On the struggle bus at UPT, heading for a CR

[admdelta]

Hopefully this is the right section of the forum for this. I'm at UPT right now and I'll just say things have been incredibly rough lately. I was doing pretty alright for the first few rides, but after that the cracks started to emerge in my GK and I found myself falling behind. A hook or two later I ended up on CAP and whipped myself into shape. I started going to the cognitive specialists every other day to assess and fix my study habits and work on in-flight stress management, I started studying harder and better, simming a lot more on my own time, chair flying better and more, having regular GK sessions with my IPs etc. Things were starting to really look up until my end of block flight to clear me for solo. 

During that flight I made the silly decision to get distracted by my GPS and lost SA at a really stupid time. The rest of the flight had some errors, but was decent, however that was an instant hook and I knew it right away. Despite the outcome of the flight over all, the flight commander (my IP for the flight) actually mentioned on the gradesheet how much of an improvement he'd seen since putting me on CAP. Nonetheless, this triggered an 88.

The 88 ride was also fairly decent for the most part. There were some issues that would have made for debrief items with a fair if it weren't for the fact that suddenly I forgot how to land. I couldn't get them set up and kept going around, and a couple the IP had to go around for me because I judged poorly that I could land them. I had a very nice landing at the end of the flight and hoped it would save me, but it did not. Ride hooked, onto the 89.

My 89 flight with the commander was probably my worst since my dollar ride. A week of accumulated stress and anxiety finally took its toll and I simply could not perform. I was screwing things up that I've never had issues with before and it was just an overall disaster.

I'm now staring down a CR next week or possibly after the winter break and I'm absolutely gutted. I worked my butt off through 5 years of rejection, battling age limits, and a whole load of other obstacles to get to this point and watching it all slip away because of a series of small but ultimately stupid mistakes spread out over multiple rides is more painful than I can describe, especially after the effort I've put in lately to get my ass back in shape over the last 4 weeks. I was dealt a few unlucky hands here as well but I recognize that ultimately I'm to blame. The best day of my life was when I got the call saying I was going to be a pilot. My worst day was yesterday. 

Sorry for the long sad post, ultimately I guess I just want to vent a bit but also ask for advice. Has anyone been in this situation and survived the CR, or seen someone else do it? Is there anything I can do to help my odds? I know my chances are incredibly slim this early in the syllabus and with a less than stellar gradebook, but I'm willing to do anything and throw whatever hail Mary necessary to keep this dream alive. I gave up my home, a 7 year long career, love, and much more to get to where I am today. If I lose this too, how do I stay positive in the face of what feels like a massive failure and a waste of my potential and half a decade of work? 

Edited December 14, 2023 by admdelta

[Danger41]

So first thing I’ll say is great on you for being honest with yourself that alot of your problems seem to stem from poor preparation and/or study habits. More on that later…

 

For the near rocks of getting through this ride, it should be the relatively simple pre-solo stuff that requires very little improvisation and athleticism to fly well. Everything you do should be under the “control and performance” concept where you set a known pitch and power setting and get a known result. If you’re not getting exactly what you’d expect from that setting, then make small corrections from that instead of just guessing the correction. 
 

This definitely applies in the pattern and will help control any wild deviations. Whenever you pull closed, pull the same amount nose up, the same bank angle, the same pull to displace you appropriately every time. When you get to that known spot, you make adjustments based on wind for when/where to perch etc. Also, by doing that very rote maneuvering, it will gain you a few seconds of SA to actually assess and get you caught back up to the airplane. 
 

A trick I learned back in the day from the F-15 community was “left hand, right hand, sight picture, feel”. It applies to everything and I personally like it because it breaks things down very cleanly and will set you up for success. Try drawing out the pattern or wherever you feel jammed up and apply that mnemonic. Even your GPS thing, look back at that scenario and think what you could’ve done with left hand (power setting), right hand (probably bank back towards the center of the MOA), sight picture (level turn away from a border now eyes go to GPS to push buttons in a sequence),  fee (1G unacclerated turn). Once you’re done setting up, what’s next on your lineup card? Same deal to set up for TP stalls or whatever. 
 

