T-38 circling approach

[HeyEng]

As a former FE in the AF as well as civilian life I never had the pleasure of flying an aircraft with wings the size of credit cards so this video was very informative. I never realized that the T-38 was a category E approach aircraft but it should have been obvious since the wings are essentially scaled down from an F-104. 
The author states that we have been crashing T-38’s on circling approaches for 50+ years so I have to ask, is this type of training really that necessary on the T-38?

https://youtu.be/huYvrZm_Y_M?si=UnqokXrEaumim5Mi

[Danger41]

I definitely think it's valuable training, regardless of the training aircraft. Being able to control your altitude in a dirty configuration and think ahead enough to set yourself up to land is a challenging skill.

In my 20 years of flying, I've had to do exactly 2 circling approaches for real. Both of them were straight out of the sim where if I went 10 feet above the MDA, I was in the weather. I've probably practiced it 690 times so I was well prepared, but it's definitely a valuable skill to have.

[HeyEng]

I don’t doubt that circling approaches are a necessary training requirement, I just wonder if it’s necessary to do that type of training in a T-38.

On another note, when I worked at ATA we used to regularly do a “circling” type of approach on the 727 in to Midway airport although technically it was a visual maneuver but the pilots who had training in circling approaches did much better than those who didn’t. 

[LookieRookie]

It’s a white jet semi annual currency requirement

[Standby]

Circling in the T-38 isn’t any riskier than a normal overhead. From what I remember, a low closed pattern is usually lower than Cat E circling mins. I’ve seen more dangerous situations develop in the tiger patterns than the circling approaches. Part of the reason we have stall/sink awareness and not just stall awareness requirements. 

[TreeA10]

1200 hours in the T-38 and never had a scary moment during a circling approach. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the "my jet" and go-around with selected  throttle position proportional to pucker factor during overhead patterns. Roll, relax, max works every time.

Edited October 19, 2023 by TreeA10

[SocialD]

2k hours in fighters, and the only time I ever circled was on the my I-3, which was the last of 3 Inst rides in the B-Course.  Probably still a decent thing to practice, but it certainly doesn't get much use.  

[ClearedHot]

T-38 circling....pish posh, try a summertime single-engine pinto pattern right after takeoff in Del Rio.

[Skitzo]

Circling approaches are more dangerous than anyone realizes for reasons not mentioned in the video.

First at least from my corner of the world there was generally very little thought into how to execute the maneuver ie: fly 30 degrees off runway heading for x seconds to obtain proper lateral distance for final turn. I generally assumed this to be because the PC-12 airframe is pretty versatile.

Second the ROC for the MDA puts you pretty close to the obstacle if you have even a modest deviation from the minimums and any sort of altimeter error. I never understood why the U28 V2 stated Q- for any deviation below the MDA even if momentary after AIS I finally understood.

Second the ROC in the FAA remains constant irregardless of Circling Category vice ICAO where the ROC increases the higher your category is. Cat A ICAO = 300. Cat D = ~394

Third in the FAA, TERPS criteria uses a floating scale from 25 at A to 22 degrees bank at Cat E whereas ICAO uses 20 degrees bank.

With 75 feet of altimeter error and a deviation of 100 feet from the MDA you could be within 125 feet of the obstacle you really don’t want to contact.

It’s not a dangerous maneuver when planned correctly and when you are aware of the risks but it’s seldomly trained to or executed in that manner, it’s a bean.

I have heard from bros who have gone to the airlines circling is almost treated like an EP.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HossHarris]

Meh. Get below the weather, look outside and make it happen. 

[hindsight2020]

I didn't even need to click the link, I knew it was gonna be that guy's channel. I've already had to debunk his Pepperidge farms story about how " back in edwards" they flew 105KCAS final approaches. Internet pedestrians eat that guano up. The boomer may mean well, but his shtick is misinformation by dated brain proxy. The fact he puts up pictures of the CBM Japanese student crash as his lead-in, as a guy with fvck all safety access anymore, tells me all I need to know.

BL, there's definitively a demand for youtuber subscribers fascinated by the "10% story" musings of .mil has-beens.

 

[HuggyU2]

I hear all of the pointy-noses guys saying T-38 training needs to be more relevant to what they do. 
I imagine circling isn't a big priority in F-22 and F-35 real world ops. Probably not in the B-2 and upcoming B-21 either. 
There are only so many bananas in the UPT syllabus. Save circling for FTU if needed  

But bring back formation landings, you pussies! 

[ClearedHot]

7 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

But bring back formation landings, you pussies! 

Amen!  And you never forget your first time.

I know it gets to be normal ops but I will never forget my first formation landing in the 38.  I did NOT want to screw up and I was extremely focused (probably holding the stick so hard I had no blood in my fingers).  About halfway down final I distinctly recall having a near out of body experience and thinking "man this is so fucking cool, I wish I could do this...WAIT...I AM doing this!"

[Standby]

5 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

Amen!  And you never forget your first time.

I know it gets to be normal ops but I will never forget my first formation landing in the 38.  I did NOT want to screw up and I was extremely focused (probably holding the stick so hard I had no blood in my fingers).  About halfway down final I distinctly recall having a near out of body experience and thinking "man this is so fucking cool, I wish I could do this...WAIT...I AM doing this!"

