New 2.5 AF UPT-H

[alwyn2d]

Anyone have any information on the new AF helicopter only training program?  Are they scheduled to use the Bell 505 in replacing the TH-1H now being used? How long is the new course? Is the obligation still 10yrs after winging? Happy Holidays all.

[McJay Pilot]

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/training-simulation/cae-wins-us-air-force-helicopter-introductory-training-contract/
 

Looks like a definite maybe on the Bell 505? Haven’t heard the RW folks here in ABQ talk about it much though.

[Props]

17 hours ago, McJay Pilot said:

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/training-simulation/cae-wins-us-air-force-helicopter-introductory-training-contract/
 

Looks like a definite maybe on the Bell 505? Haven’t heard the RW folks here in ABQ talk about it much though.

I believe this is just for the IFT-R program. So like how peeps used to go to IFS (turned IFT) before UPT to fly the DA-20. This contract is for a helicopter IFT that uses bell 505s. 
 

the last I saw about this small companies had the contract and had their first IFT grads last year. The company I saw was called Brenner aviation down in Texas. 
 

it’s my understanding that the UPT next for helicopters only is currently running, but they still use the Huey and it’s still at Rucker 

[kaputt]

First class just started. It's being run by CAE in Dothan, AL, just down the road from Rucker/Novosel. Same facility the Army does their fixed wing training at. 

A few years ago the Air Force put out a bunch of RFI's for various contractor run programs to increase UPT production. The IFT-R idea was one of them, along with GOCO T-6's and I think one other contractor run program, maybe to replace T-1s? I can't remember. 

Looks like the IFT-R idea won out. Word I've heard on the street is that this had less to do with improving rotor wing training and instead was seen as an easy-ish way to open up a handful of T-6 slots per class. I guess they were finding most kids who ended up going helo's in the Air Force wanted them, so the powers that be decided pushing them down that street sooner and opening more fixed wing training slots is the way to go. I'd be interested to hear from anyone involved in selection how they're picking studs to go to this program before they've even flown a DA-20. 

I'll leave it to rotor wing dudes to discuss whether they think this will be better for the final product. I'm sure more time in a helicopter is better than not. I'm guessing some studs later in life may miss the opportunity to get at least an ASEL commercial through mil comp if they decide they want to push buttons in the flight levels vs buzz tree tops.

[raimius]

IMO, long term it's bad.  Helicopters are already widely misunderstood in the AF. Now keeping them in entirely separate training pipelines from fixed wing is only going to make it worse.  Also limits cross flow opportunities.  

Can you make a quality helicopter-only pilot?  Sure.  That's not the hard part.  Getting students with way less flight training would require a pretty big syllabus rewrite, but it's not impossible.

Edited December 3, 2023 by raimius

[Biff_T]

There was nothing wrong with the helicopter pilots starting in fixed wing and then moving to helos.  It helps build airmanship.  It is easier to learn to fly a fixed wing then transfer to helos than it is just to start off in a jet ranger. Learning to hover takes a few extra brain bites.  It's hard to talk to ground and tower when you can barely taxi your aircraft without the fear of dieing.  And like @raimius said, 

16 hours ago, raimius said:

Helicopters are already widely misunderstood in the AF. Now keeping them in entirely separate training pipelines from fixed wing is only going to make it worse.  Also limits cross flow opportunities.  

This. 

Besides, flying upside down builds confidence.  

 

[Bigred]

2 hours ago, Biff_T said:

There was nothing wrong with the helicopter pilots starting in fixed wing and then moving to helos.  It helps build airmanship.  It is easier to learn to fly a fixed wing then transfer to helos than it is just to start off in a jet ranger. Learning to hover takes a few extra brain bites.  It's hard to talk to ground and tower when you can barely taxi your aircraft without the fear of dieing.  And like @raimius said, 

This. 

Besides, flying upside down builds confidence.  

 

I couldn’t imagine trying to talk for the first time while also learning to hover. Talk about the monkey fucking the football bat. 

[HeloDude]

3 minutes ago, Bigred said:

I couldn’t imagine trying to talk for the first time while also learning to hover. Talk about the monkey fucking the football bat. 

Ummm…the Army does it all the time.  Also, going back to straight to rotor wing only training for Air Force helo pilots is how it was always done before the mid/early 90s.

[Biff_T]

1 hour ago, HeloDude said:

Ummm…the Army does it all the time.  Also, going back to straight to rotor wing only training for Air Force helo pilots is how it was always done before the mid/early 90s.

The Army also does PT in formation before they show for a training day. Doesn't make it better.  

I know that the Army makes good pilots but there was nothing wrong with the status quo in the AF.  Having a little bit of fix wing stink keeps us connected to our fixed winged bros.  

I repspect the 160th.  They are the best at rotary wing flying.  But I think the AF produces superior freshly winged pilots.  Learning to fly fixed wing prior to helos helps with that.  Especially, something like the T-6.   

