Gallup Poll - Americans confidence in military lowest in decades.

[gearhog]

I pulled a chair up to the window here in Crystal City, and I can see part of the puzzle palace, the monument, and the Dome. I'm not as impressed as I once was. Believe it or not, I'm constantly challenging my own thoughts more than anyone else and I don't like the feeling of, or giving the perception of, shytting on my country. But just when I convince myself that my concerns are overwrought, they get reinforced. Like this article from Gallup.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/509189/confidence-military-lowest-two-decades.aspx

My career in service was a pretty big chapter in my life so I have an interest in whether my investment was a wise one. Yesterday, I saw a video of a 100 year old Marine Vet crying over America and how it isn't what he fought for. Pretty sad. I don't want to be that guy. But why is it average Americans have such a dim view of the military during one of the most dangerous times in recent memory?

 

[Boomer6]

I could care less what average Americans think. In fact, there are only a handful of Americans whose opinions I actually care about. If I wanted to be held on a pedestal by average Americans I would have become a firefighter. Just one man’s opinion.

 

[raimius]

Sometimes I don't like how things are going...but an analysis of alternatives doesn't offer a ton of better options.  Keep working to keep your neighborhood (literally and figuratively) in good shape and encourage others to do the same.

 

Edit: when asking for faith in the military, it's a really broad question.  Do I think we can destroy any enemy nation? Yup!  Do I think the DoD always makes the best decisions and takes care of people?...not as much.

Edited August 1, 2023 by raimius

[BashiChuni]

i can't imagine why!

[Sim]

More info is needed. Confidence to do what exactly?  

[brabus]

The old adage of don’t put yourself in a position that requires superior flying skills to get out of applies - I’m confident leadership will fuck it away and put the bros in a square corner, but I'm also confident the bros will excel and make it happen in spite of the asshatery that got them in a shitty starting position. 

[HeloDude]

Afghanistan 

[Majestik Møøse]

1 hour ago, HeloDude said:

Afghanistan 

It was the military’s fault for never pushing back, first on regime change without economic investment and then on leaving based on an arbitrary timetable.

Edit: ok I just read the article, and from looking at the graphs the confidence increases greatly when your favorite politician is president. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Majestik Møøse

[Danger41]

I hate to see an older American in that distress, but it doesn’t surprise me. I belong to the Daedalians along with my dad and attend meetings whenever I can. I’m the only still active flight suit wearing dude there and most of them were Vietnam guys with a few before that (including guys that participated in Ploesti and P-51 pilots with kills that were also shot down). They always absolutely grill me about all the culture war talking points about LGBTQ+ stuff, woke policies, socialism, etc. They then don’t believe me when I say I don’t see that stuff and haven’t seen it. We all then have beers and burgers at the O club and shoot our watches for awhile and have a great time. I recommend pilots look into it and hear some great stories before they aren’t around to tell them. Navs and other folks have fraternal orgs that I’m sure are great, as well.’

On the topic of military confidence, I personally have great confidence in our American military to fight and win our nations no shit wars. If you let the military off the chain with a clear objective and victory criteria, I have no doubt that we will get there. I have way less confidence in our ability to do small, dirty wars successfully that require significant political involvement and clear, consistent military strategy. 
 

I also don’t have a ton of confidence in our Generals ability to handle entire campaigns beyond the initial actions. This video from Tom Ricks discusses how relieving Flag Officers in WW2 was much more common and not a career killer. It was based on performance. 

My $0.02

[SocialD]

I have great faith in our military.  They'll get shit done if they're given the keys to the car with little to no cuffs.  I do not trust my government to give them that freedom.  In the days of live feeds, precision everything, our leaders unnecessarily hamper our efforts.  Make it fast, make it violent, get in and get out.  Given the opportunity, that's what we do best.