Lots of words there but the last thing I’ll tell you is that worrying about all your sacrifice and hard work won’t do shit to help you on this ride. “Fighting in the air is not a sport. It is scientific murder” said Eddie Rickenbacker. The airplane couldn’t care less about your personal life. Compartmentalization is massive in this business and learn to leave all that behind you and focus on your left hand, right hand, sight picture, feel. Good luck!

 

[CaptainMorgan]

A CR this early is probably not going to end with reinstatement. However, the best thing you can do is have a positive attitude during your conversations with leadership. I saw a CR where the Wing/CC was primed to reinstate until he met with the student who conveyed a less than enthusiastic desire to stay in training.


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[viperdriver1313]

With what he said above,

Not going to end well and I would be open to other things other than flying.

My pilot training roommate hooked is 89 and is now an intel officer and loving life. 

A student of mine in the Viper FTU hooked out and was so relieved when it happened with how much stress it involved for him. My guess is you will also 

a)be able to sleep again at night 

b) realize that, although flying is great, it doesn’t define you

c) realize you can still fly, just probably not as an Air Force pilot 

d) I’m an Air Force pilot and are already looking forward to airline pastures. Grass is always greener 

e)be fine in life; you are humble and admitted your mistakes

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by viperdriver1313

[admdelta]

1 hour ago, Danger41 said:

So first thing I’ll say is great on you for being honest with yourself that alot of your problems seem to stem from poor preparation and/or study habits. More on that later…

 

For the near rocks of getting through this ride, it should be the relatively simple pre-solo stuff that requires very little improvisation and athleticism to fly well. Everything you do should be under the “control and performance” concept where you set a known pitch and power setting and get a known result. If you’re not getting exactly what you’d expect from that setting, then make small corrections from that instead of just guessing the correction. 
 

This definitely applies in the pattern and will help control any wild deviations. Whenever you pull closed, pull the same amount nose up, the same bank angle, the same pull to displace you appropriately every time. When you get to that known spot, you make adjustments based on wind for when/where to perch etc. Also, by doing that very rote maneuvering, it will gain you a few seconds of SA to actually assess and get you caught back up to the airplane. 
 

A truck I learned back in the day from the F-15 community was “left hand, right hand, sight picture, feel”. It applies to everything and I personally like it because it breaks things down very cleanly and will set you up for success. Try drawing out the pattern or wherever you feel jammed up and apply that mnemonic. Even your GPS thing, look back at that scenario and think what you could’ve done with left hand (power setting), right hand (probably bank back towards the center of the MOA), sight picture (level turn away from a border now eyes go to GPS to push buttons in a sequence),  fee (1G unacclerated turn). Once you’re done setting up, what’s next on your lineup card? Same deal to set up for TP stalls or whatever. 
 

Lots of words there but the last thing I’ll tell you is that worrying about all your sacrifice and hard work won’t do shit to help you on this ride. “Fighting in the air is not a sport. It is scientific murder” said Eddie Rickenbacker. The airplane couldn’t care less about your personal life. Compartmentalization is massive in this business and learn to leave all that behind you and focus on your left hand, right hand, sight picture, feel. Good luck!

 

I should have written my original post more clearly (just edited it) but I already had the 89. It was unusually bad and I hooked the absolute hell out of it. 

That said, if I pull out a miracle and survive the CR I'll need to fly another one and I'm definitely taking this advice. Thanks for taking the time to lay that all out.

[Splash95]

I feel your pain man. I also battled for years to get to UPT (to include ETP for age/rank/TAFSC), had periodic struggles while there, but got through Trans, Nav, Form and Mission phase. Then on graduation week, with my parents, retired O-6 uncle and family friends already in town, I hooked the check and the 89, didn't get reinstated and was done. A couple of years later, I still don't truly understand it and I know I never will, so I've found peace through consciously refusing further futile attempts.