[HeloDude]

5 minutes ago, Biff_T said:

The Army also does PT in formation before they show for a training day. Doesn't make it better.  

I know that the Army makes good pilots but there was nothing wrong with the status quo in the AF.  Having a little bit of fix wing stink keeps us connected to our fixed winged bros.  

I repspect the 160th.  They are the best at rotary wing flying.  But I think the AF produces superior freshly winged pilots.  Learning to fly fixed wing prior to helos helps with that.  Especially, something like the T-6.   

The AF needs more fixed wing guys…not more helo pilots that go through T-6 training.

[Biff_T]

1 hour ago, HeloDude said:

The AF needs more fixed wing guys…not more helo pilots that go through T-6 training.

True

[raimius]

1 hour ago, HeloDude said:

The AF needs more fixed wing guys…not more helo pilots that go through T-6 training.

...and that is the reason helo-only is a thing again.  It's also the reason we are giving LTs wings with 115hrs total time.  Not quality, quantity.

[HeloDude]

4 minutes ago, raimius said:

...and that is the reason helo-only is a thing again.  It's also the reason we are giving LTs wings with 115hrs total time.  Not quality, quantity.

Oh I hear you man.  I don’t agree with many of the changes over the last few years wrt to UPT, but until the bobs get serious about retention, it’s all about production…and they’re not even doing a good job on that piece. 

[Bigred]

5 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Ummm…the Army does it all the time.  Also, going back to straight to rotor wing only training for Air Force helo pilots is how it was always done before the mid/early 90s.

I never said it was good or bad, I just said I couldn’t imagine trying to learn to hover while also learning to talk on the radios. Guess you’re a better pilot than me. 

[HeloDude]

8 minutes ago, Bigred said:

I never said it was good or bad, I just said I couldn’t imagine trying to learn to hover while also learning to talk on the radios. Guess you’re a better pilot than me. 

If that’s the case, then every Army pilot is better than you as well, which I seriously doubt.  Hovering is challenging, but so is flying a T-37 or T-6 without much flying experience.  Besides, when you’re learning to hover, you’re not making much/if any radio calls.  You’re just hovering over a certain area and unless you want to go somewhere else there’s not much to say.  Kind of like flying in a MOA until you’re ready to leave.

[Bigred]

37 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

If that’s the case, then every Army pilot is better than you as well, which I seriously doubt.  Hovering is challenging, but so is flying a T-37 or T-6 without much flying experience.  Besides, when you’re learning to hover, you’re not making much/if any radio calls.  You’re just hovering over a certain area and unless you want to go somewhere else there’s not much to say.  Kind of like flying in a MOA until you’re ready to leave.

My onwing at Whiting made me make ‘radio calls’ (internal ICS) at every corner of the hover box from my first flight in the helo. He also had me calling every bit of traffic in the pattern at Pace/Spencer as I maneuvered along the hover box. Maybe that wasn’t normal but it freaking sucked, and to do that brand new would’ve been damn near impossible.  

Edited December 4, 2023 by Bigred

[Swizzle]

4 hours ago, raimius said:

...and that is the reason helo-only is a thing again.  It's also the reason we are giving LTs wings with 115hrs total time.  Not quality, quantity.

Soon to be like half that I hear. But the redemption is more total AR/VR hours than flight hours...🤨🤔 

On that, will 781s be updated enabling to log AR/VR time? They THAT serious? Will playing Starfox count? Maybe Halo? Okay, in all seriousness...MS Flight Sim?

What about UPT vs UPT-H flight hour comparison?? Maybe sorties/repetitions?

[HeloDude]

2 hours ago, Bigred said:

My onwing at Whiting made me make ‘radio calls’ (internal ICS) at every corner of the hover box from my first flight in the helo. He also had me calling every bit of traffic in the pattern at Pace/Spencer as I maneuvered along the hover box. Maybe that wasn’t normal but it freaking sucked, and to do that brand new would’ve been damn near impossible.  

Nice man—I just don’t recall the old Vietnam era IPs making us do that at Rucker or the stage fields.

[Chida]

But can you get ATIS while hovering? That’s the tru test…

[Biff_T]

On 12/4/2023 at 11:29 AM, Chida said:

But can you get ATIS while hovering? That’s the tru test…

I can do it but only while flying single pilot.  Lol. 

On 12/3/2023 at 9:26 PM, HeloDude said:

Nice man—I just don’t recall the old Vietnam era IPs making us do that at Rucker or the stage fields.

They didn't or I would have crashed on day one.  I could barely pickup without going into dynamic rollover but I could fly the shit out of it straight and level lol.   "What do you mean I have to increase power to land?"  - Lt Biff

Edit: The way I look at fixed wing prior to UPT H is similar to the Marines and the everyone is a grunt first.  Every USAF pilot should have a little fixed wing experience.  

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Biff_T
Afterthought