[ClearedHot]

5 hours ago, Danger41 said:

I hate to see an older American in that distress, but it doesn’t surprise me. I belong to the Daedalians along with my dad and attend meetings whenever I can. I’m the only still active flight suit wearing dude there and most of them were Vietnam guys with a few before that (including guys that participated in Ploesti and P-51 pilots with kills that were also shot down). They always absolutely grill me about all the culture war talking points about LGBTQ+ stuff, woke policies, socialism, etc. They then don’t believe me when I say I don’t see that stuff and haven’t seen it. We all then have beers and burgers at the O club and shoot our watches for awhile and have a great time. I recommend pilots look into it and hear some great stories before they aren’t around to tell them. Navs and other folks have fraternal orgs that I’m sure are great, as well.’

On the topic of military confidence, I personally have great confidence in our American military to fight and win our nations no shit wars. If you let the military off the chain with a clear objective and victory criteria, I have no doubt that we will get there. I have way less confidence in our ability to do small, dirty wars successfully that require significant political involvement and clear, consistent military strategy. 
 

I also don’t have a ton of confidence in our Generals ability to handle entire campaigns beyond the initial actions. This video from Tom Ricks discusses how relieving Flag Officers in WW2 was much more common and not a career killer. It was based on performance. 

My $0.02

Great post until you got to Ole Tom, I sadly have lots of scar tissue with this turd.  Had the unfortunate occurrence of dealing with him when I was in the ASG program and again at War College.  While he has written some good books and won two Pulitzer prizes, he is EXTREMELY myopic and rabidly averse to any feedback or push back on his thoughts...oh and is single-minded in thinking warfare is only about those on the ground.

Some of the other gems he has proposed since writing Fiasco, Bring back the draft, get rid of American Aircraft Carriers, Politics is an irrelevant art not a science, He launched a personal attack and wrote an op-ed attacking a War College classmate of mine when his paper was about pushing back against illegal orders was published.   In short, the paper was about pushing back against immoral and illegal orders and accepting the consequences for doing so.  Ricks accused the offer of pushing back against civilian control of the military and wanted him out of the service.  Luckily others stepped in to debunk Ricks who in my opinion didn't even read the article. 

Add to these my personal favorite that he said to my face "Airpower and what Airmen did in Iraq and Afghanistan was of no consequence or interest to me." 

[HeloDude]

9 hours ago, Majestik Møøse said:

It was the military’s fault for never pushing back, first on regime change without economic investment and then on leaving based on an arbitrary timetable.

The military leadership reported/testified time after time how things were getting so much better in Afghanistan, how the Afghans were making all the improvements, etc.  They were either lying or severely misinformed by their own subordinate leaders—regardless, the military deserves a lot of the blame.

[Day Man]

2 hours ago, HeloDude said:

The military leadership reported/testified time after time how things were getting so much better in Afghanistan, how the Afghans were making all the improvements, etc.  They were either lying or severely misinformed by their own subordinate leaders—regardless, the military deserves a lot of the blame.

bingo...not only did they not push back, they were complicit.

[Majestik Møøse]

On 8/1/2023 at 8:29 AM, HeloDude said:

The military leadership reported/testified time after time how things were getting so much better in Afghanistan, how the Afghans were making all the improvements, etc.  They were either lying or severely misinformed by their own subordinate leaders—regardless, the military deserves a lot of the blame.

Bobs lie to their bosses about how things are going. The Russians did it leading up to the Ukraine invasion and I’ve seen it amongst our own O-6s+ in real time. The Full Bird Reset (where they fall in line with the orders of their superiors with the renewed loyalty of an E-1) is a real phenomenon and I swear they can’t see that they’re doing it. Policies, Guidance, Ways Forward, already decided COAs - written by a non-expert AO/staffer and approved with a nod from a 4-star - could be completely out to lunch but if there’s even a perception that an O-6+ is pushing back they’re done career-wise. Read about Xi’s Thoughts where everyone in the Chinese government is required to understand and think the same way as Xi…can anyone see echoes of that mentality in our own failed endeavors?

