AC-130J 105 Removal?

[Lawman]

The thing with a lot of the divestment of classic jets like the Mighty Eagle, A-10, AWACS, etc isn’t a capability replacement as much as the jets are just old AF and aren’t holding together. When you have to write into your v3 to not put over 5 G’s on your 9 G jet (ref C model) unless absolutely necessary to preserve fleet health, that ain’t good. 

The downside being we won’t big enough fodder to actually do those training sorties and honed the edge on the spear so we’ll.

Why won’t/can’t we fly Raptors for 40 years has nothing to do with some sort of obsolescence and everything to do with not having enough tails to solve the attrition of flight hours. There will never be an F-22C.

How good/proficient an Air Force would we have had we stopped building Eagles in 1980 and vipers in 1987. If we’d been trying to limp that fleet at 5G maximums how many less sorties would you generate and likewise people could you have taken from 1LT to patch wearer. We are quickly becoming the militaries we used to laugh at.


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[ClearedHot]

The thread has devolved into a broader discussion on divesting older platforms in the name of making difficult choices given current threats which may be true but is NOT the case with the potential 105MM removal.  It will actually COST money to take the 105MM off the gunship.  This is a punitive decision made by a cud eating lunatic and endorsed by his caustic clown-penis puppet.  It started as an exercise to harvest ops manpower for functions that have nothing to do with SOF core competencies.  

With regard to divesting other legacy platforms I certainly agree that in many cases it makes sense given the capabilities of 5th and 6th gen platforms.  We make fun of Fat Amy but the simple fact is in the air to air realm, if the Raptors and Fat Amy are playing it is an unfair fight, as it should be.  The problem is our single-minded focus on this one mission...yes we have a duty to kick down doors and project airpower and national policy, but we also have a sacred duty to protect those on the ground.  Luckily the benefit of our 5th and 6th gen capabilities extends to stopping an enemy air force but it is myopic to think it ends there.  I am sorry but a cloaked up Lightning with 181 rounds of 25MM and a couple GBUs does not replace an A-10.  When all is said and done we are spending a TRILLION dollars on Fat Amy, perhaps I am a dinosaur but I think we can part with a few $ to find away to provide CAS for future generations.

[brabus]

@ClearedHot I’m not as worried about the equipment as I am about the CAS knowledge/culture. But of course you need an MDS or two to keep those alive. If we needed to, we could strap rocket pods, whatever EO/IR sensor pod we wanted, bring tons of bombs to the fight, put some “CAS enhancing” capabilities in the software, etc. in an F-35. It’d be pretty damn good at it…but even in that hypothetical, where’s the CAS knowledge and personal capability of all the pilots who don’t even know how to spell CAS at that point? To me, that continued culture is what we critically need, more so than insert-old-MDS flying to 2050. As an example, shifting CAS to a primary on some ARC F-16 DOC statements could do the trick…it’s not the “perfect MDS,” but it would maintain CAS-focused pilots. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by brabus

[AC&W]

4 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

It started as an exercise to harvest ops manpower for functions that have nothing to do with SOF core competencies.

Genuinely curious as you have brought it up a few times. What was the motivation behind pulling ops manpower? 

[Lord Ratner]

8 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

When all is said and done we are spending a TRILLION dollars on Fat Amy, perhaps I am a dinosaur but I think we can part with a few $ to find away to provide CAS for future generations.

That's where I see much of the disagreement. You aren't replacing or backfilling a capability if the replacement isn't purchased in sufficient numbers to adequately accomplish the task. Getting rid of 500 Gen 4 fighters to buy 100 Gen 5 fighters (made up numbers) is not modernizing, evolving, or replacing. It's dumping one ability (supported by numbers) for another (supported by tech). 

 

This also seems to be why these divestiture plans always collapse. The Air Force comes up with some sort of bullshit math where we get rid of an old fleet worth a certain dollar amount, and apply those dollars to the new weapon system at a much lower quantity, because obviously new stuff is more expensive. But then in some congressional hearing where a congressman is fighting to keep a base or a weapon system in their district, the general is forced to admit that the new weapon system, in the quantity planned, will not adequately replace the capabilities of the old weapon system at much higher quantities. Then surprise surprise, we don't get rid of the old weapon system, which means we have even less money going forward for the new one.

 

It's a vicious cycle of stupidity and disingenuous arguments, and it's so short-sighted that the obvious result in the long run is an overall weaker military.

[Clark Griswold]

3 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

That's where I see much of the disagreement. You aren't replacing or backfilling a capability if the replacement isn't purchased in sufficient numbers to adequately accomplish the task. Getting rid of 500 Gen 4 fighters to buy 100 Gen 5 fighters (made up numbers) is not modernizing, evolving, or replacing. It's dumping one ability (supported by numbers) for another (supported by tech). 

This also seems to be why these divestiture plans always collapse. The Air Force comes up with some sort of bullshit math where we get rid of an old fleet worth a certain dollar amount, and apply those dollars to the new weapon system at a much lower quantity, because obviously new stuff is more expensive. But then in some congressional hearing where a congressman is fighting to keep a base or a weapon system in their district, the general is forced to admit that the new weapon system, in the quantity planned, will not adequately replace the capabilities of the old weapon system at much higher quantities. Then surprise surprise, we don't get rid of the old weapon system, which means we have even less money going forward for the new one.