My advice to you: Whatever your support system is (God, family, friends, girlfriend, etc), lean on it. I got essentially no support from within the USAF, either locally at the UPT base or from my ANG home unit, but my parents and other family members let me know that they loved me regardless, and that helped. I've since transferred to a different unit to do a different job. I may not be "loving life" professionally a la viperdriver's roommate, but I can sleep at night because I know I busted my ass 6 and sometimes 7 days a week for a year and at every juncture I made the best decision I could with the information I had.

It seems you have also given it your best shot. I won't BS you: if you're male and caucasian, your time as a student pilot is finished. If not, you may have a shot, but either way it's time to think about, first, how best to navigate the likely upcoming stages of grief, and second, what you'll seek to do for the rest of your career. I commend your willingness to share your difficulties with what can often seem a harsh and not empathetic forum, and I certainly wish you the best moving forward. Last, if it would help you any to have a conversation with someone who has traveled this path, feel free to shoot me a DM.

[raimius]

So, the bad news--pre-solo CR probably has a low chance of a reinstate, unless something was very strange in your scheduling/someone missed teaching you something important.

Good news--if you show a good attitude and work hard, your leadership should help you get whatever next AFSC you are going for.  You should have a non-flying backup plan, and now is the time, most likely.  Take the positive things you learned this far, the skills you improved recently, and use those to help on your next goal.

[Blue]

14 hours ago, admdelta said:

Things were starting to really look up until my end of block flight to clear me for solo. 

During that flight I made the silly decision to get distracted by my GPS and lost SA at a really stupid time. The rest of the flight had some errors, but was decent, however that was an instant hook and I knew it right away. Despite the outcome of the flight over all, the flight commander (my IP for the flight) actually mentioned on the gradesheet how much of an improvement he'd seen since putting me on CAP. Nonetheless, this triggered an 88.

The 88 ride was also fairly decent for the most part. There were some issues that would have made for debrief items with a fair if it weren't for the fact that suddenly I forgot how to land. I couldn't get them set up and kept going around, and a couple the IP had to go around for me because I judged poorly that I could land them. I had a very nice landing at the end of the flight and hoped it would save me, but it did not. Ride hooked, onto the 89.

My 89 flight with the commander was probably my worst since my dollar ride. A week of accumulated stress and anxiety finally took its toll and I simply could not perform. I was screwing things up that I've never had issues with before and it was just an overall disaster.

I'm now staring down a CR next week or possibly after the winter break and I'm absolutely gutted. I worked my butt off through 5 years of rejection, battling age limits, and a whole load of other obstacles to get to this point and watching it all slip away because of a series of small but ultimately stupid mistakes spread out over multiple rides is more painful than I can describe, especially after the effort I've put in lately to get my ass back in shape over the last 4 weeks. I was dealt a few unlucky hands here as well but I recognize that ultimately I'm to blame. The best day of my life was when I got the call saying I was going to be a pilot. My worst day was yesterday. 

Sorry for the long sad post, ultimately I guess I just want to vent a bit but also ask for advice. Has anyone been in this situation and survived the CR, or seen someone else do it? Is there anything I can do to help my odds? I know my chances are incredibly slim this early in the syllabus and with a less than stellar gradebook, but I'm willing to do anything and throw whatever hail Mary necessary to keep this dream alive. I gave up my home, a 7 year long career, love, and much more to get to where I am today. If I lose this too, how do I stay positive in the face of what feels like a massive failure and a waste of my potential and half a decade of work? 

What's the saying?  You're always 3 flights away from washing out?  Hook a check ride, 88 ride, 89 ride, and you're done?

Some opinions, all worth what you pay for them.

The anxiety and stress is real, and it's something you have to overcome.  Pilot training is an interesting animal, and people arrive there from different paths. 

• One one extreme, you have people who arrive at UPT somewhat ambivalent about being a pilot.  They're fresh out of ROTC from Random State School, and flying sounded like "something cool to do."
• Others have made pilot training a lifelong goal, and fought tooth and nail at every step of the way just to get there.  Waivers for whatever, many failed applications via various avenues (active duty, guard, etc).

