T-38 circling approach

[Springer]

On 10/19/2023 at 9:53 PM, HuggyU2 said:

But bring back formation landings, you pussies! 

I agree...one of my last ones, me leading, wingman correctly stacking level.   #381 was shot down years later by a Navy F-14 idiot over the Med. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Springer

[BashiChuni]

Didn’t that navy f-14 guy make rank? F-4 is so sexy

[Danger41]

9 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

Didn’t that navy f-14 guy make rank? F-4 is so sexy

He was up for Admiral and it got blocked after the F-4 pilot (maybe WSO but one of them) complained to their congressman about it.

Craziest detail of that whole story was that the Tomcat pilots dad also shot down a friendly jet in Vietnam. Quite the family tradition.

[ClearedHot]

52 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

He was up for Admiral and it got blocked after the F-4 pilot (maybe WSO but one of them) complained to their congressman about it.

Up for Admiral as a JAG right, I don't think he ever flew again.

[HuggyU2]

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/video-when-a-us-navy-f-14-tomcat-shot-down-a-usaf-rf-4c-phantom-ii/amp/
 

Mike Ross went through T-38 PIT when I was an IP there. Good guy, good story. However, I heard his ejection injuries got worse with time. 

[Biff_T]

5 hours ago, Springer said:

I agree...one of my last ones, me leading, wingman correctly stacking level.   #381 was shot down years later by a Navy F-14 idiot over the Med. 

Beautiful!   

[Springer]

4 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/video-when-a-us-navy-f-14-tomcat-shot-down-a-usaf-rf-4c-phantom-ii/amp/
 

Mike Ross went through T-38 PIT when I was an IP there. Good guy, good story. However, I heard his ejection injuries got worse with time. 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/friendly-fire-victim-outraged-over-navy-officers-admiral-promotion/

Friendly-fire victim outraged over Navy officer's admiral promotion

• (CBS News) A U.S. Navy officer named Timothy Dorsey is up for promotion to admiral.

Whether he gets it may be determined by something he did a quarter century ago as an airman -- something so bizarre, even he can't fully explain it. But, it changed forever the life of a fellow airman, Mike Ross.
 

 

This photograph shows Mike Ross when he was a young Air Force pilot.
CBS NEWS
Ross was a young Air Force pilot flying reconnaissance missions in an F-4 Phantom jet. Grainy video taken by a Navy F-14 shows his plane during an exercise 25 years ago over the Mediterranean.

After taking a closer look, the F-14 pilot did the unimaginable. He shot Ross down.

"It took the tail off the airplane," Ross said.

He ejected at 630 miles per hour causing leg, shoulder and spine injuries, which have degenerated over the years requiring 32 surgeries. Ross said it "ruined his life," and he is still in physical pain.

"It basically made me 100 percent disabled by Air Force standards," Ross said.
 

Navy officer Lt. Junior Grade Timothy Dorsey
CBS NEWS
Insult was added to injury last year when the Navy nominated the pilot who shot him down -- then Lt. Junior Grade Dorsey -- for promotion to admiral.
Ross said his reaction was "almost visceral."

"I almost got sick," he said.

Ross claimed he had been under the impression that Dorsey had been let go.

An investigation determined Dorsey had received an order -- "red and free" -- which according to his sworn statement he thought "would never be used unless it was a no-kidder, a real-world threat situation." He interpreted "red and free" as permission to open fire, an inexplicable decision since everyone else in the exercise understood it to mean a simulated shoot down. Dorsey himself admitted "it was a bad decision."

He was never allowed to fly again, so he became an intelligence officer. The Navy kept promoting him despite the black mark on his record.

Dorsey declined to be interviewed, but Navy officials say he was selected for admiral because his performance as an intelligence officer made up for that one terrible mistake early in his career.

After the promotion became public, Ross received a letter from Dorsey saying, "I was unaware you suffered from any lingering injuries.... I am truly sorry for the incident and even sorrier for its impact on you."

Ross believes he got the letter 25 years after the incident because Dorsey was nominated for admiral.

Ross complained to members of Congress, who have the power to block Dorsey's promotion. He said he forgives him, however.