It's a vicious cycle of stupidity and disingenuous arguments, and it's so short-sighted that the obvious result in the long run is an overall weaker military.

They don't think that it matters, we're victims in a way of our own success.  Gulf War 1, the Balkans, GWOT, Libya, Syria, etc... they see examples of our current family of systems coming home with wins and just think that no matter what it will all work out in the end so don't worry about it, keep the jobs, base, logistics and the 70 year old iron flying, we'll always win and buy a few of the now 6.9 billion a tail new platform...

 

[BashiChuni]

successes? i don't see a whole lot of winning there...

[Clark Griswold]

successes? i don't see a whole lot of winning there...

Successful air operations to be more specific


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[Clark Griswold]

Not 105mm news exactly but the new model is getting some playing time

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ac-130-ghostrider-gunship-strikes-iranian-backed-militia-in-iraq


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[uhhello]

Is the transponder just a 'don't fuck with stuff because we're up here' deal?

[Danger41]

17 minutes ago, uhhello said:

Is the transponder just a 'don't fuck with stuff because we're up here' deal?

No. That’s a “we forgot to turn this off” type of thing.

[Biff_T]

20 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

No. That’s a “we forgot to turn this off” type of thing.

EMCON 4.... almost 

[Lawman]

No. That’s a “we forgot to turn this off” type of thing.

Mission approval authority: “Leave it on… I want these bastards to know what and who they are F’ing with!”


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[ClearedHot]

3 hours ago, uhhello said:

Is the transponder just a 'don't fuck with stuff because we're up here' deal?

A tour of the old neighborhoods and clearly a message.

[Biff_T]

How many more times can that shit hole be blown up?   JFC, we can't stop hanging out over there.  Must be the "slappies".  

Left hand turns of death - Spooky

[Lord Ratner]

3 hours ago, Biff_T said:

How many more times can that shit hole be blown up?   JFC, we can't stop hanging out over there.  Must be the "slappies".  

Left hand turns of death - Spooky

[fire4effect]

 

EFF Iraq. Very little that happens there will get at the root of the problem. Three words. Conventional Prompt Strike.....or whatever they call it right here. Better yet on the headquarters of the Morality Police and or the Quds Force. That sends a message I'm sure they'll get 5 X 5

 

[arg]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:46 AM, Lawman said:

Mission approval authority: “Leave it on… I want these bastards to know what and who they are F’ing with!”


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I get the send a message thing but I would like it to be more of a surprise. Like, they don't know where it's coming from. They just know if they do something they will get the rain(cheesy movie). Wonder what weapon they used in this attack. I remember back in the day(even before CHs time) when nobody outside of the small community knew what a gunship was. 

[fire4effect]

15 hours ago, arg said:

I get the send a message thing but I would like it to be more of a surprise. Like, they don't know where it's coming from. They just know if they do something they will get the rain(cheesy movie). Wonder what weapon they used in this attack. I remember back in the day(even before CHs time) when nobody outside of the small community knew what a gunship was. 

THIS! After what happened in Israel/Gaza the gloves are off. Iran wants to be coy about it but their fingerprints are all over more that we can let slide. Ukraine/Gaza/Iraq to varying degrees. I do know rank and file Iranians, especially young ones have no love loss for the regime so judicious targeting is paramount. 

However, SH!T needs to blow up in their backyard that's important and in way we can play coy even though everyone knows where it came from.

On another note, I'm sure Israel has a nice Rolodex of important things worth targeting. 

Truth in advertising: I admit this fight is personal to me because Quds proxies tried more than once and came a little too close to killing me in Iraq.

Edited November 24, 2023 by fire4effect
clarity?

[ClearedHot]

19 hours ago, arg said:

I get the send a message thing but I would like it to be more of a surprise. Like, they don't know where it's coming from. They just know if they do something they will get the rain(cheesy movie). Wonder what weapon they used in this attack. I remember back in the day(even before CHs time) when nobody outside of the small community knew what a gunship was. 

As I understand it this was not a pre-planned strike. 

The AC-130 was patrolling and noticed the launch, they followed the smoke trail back and conducted a self-defense strike.

[ClearedHot]

On 11/21/2023 at 11:42 AM, AC&W said:

Genuinely curious as you have brought it up a few times. What was the motivation behind pulling ops manpower? 

Slife...He has envisioned a special ops support squadron and harvested manpower from the ops squadrons to do it.  When it came time for the AC-130 folks to pony up more folks the gunner union pushed back and said they needed the extra body to run the 105...Slife HATES the gunship and used that issue to remove the 105 and harvest the manpower. 

[arg]

40 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

As I understand it this was not a pre-planned strike. 

The AC-130 was patrolling and noticed the launch, they followed the smoke trail back and conducted a self-defense strike.

Cool, sounds like what I was talking about. Hopefully there was a witness that can tell all of his buddies what happened.

[ClearedHot]

[M2]

Looks like the high-tech long-distance hotdog cooker is no longer going on the Ghostrider!

The Air Force's Dream of Mounting a Laser Weapon on an AC-130J Ghostrider Gunship Is Dead | Military.com

[ClearedHot]

18 minutes ago, M2 said:

Looks like the high-tech long-distance hotdog cooker is no longer going on the Ghostrider!

The Air Force's Dream of Mounting a Laser Weapon on an AC-130J Ghostrider Gunship Is Dead | Military.com

Heithold retired and his pet project is finally dead.