I remember my first, and also one of nearly my last. As a student on the wing of the OG…he decided that leaving the power back at 80% post-correction while on ILS glidepath and hard IMC was good for formation integrity. I was having a hell of a time staying in position but didn’t have the SA to cross check my airspeed. Apparently my IP, and lead didn’t either. So off we went into an IMC, fingertip TP stall at 600’ AGL. That was just enough altitude for us to fall away from each other and break out of the weather. Lead was about 500’ in front and landed about 3k down. I didn’t keep the burners lit as long and touched down 750’ down, 30kts flared off. Good times. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Standby

[LookieRookie]

23 hours ago, Skitzo said:

Circling approaches are more dangerous than anyone realizes for reasons not mentioned in the video.

First at least from my corner of the world there was generally very little thought into how to execute the maneuver ie: fly 30 degrees off runway heading for x seconds to obtain proper lateral distance for final turn. I generally assumed this to be because the PC-12 airframe is pretty versatile.

Second the ROC for the MDA puts you pretty close to the obstacle if you have even a modest deviation from the minimums and any sort of altimeter error. I never understood why the U28 V2 stated Q- for any deviation below the MDA even if momentary after AIS I finally understood.

Second the ROC in the FAA remains constant irregardless of Circling Category vice ICAO where the ROC increases the higher your category is. Cat A ICAO = 300. Cat D = ~394

Third in the FAA, TERPS criteria uses a floating scale from 25 at A to 22 degrees bank at Cat E whereas ICAO uses 20 degrees bank.

With 75 feet of altimeter error and a deviation of 100 feet from the MDA you could be within 125 feet of the obstacle you really don’t want to contact.

It’s not a dangerous maneuver when planned correctly and when you are aware of the risks but it’s seldomly trained to or executed in that manner, it’s a bean.

I have heard from bros who have gone to the airlines circling is almost treated like an EP.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A circling approach is a visual maneuver under an IFR clearance.

 

There is no need to time.

[JBueno]

If I’m not mistaken, one ironic thing about “circling” at Midway was that it wasn’t uncommon to fly well outside the circling mins to like a four mile final.

Edited October 21, 2023 by JBueno

[arg]

This is getting almost as good as listening to gunship pilots argue about how to fly an orbit.

[Danger41]

21 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

A circling approach is a visual maneuver under an IFR clearance.

 

There is no need to time.

Pretty sure he’s referring to the techniques of a deliberate offset for a known amount of time to build in final turn spacing. 
 

And I get the overall vibe about joking about instrument flying and just make it happen but I’ve lost a couple of friends to mistakes in instrument flying (which I’m sure a lot of you have as well) so I am a hammer when it comes to instrument procedures. 

[hindsight2020]

1 hour ago, Danger41 said:

And I get the overall vibe about joking about instrument flying and just make it happen but I’ve lost a couple of friends to mistakes in instrument flying (which I’m sure a lot of you have as well) so I am a hammer when it comes to instrument procedures. 

Indeed I have, as well.

The irony of course, when it comes to that insufferable "your entire livelihood...is just my motherhood" attitude,  is that the plurality of that demographic's personnel losses rests squarely at the hands of the very mOthErHooD they deride as scutwork. Miscontrol/Loss of control in IMC, spatial-D causal.

Statistically far and beyond mechanical causals, to say nothing of a galaxy's worth of separation from anything resembling enemy action causal. But you can't talk about fight club with that crowd without being shouted down with appeal to authority fallacies. Arrogance is made of such ways, wcyd.

[jice]

5 minutes ago, hindsight2020 said:

Indeed I have, as well.

The irony of course, when it comes to that insufferable "your entire livelihood...is just my motherhood" attitude,  is that the plurality of that demographic's personnel losses rests squarely at the hands of the very mOthErHooD they deride as scutwork. Miscontrol/Loss of control in IMC, spatial-D causal.

Statistically far and beyond mechanical causals, to say nothing of a galaxy's worth of separation from anything resembling enemy action causal. But you can't talk about fight club with that crowd without being shouted down with appeal to authority fallacies. Arrogance is made of such ways, wcyd.

Which demographic are you talking about?

[hindsight2020]

48 minutes ago, jice said:

Which demographic are you talking about?

The ones who resemble the remark, naturally.

[Skitzo]

Pretty sure he’s referring to the techniques of a deliberate offset for a known amount of time to build in final turn spacing. 
 
And I get the overall vibe about joking about instrument flying and just make it happen but I’ve lost a couple of friends to mistakes in instrument flying (which I’m sure a lot of you have as well) so I am a hammer when it comes to instrument procedures. 

That’s precisely what I was referring to. Of course you can substitute lateral cross track references to the runway you are actually circling to but that can also be a negative habit pattern if you need to go actual missed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LookieRookie]

5 hours ago, Danger41 said:

Pretty sure he’s referring to the techniques of a deliberate offset for a known amount of time to build in final turn spacing. 
 

And I get the overall vibe about joking about instrument flying and just make it happen but I’ve lost a couple of friends to mistakes in instrument flying (which I’m sure a lot of you have as well) so I am a hammer when it comes to instrument procedures. 

I understand that.

If lateral spacing references are known for your aircraft, that can be briefed and executed. 

 

[HuggyU2]

On 10/20/2023 at 3:31 AM, ClearedHot said:

Amen!  And you never forget your first time.

When I was a T-38 PIT IP, we did formation touch-and-go's. They were a blast. And a great way to get the reps to get really good at them fairly quickly. 

I tried a few times to get them approved at Beale and it's 300' wide runway. Never could. 

[Boomer6]

11 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

When I was a T-38 PIT IP, we did formation touch-and-go's. They were a blast. And a great way to get the reps to get really good at them fairly quickly. 

I tried a few times to get them approved at Beale and it's 300' wide runway. Never could. 

What was it like to fly a T-38 with less than 1000 hrs on the airframe?