"I forgive him because if I don't forgive him I'll carry him with me for the rest of my life, and he's not worth that," he said.

Two pilots whose flight paths crossed so disastrously 25 years ago -- only this time it's Ross trying to shoot Dorsey down.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Springer

[RegularJoe]

Amazing how many times the Navy seems to leave us on our own only to later say, "sorry thought you were dead"

Aka - this incident / Chapman etc

[artvandelay43201]

I’d like to thank @Springer for taking the thread from circling approaches to F-4 friendly shoot downs. Impressive. 

[HeyEng]

2 hours ago, Springer said:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/friendly-fire-victim-outraged-over-navy-officers-admiral-promotion/

Friendly-fire victim outraged over Navy officer's admiral promotion

• (CBS News) A U.S. Navy officer named Timothy Dorsey is up for promotion to admiral.

Whether he gets it may be determined by something he did a quarter century ago as an airman -- something so bizarre, even he can't fully explain it. But, it changed forever the life of a fellow airman, Mike Ross.
 

 

This photograph shows Mike Ross when he was a young Air Force pilot.
CBS NEWS
Ross was a young Air Force pilot flying reconnaissance missions in an F-4 Phantom jet. Grainy video taken by a Navy F-14 shows his plane during an exercise 25 years ago over the Mediterranean.

After taking a closer look, the F-14 pilot did the unimaginable. He shot Ross down.

"It took the tail off the airplane," Ross said.

He ejected at 630 miles per hour causing leg, shoulder and spine injuries, which have degenerated over the years requiring 32 surgeries. Ross said it "ruined his life," and he is still in physical pain.

"It basically made me 100 percent disabled by Air Force standards," Ross said.
 

Navy officer Lt. Junior Grade Timothy Dorsey
CBS NEWS
Insult was added to injury last year when the Navy nominated the pilot who shot him down -- then Lt. Junior Grade Dorsey -- for promotion to admiral.
Ross said his reaction was "almost visceral."

"I almost got sick," he said.

Ross claimed he had been under the impression that Dorsey had been let go.

An investigation determined Dorsey had received an order -- "red and free" -- which according to his sworn statement he thought "would never be used unless it was a no-kidder, a real-world threat situation." He interpreted "red and free" as permission to open fire, an inexplicable decision since everyone else in the exercise understood it to mean a simulated shoot down. Dorsey himself admitted "it was a bad decision."

He was never allowed to fly again, so he became an intelligence officer. The Navy kept promoting him despite the black mark on his record.

Dorsey declined to be interviewed, but Navy officials say he was selected for admiral because his performance as an intelligence officer made up for that one terrible mistake early in his career.

After the promotion became public, Ross received a letter from Dorsey saying, "I was unaware you suffered from any lingering injuries.... I am truly sorry for the incident and even sorrier for its impact on you."

Ross believes he got the letter 25 years after the incident because Dorsey was nominated for admiral.

Ross complained to members of Congress, who have the power to block Dorsey's promotion. He said he forgives him, however.

"I forgive him because if I don't forgive him I'll carry him with me for the rest of my life, and he's not worth that," he said.

Two pilots whose flight paths crossed so disastrously 25 years ago -- only this time it's Ross trying to shoot Dorsey down.

On a completely unrelated matter, the Navy found the poor scapegrunt not guilty of setting the Bonhomme Richard on fire.
I don’t know what the rate of not guilty Court-martial convictions are in the Navy but I’m guessing they are pretty low so I’m guessing the case against him was pretty weak!

https://www.2news.com/news/seaman-recruit-found-not-guilty-for-destroying-navy-ship/video_f95d432f-bf23-5bf3-944b-4d5975ed92ec.html

[SurelySerious]

On a completely unrelated matter, the Navy found the poor scapegrunt not guilty of setting the Bonhomme Richard on fire.
I don’t know what the rate of not guilty Court-martial convictions are in the Navy but I’m guessing they are pretty low so I’m guessing the case against him was pretty weak!
https://www.2news.com/news/seaman-recruit-found-not-guilty-for-destroying-navy-ship/video_f95d432f-bf23-5bf3-944b-4d5975ed92ec.html

Interesting.

