Recruiting Crisis: 9% want to serve

[tac airlifter]

17 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

I used to think I was a Libertarian until I realized it's the same as a Progressive at the functional level. Ideologies that require a history they abhor to create a safe society that allows them to hold impractical absolutist ideals.

Shack.  
 

I am philosophically sympathetic and enjoy libertarian discussions as a thought experiment or conversation starter; however as a movement they’ve proven incapable of operationalizing anything.  They can’t compromise, can’t organize, and will unfortunately remain politically irrelevant.  

[kaputt]

He still never actually answered why conscription is slavery. 
 

 

[busdriver]

20 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

I used to think I was a Libertarian until 

1 hour ago, tac airlifter said:

as a movement they’ve proven incapable of operationalizing anything.  

don't confuse bug L with little l.  The group of people who think of themselves in something like libertarian are not a movement.  It's more like a collection of wierdos, wonks, and philosophers.  Many of them very much disagree with one another.  And hence why the party itself will never amount to anything.

8 minutes ago, kaputt said:

He still never actually answered why conscription is slavery. 

It's not hard dude.   You can't enter someone into a contractual agreement without their consent.  Conscription is literally that, with unlimited liability.  You can have a nut with pedantry around the definition of slavery if you like though.

[Lord Ratner]

1 hour ago, busdriver said:

don't confuse bug L with little l.  The group of people who think of themselves in something like libertarian are not a movement.  It's more like a collection of wierdos, wonks, and philosophers.  Many of them very much disagree with one another.  And hence why the party itself will never amount to anything.

It's not hard dude.   You can't enter someone into a contractual agreement without their consent.  Conscription is literally that, with unlimited liability.  You can have a nut with pedantry around the definition of slavery if you like though.

You do enter with consent. As an adult you can fuck off to somewhere else if you don't like it. You just can't wait until your number is called to suddenly want to leave the country. 

 

No other better options? Welcome to reality. This is like complaining that it's oppressive to be born as a male or female. I guess, but those are the options. There are biological realities to being human, and there are social realities to being human. The United States has done a better job than any state in history at mitigating the social downsides of humanity while still maintaining a system that functions across multiple generations/centuries. That doesn't mean every draft is just; Vietnam was a joke. But WWII was not. 

 

As I said, libertarianism as a  practical ideology is great until you actually need to run a society. It's a solid starting point for any political conversation, but the absolutism inherent in the ideology is why it can never actually work. 

[kaputt]

Most libertarians I've met and interacted with are weirdos who have one or more things they like or want to do that are either illegal or highly regulated (for completely legitimate reasons) and wish those barriers didn't exist. 

Turns out if libertarians as a group had their way it would just mostly be anarchy. 

Edited June 20 by kaputt

[busdriver]

25 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

You do enter with consent. As an adult you can fuck off to somewhere else if you don't like it. You just can't wait until your number is called to suddenly want to leave the country. 

No other better options? Welcome to reality. This is like complaining that it's oppressive to be born as a male or female. I guess, but those are the options. There are biological realities to being human, and there are social realities to being human. The United States has done a better job than any state in history at mitigating the social downsides of humanity while still maintaining a system that functions across multiple generations/centuries. That doesn't mean every draft is just; Vietnam was a joke. But WWII was not. 

As I said, libertarianism as a  practical ideology is great until you actually need to run a society. It's a solid starting point for any political conversation, but the absolutism inherent in the ideology is why it can never actually work. 

Limiting this to the US: you are draft eligible the day you turn 18.  That's a hell of deadline.  Being born and then not leaving is hardly consent.  Apply that logic to the the chick at the frat party.

You can argue that it's necessary to ensure survival of a nation, sometimes shitty actions can be required, fair enough.  But arguing that makes it moral is nothing more than consequentialism.  If that's your thing, so be it.

 

We're not actually disagreeing on the ideology part by the way.  All ideologies are only useful as temporary lens to look at problems.  Being dogmatic about things never leads anywhere productive.

[Lawman]

Limiting this to the US: you are draft eligible the day you turn 18.  That's a hell of deadline.  Being born and then not leaving is hardly consent.  Apply that logic to the the chick at the frat party.
You can argue that it's necessary to ensure survival of a nation, sometimes shitty actions can be required, fair enough.  But arguing that makes it moral is nothing more than consequentialism.  If that's your thing, so be it.
 
We're not actually disagreeing on the ideology part by the way.  All ideologies are only useful as temporary lens to look at problems.  Being dogmatic about things never leads anywhere productive.

But that’s the problem with the vocal ultra libertarian slogans like “conscription is slavery” or “taxation is theft.” They sound nice when shouted philosophically to a room of like opinions, but no different than “believe the science” or “believe all women,” they are just that… slogans. They aren’t meant to be ignorant of nuance and accepted as bold faced boiler plate logic.


