessarily on Civics, Service to Others, Mom and Apple pie type issues.

Change is inevitable, and in this case, I don't think the societal 'need' that JROTC filled has had a suitable replacement designed, let alone delivered.

Small sample size but the cohort of kids who were in middle school during COVID seem particularly unmotivated to do anything.  All of the coaches/teachers I work with (teach AFJROTC) say enrollment is down in clubs, sports, dance, band, etc. despite the overall population of our high school increasing.  Several other AFJROTC instructors I talked to our summer camp said the same thing about their schools.