[hindsight2020]

 

7 hours ago, HeyEng said:

On a completely unrelated matter, the Navy found the poor scapegrunt not guilty of setting the Bonhomme Richard on fire.
I don’t know what the rate of not guilty Court-martial convictions are in the Navy but I’m guessing they are pretty low so I’m guessing the case against him was pretty weak!

https://www.2news.com/news/seaman-recruit-found-not-guilty-for-destroying-navy-ship/video_f95d432f-bf23-5bf3-944b-4d5975ed92ec.html

Fr.

Edited October 24, 2023 by hindsight2020

[Springer]

9 hours ago, artvandelay43201 said:

I’d like to thank @Springer for taking the thread from circling approaches to F-4 friendly shoot downs. Impressive. 

Wish I could take credit but it went to formation landings before I posted.  Besides, what's a drifting thread w/o a/c photos and real life stories?

 

[Vito]

  There is one aspect to some of  the maneuvers we flew at UPT in the past that some of you younger pilots may not be aware of. I am 100% confident that  the UPT of the past was not to train young men to be Air Force Pilots, but instead, it was a massive mind-game to weed out the weak. This isn’t meant to demean younger Pilots who went through a kinder/gentler UPT or a boomer’s rant about walking to school  in a snowstorm , uphill, both ways. It’s just a fact.

  Formation Landings, Circling approaches, and intense formation training in the T-38, as well as fix to fixes, insanely complex SID’s and approaches, were all designed to weed people out, as well as determine a students learning curve. Most of us had less than 100 hours total time and we were flying 38’s in fingertip formation and performing form landings. I still have my old T-37 In-Flight Guide. I wince at the approaches and SID’s we flew with 10 altitude  and airspeed restrictions in the first 10 miles. They made everything complex and difficult on purpose. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Vito

[Vito]

Continued, My T-38 IFG CBM. 1986

 Remember these were flown at 300 plus knots, with no autopilot, GPS, or VNAV.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Vito

[ClearedHot]

2 hours ago, Vito said:

  There is one aspect to some of  the maneuvers we flew at UPT in the past that some of you younger pilots may not be aware of. I am 100% confident that  the UPT of the past was not to train young men to be Air Force Pilots, but instead, it was a massive mind-game to weed out the weak. This isn’t meant to demean younger Pilots who went through a kinder/gentler UPT or a boomer’s rant about walking to school  in a snowstorm , uphill, both ways. It’s just a fact.

  Formation Landings, Circling approaches, and intense formation training in the T-38, as well as fix to fixes, insanely complex SID’s and approaches, were all designed to weed people out, as well as determine a students learning curve. Most of us had less than 100 hours total time and we were flying 38’s in fingertip formation and performing form landings. I still have my old T-37 In-Flight Guide. I wince at the approaches and SID’s we flew with 10 altitude  and airspeed restrictions in the first 10 miles. They made everything complex and difficult on purpose. 

I do wonder if for the sake of training more people faster we have given up some of the basic skills.  While I didn't train with Orville like Huggy did, I am an old school T-38 dude who did the pencil method, dialed up pie in the sky for my working area and hand flew SIDs using my brain not the autopilot.  Unfortunately my skills have atrophied thanks to automation, GPS and giant displays with a god's eye view of the world. 

A few weeks ago I was flying my airplane up north and was given a SID departing the DC SFRA.  I do all my mission planning on foreflight and my plane allows me to squirt (sts), the flight plan directly to the panel from foreflight, an immense time saver.  I cranked, got my clearance which was to climb via the SID to a point then expect radar vectors.  Foreflight took the plan and I thought all was well until I tried to shoot it to the panel.  The airplane did not like it and wanted a transition point from the published SID.  The clearance I had did not match and every time I tried to enter an exit point it messed up the flight plan (I was dropping into a private field outside the SFRA for a business meeting).  After "fighting" the system for a few minutes I finally said F it, I am a pilot and I will just hand fly the damn SID, which I did with no issues.   