Libertarian absolutism buts against the reality of societal contractual obligations. It’s like yes, you get to have freedoms… in a society… so long as we can maintain the societal status quo. And just as believing taxation is theft but expecting protection from outside forces, there is the reality that conscription is an agreed upon by consensus of a societal contract for participation. We don’t use it now in the status quo of taxing too and forming a profession of arms. That doesn’t mean it’s not a valid contingency for the continued preservation or restoration of a society, no different extremis areas like martial law.


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[busdriver]

42 minutes ago, Lawman said:

 And just as believing taxation is theft but expecting protection from outside forces, there is the reality that conscription is an agreed upon by consensus of a societal contract for participation. 

Agreed on by whom?  If the person to do the fighting doesn't agree, then....  Again see chick at frat party analogy. 

This line of argument is pure consequentialist utilitarianism.

And yes, taxation is clearly theft.  However, I nor anyone else has a workable alternative, so we live with an imperfect solution.   And a nation facing a perceived existential threat may do some shitty things to survive.  Shit happens.

But, that doesn't make either un-alloyed good, moral acts.

[Lawman]

Agreed on by whom?  If the person to do the fighting doesn't agree, then....  Again see chick at frat party analogy. 
This line of argument is pure consequentialist utilitarianism.
And yes, taxation is clearly theft.  However, I nor anyone else has a workable alternative, so we live with an imperfect solution.   And a nation facing a perceived existential threat may do some shitty things to survive.  Shit happens.
But, that doesn't make either un-alloyed good, moral acts.

Dude… vote. That’s your voice, and after that deal with the results.

The second people scream dumb mottos like “taxation is theft” my immediate question is do you expect the fire department to show up if you call 911, or an ambulance to come when your kid gets hit by a car riding his bike? Do you like knowing your tap water isn’t full of some heavy metal chemical because an agency is insuring people aren’t violating the law? If you want these things, there is a social cost associated with an understood social contract. Part of that societal contract waaaaaaay down in the fine print is the understanding that we will abandon the status quo to defend it. Maybe that’s with massive reapplication of resources and industry, or maybe that’s with bodies whether they are direct combatants or they are (more likely) the immediately deputized post conflict population the maintain some semblance of order and protection while we get society back on its feet. That’s really where the plan for conscription is.

We could be more “free” without those things… there are plenty of countries attempting that method of freedom. Nobody comfortable in the US would probably want the trade offs that come with it.


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[Lord Ratner]

2 hours ago, busdriver said:

Limiting this to the US: you are draft eligible the day you turn 18.  That's a hell of deadline.  Being born and then not leaving is hardly consent.  Apply that logic to the the chick at the frat party.

As I said, there are simply realities of being human. One of them is that you are stuck on a giant ball full of other people. You have to be born to people who you have no control over their beliefs or ideologies. Just like your children will be. It is impossible to exist in a society that does not place obligations on you, because the very existence of that society required obligations of others.

Libertarianism is arguing for something that cannot exist. 

Also, taxation is not theft. Taxation is taxation. It's just another thing that you don't have to do. Don't work, there is absolutely no forcing function for work, and you can live your whole life without paying any taxes. Of course if you want any of the luxuries provided for in a modern society, especially one that is heavily capitalist (as the libertarians so dearly love), then you have to make some sacrifices to get what you want, because you expect to get those things from other people. Those other people have formed a society that has things like taxation and conscription.

Like Lawman, just vote. The libertarians have quite consistently gotten dog shit results in every election, which means people simply don't agree with them. But those majorities are supposed to adapt to the desires of the libertarians? 

There is a lot of very good foundational theory in libertarianism. But when you get to the practical level it's almost always a bunch of well-off intelligent people with limited experience dealing with the weakest/dumbest/most psychotic in our population. The libertarian stance on drug policy is a perfect example.

[busdriver]

2 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Libertarianism is arguing for something that cannot exist. 

Also, taxation is not theft. Taxation is taxation........formed a society .......

But those majorities are supposed to adapt to the desires of the libertarians? 

There is a lot of very good foundational theory in libertarianism.

Don't make the mistake in thinking libertarianism is a single coherent political ideology.  It isn't.  I mean there are people who claim that mantel while being anarcho-commies.  I'm not even sure how that makes sense, but whatever.

In any event, I am not arguing for anything in particular here at all.  I'm simply saying a violation of individual liberty is exactly that.  Other people's desires means nothing in that context.

If you want to make the argument that good outcomes determine the morality of acts, have fun.  I very much disagree, lots of death and suffering throughout history is down the consequentialist path.

 

[Lord Ratner]

36 minutes ago, busdriver said:

Don't make the mistake in thinking libertarianism is a single coherent political ideology.  It isn't.  I mean there are people who claim that mantel while being anarcho-commies.  I'm not even sure how that makes sense, but whatever.

In any event, I am not arguing for anything in particular here at all.  I'm simply saying a violation of individual liberty is exactly that.  Other people's desires means nothing in that context.