The good news is that we’re different, because that lockstep mentality doesn’t exist at most of the Capt-Maj aircrew level. There are enough of them that they can air their informed opinions and grievances when things aren’t looking quite right, but still remain relatively anonymous. And sometimes that trickles up, skipping echelons when the wise GOs wander down to the slums to get a feel for things. Which is their duty, IMO. Don’t ever lie to your boss.

[brabus]

I’ve told 3/4 stars a few times a COA was bad, why it was bad, and what COA should be executed and why. I’m about 50/50 success rate. The one thing I did note across all of those interactions is the GO was genuinely interested in my thoughts and appreciated my effort whether they went my direction or not. The O-6 level was pissed I would dare to speak. It made me realize how much good things are filtered away from GOs at the O-6 level and replaced with yes man bullshit.  

[GKinnear]

I’ve told 3/4 stars a few times a COA was bad, why it was bad, and what COA should be executed and why. I’m about 50/50 success rate. The one thing I did note across all of those interactions is the GO was genuinely interested in my thoughts and appreciated my effort whether they went my direction or not. The O-6 level was pissed I would dare to speak. It made me realize how much good things are filtered away from GOs at the O-6 level and replaced with yes man bullshit.  

I'm old enough to remember a scene in M*A*S*H, where COL Potter stated that other "Colonels are chasing that star that they'll do almost anything"...or something similar.

Its a little disheartening that a line from a 70s TV show is the reality 50 years later. But I keep that in mind when I see the Council of Colonels in group-think mode.

Most GOs, that I've worked with at least, enjoy the conflicting view point...presented in a unemotional & professional manner. Shoe Clerk Chief of Staffs in particular seem to get bent out of shape when that happens.

Or I could just be the asshole who somehow keeps surviving.

Sent from my SM-N976V using Baseops Network mobile app

[Majestik Møøse]

2 hours ago, brabus said:

The one thing I did note across all of those interactions is the GO was genuinely interested in my thoughts and appreciated my effort whether they went my direction or not. The O-6 level was pissed I would dare to speak.

Exactly the same experience.

Reminded me heavily of the board room scene from Margin Call (which by the way is an outstanding movie heavily inspired by the Lehman Brothers collapse): the big boss at the head of the table engaged directly with the analyst who’s telling him “there’s a big problem that’s going to tank us all”, while the middle managers in between just want him to be quiet because they all want to hide mistakes or don’t really know what’s going on. Or a little bit of both. “You’re talking to me, Mr. Sullivan.”

[Majestik Møøse]

I should say - to be 100% truthy - I’ve worked with some great O-6s. But they were in the minority, and at some point almost all of them said something that made me think twice. Never let your guard down. The really good O-6s we’re the ones that shielded you from bullshit so you could remain of pure heart and mind and give them the best information possible.

[MCO]

On 8/6/2023 at 12:57 AM, brabus said:

I’ve told 3/4 stars a few times a COA was bad, why it was bad, and what COA should be executed and why. I’m about 50/50 success rate. The one thing I did note across all of those interactions is the GO was genuinely interested in my thoughts and appreciated my effort whether they went my direction or not. The O-6 level was pissed I would dare to speak. It made me realize how much good things are filtered away from GOs at the O-6 level and replaced with yes man bullshit.  

I was in a briefing with a bunch of 3 stars and a 4 star. Our team briefed some COAs and a 3 star asked the briefer why some majors and Lt Cols think they get a say when the proposed COA was presented. As the briefer was trying to find words the 4 star said I’m going with their suggested COA. Briefing concluded.

Edited August 6, 2023 by MCO

[The46IsntThatBad]

I have the utmost faith in the bros and broettes next to me that are putting iron in the air and hacking the mish. I have extremely little faith in often extremely disconnected senior leaders and in our political officials. The later more often than not affects the former in getting anything meaningful done.