All the new automation is great and likely prevents many mistakes.  My airplane can fly fully coupled approaches and has everything except auto throttles so I don't take the Clint Eastwood Gran Torino approach yelling get off my porch.  Instead, I use the automation but am putting more effort into keeping my basic skills sharp by hand flying approaches and such should the gonkulator fail or have a hiccup.   I am sure the airline guys have thoughts, isn't most of your flying done through the gonk?

[di1630]

I’ve had FTU students from traditional UPT, 2.0, the experimental UPT next and they all honestly end up about the same in the end.

I’d much prefer a UPT that weeds out the weak and poor attitudes than teach irrelevant form landings and pie in the sky.

Competition matters and performance under stress is needed to sort the chaff at UPT so tough flying should be a discriminator.

Case in point, 90% of weak swimmers are direct to fighter guard/reserve hires who didn’t compete. Had they, they’d be no chance in hell they would show up here.

The story I could/probably will eventually tell of the DEI unit hire that know they are an entitled and protected class. Cannot at the moment due to lawyers and stuff.

At old school UPT I doubt this student would have made it thru T-37 solo phase.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

[Majestik Møøse]

3 hours ago, Vito said:

Continued,

 Remember these were flown at 300 plus knots, with no autopilot, GPS, or VNAV.

A lot of us still fly like this, albeit with ForeFlight strapped to the leg.

[Danger41]

I know it isn’t practical, but I wish we could have UPT bases spread out all over the country so kids could learn to operate in the NAS instead of just learning all the base specific crap. That would also allow more comfort with VFR, interaction with various airspaces, etc. This would probably have an effect on later on events at NTTR or otherwise where you’re not used to working in that type of environment but who knows.

I’m kind of a guy that had feet in both worlds where we used to build pubs kits and all that and now have EFB with foreflight. I think GK has actually decreased because CTRL+F stuff is so easy now where we used to have to learn it. 

[DirkDiggler]

22 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

I know it isn’t practical, but I wish we could have UPT bases spread out all over the country so kids could learn to operate in the NAS instead of just learning all the base specific crap. That would also allow more comfort with VFR, interaction with various airspaces, etc. This would probably have an effect on later on events at NTTR or otherwise where you’re not used to working in that type of environment but who knows.

I’m kind of a guy that had feet in both worlds where we used to build pubs kits and all that and now have EFB with foreflight. I think GK has actually decreased because CTRL+F stuff is so easy now where we used to have to learn it. 

Agreed, a lot of guys don’t seem to actually learn their pubs anymore due to CTRL+F, an unfortunate side effect of the the pubs being on IPads.

[Vito]

I’m trying to download another approach plate, but the website says I maxed out my attachments.? 
how can I fix this? 

 

[Beaker16]

4 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

Agreed, a lot of guys don’t seem to actually learn their pubs anymore due to CTRL+F, an unfortunate side effect of the the pubs being on IPads.

I fly block 6.0 HC-130Js, which is not certified for terminal area RNAV operations. There was a recent stick up about flying RNAV 1 STARs, since while certified our V3 specifically approves "enroute" RNAV operations. CTRL+F saved me and other experienced hours of digging through 5+ years of FCIFs, crosschecking FARs, HHQ directives and TOs to submit a pubs change. Plus it makes testing a breeze.

Years ago I broke down learning pubs into three phases; raw knowledge, data and authority.

1. Know the black and white; TOs, checklist steps and restrictions, pubs and how does that translate to execution in the aircraft.

2. The data behind the checklist; how do all the supplements, -1-1, -1-4, FCIFs feed into themselves? Provides context to "why do we do this" questions. You can "know the back and white," but understanding and teaching it is another thing. 

3. Who has the authority to change the pubs; improve execution procedures, waiver authorities (who I should be asking for a waiver, and have the deviation properly backed up with knowledge data)

The age old "it was harder when I went through" discussion is valid imo. When folks don't get the trial by fire, perform or get out treatment though a rigorous syllabus emphasizing the basics and gain experience through hours, they end up at an ops unit inexperienced and below average hands. It takes a lot of effort by the line IPs help them progress to be at least SA neutral on the aircraft. I've personally seen two folks get reclassed out of an ops unit, and heard of others struggle to upgrade to AC.