If you want to make the argument that good outcomes determine the morality of acts, have fun.  I very much disagree, lots of death and suffering throughout history is down the consequentialist path.

 

Individual liberty is *one* factor in the creation of a nation. If it was the only factor, there would be no nation in the first place. You determine which individual liberties you violate by measuring how they allow for the exercise of freedom by others. The simple example is laws against murder. Your individual liberty to kill who you want infringes on the victim's right to life as they see fit (or at all).

We, as a society, decided that police are the mechanism for enforcing laws, and that requires money, which requires taxation. Your freedom to not pay taxes is infringed because the police must exist to enforce your many other freedoms. 

 

Obviously there are plenty of laws and regulations that fail this balancing test, but that does not nullify the concept. "Taxation is theft" is some truly Simple Jack political reasoning.

 

Once again, name a single functional society in all of human existence that persisted without conscription or taxation. Until then it's no more a valid political construct than communism. Atlas Shrugged was a fictional love story, not a handbook for running a nation. 

[Danger41]

When I was in my angsty libertarian phase, God blessed me with the funniest shit ever. Libertarians manifest destinied a town in New Hampshire and put their full jihad into effect and soon bears invaded the town and took over as everything fell apart in a couple weeks. So funny.

https://newrepublic.com/article/159662/libertarian-walks-into-bear-book-review-free-town-project

[Lord Ratner]

24 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

When I was in my angsty libertarian phase

Dude, thank you, that's the best way I've seen it described. 

 

Libertarianism is the conservative version of a girl being "bi" in college, or a high-schooler wearing a Che Guevara t shirt, or a soccer mom getting a tramp stamp. 

Also that article is hilarious

Edited June 20 by Lord Ratner

[HeloDude]

17 hours ago, kaputt said:

He still never actually answered why conscription is slavery. 
 

 

Forcing someone to do a job they don’t want to do and the one doing the enforcement dictates the terms.  Slavery and conscription both meet these definitions.

[Lord Ratner]

53 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

Forcing someone to do a job they don’t want to do and the one doing the enforcement dictates the terms.  Slavery and conscription both meet these definitions.

So does childhood. 

[Smokin]

As well as someone that signs up for a 10 year pilot commitment and then wants out 3 years later.  You can apply the same 'chick at a frat party' to that scenario.

[busdriver]

16 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Obviously there are plenty of laws and regulations that fail this balancing test,

Dude, you're railing against straw men.  I made no absolutist policy arguments.  But the above is the whole point. 

Have fun.  I'm done.

[Lord Ratner]

4 hours ago, busdriver said:

Dude, you're railing against straw men.  I made no absolutist policy arguments.  But the above is the whole point. 

Have fun.  I'm done.

Calling taxation theft and conscription slavery is absolutist.

But anyways, bye.

[HeloDude]

What’s funny, is that if the AF/government put in stop loss, made you go on another 365, made you permanently go to a non-flying assignment you hated, your most hated base, etc most of you would be bitching up a storm how they were screwing you…but allow the government to grab some random 18 year old, force him to go to boot camp, serve in a war where they’re living like complete crap and getting shot out, and most of you are like, yeah, that’s fine.

[Boomer6]

Let's see if I've got this right. Bus says taxation is theft. The taxation that paid for his helo, his crew chief's BAH, possibly even a few TDYs to see juicies abroad. You knowingly flew said helo purchased with stolen money, allowed your crew chief to morally debase themselves by using tools purchased with stolen money to work on said stolen helo, and may or may not have used stolen per diem to pay for 5min with a questionally female possibly Filipino individual.

Yet, believing all of that was theft, you did it anyways, and now you're claiming moral high ground?

Bruh...

Edited June 21 by Boomer6

[Lord Ratner]

55 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

What’s funny, is that if the AF/government put in stop loss, made you go on another 365, made you permanently go to a non-flying assignment you hated, your most hated base, etc most of you would be bitching up a storm how they were screwing you…but allow the government to grab some random 18 year old, force him to go to boot camp, serve in a war where they’re living like complete crap and getting shot out, and most of you are like, yeah, that’s fine.

You can't be this silly. Have you ever heard a single person going on a 365 seriously claim that they were being enslaved?

 

No one said you had to be happy about being drafted, just like you don't have to be happy about that 365. 

 

If obligations didn't suck, they'd be hobbies. This would be a bit less painful if you guys just admitted you got a little over your skis with the slavery and theft nonsense, and instead just critiqued conscription in a somewhat less hyperbolic manner.

[busdriver]

10 hours ago, Boomer6 said:

Yet, believing all of that was theft, you did it anyways, and now you're claiming moral high ground?

You're thinkin about me an awful lot.  

Tell your mom hi.

Edited June 21 by busdriver

[Boomer6]

She's wants to know how your sex change went, funded with stolen money no doubt..

[Biff_T]

Big gulps huh