People fall somewhere in between these extremes, but it sounds like you're much closer to the latter bucket.  All that work and pain to get to UPT is a double-edged sword though.  Clearly you want it and are ambitious, but it also means that you're putting all of that weight on you every time you go fly.  It's a lot of pressure, pressure that the student fresh out of school may not have to deal with.  I know the solution is to "brush aside all of the anxiety," etc, but that's obviously much easier said than done.  I don't know the solution here, but the first step is to recognize the source of the anxiety.

You also kind of have to come to terms with the fact you gave it your best shot, and let the chips fall where they may.  Some things are meant to be, others aren't.  Maybe you pass this hurdle, graduate UPT, and get hit by a bus.  Or some random medical thing pops up.  Some might say "God's plan" and all that, but I think it's more accurate to say "it's just life."  Some times things work out the way you want, sometimes they don't.

If a commander recommends reinstatement, I believe they can also provide some limited additional rides as well.  As in, you're back in, and you get 2-3 additional rides to get to where you need to be.  Not sure how the holidays work, I believe there is some history of all students getting an additional ride after coming back from break, or something to that effect?

Either way, give the CR your best shot.  Don't know how your wing does it, but in the past I've seen the CC ask that you write a memo or something that outlines your case.  Lay your cards out there, and see where it goes.  Hopefully your IPs give you some guidance in that regard.

Hope for the best, and see where it goes.  If you don't get the outcome you want, go out and do something else with your life with the knowledge you took the shot and it didn't work out.  Let that part of your life be something to grow off of, not something to hang onto in bitterness.

Related, this thread got me thinking about all the folks I've known who didn't complete pilot training.  I'm not very well traveled or well connected by any means, but this is just after bouncing around the Air Force and civilian service for a couple decades.  I reflect on this list, and think about the people who held onto their bitterness for a long time, and others who just kinda moved on.  You get to choose how you let it effect you (like many things in life).

• A Lt who was doing well through IFF, had to punch out of a T-38 and got bad back injuries.  Can't remember if he was going to be permanently DQ'd from flying, or medically retired from the service.  It was bad.  Fought tooth and nail to be allowed back in, and was allowed to proceed as a non-ejection seat pilot.
• One ROTC instructor (Maj) who was washed out of pilot training and had a sob story about it.  Was on a T-37 solo flight, and did intentional stalls on his own.  Didn't think it was a problem to do stalls solo, his IPs disagreed.  Was reclassed into a non-rated field.  Went through some long process to "get his record changed," or something to that effect, with no success.  Probably all for the good, because the guy was kind of an idiot.
• Another ROTC instructor (Maj) who washed out and was told he had three choices on his next career field: Nav, Nav, and Nav.  Seemed to go on to do good things, but was a bit cringe-y in how he seemed to still have not come to terms with it.
• One co-worker who washed out, but still had a T-37 hanging from his office ceiling.  He seemed to look back on his time fondly.
• Another co-worker who SIE'd early on after putting "pilot" on his ROTC dream sheet as a lark, more or less.
• One O-6 Air Base Wing CC who was respected, well liked, and seemed to be good at his job.  At his retirement ceremony when he talked about his career, he briefly mentioned that he "Started his career with six months in pilot training.  Unfortunately, pilot training is a 12 month course."  He smiled and moved on with his speech.

Along with all the guys I knew who fought for the chance to go, got close, but never got there for one reason or another:

• One guy who came in to the Air Force non-rated, and applied for board after board, and didn't get anywhere.  He was crushed at not being able to fly, and even more crushed at being stuck in a support role.
• One old timer who was all lined up to go to pilot training with a waiver for being slightly over the age limit.  Vietnam drawdown happens, waiver rescinded, and he was out of luck.

Anyway, good luck OP.  Thanks for providing the opportunity for an old man to neglect his day job and reflect a bit.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Blue

[admdelta]

9 hours ago, Blue said:

People fall somewhere in between these extremes, but it sounds like you're much closer to the latter bucket.  All that work and pain to get to UPT is a double-edged sword though.  Clearly you want it and are ambitious, but it also means that you're putting all of that weight on you every time you go fly.  It's a lot of pressure, pressure that the student fresh out of school may not have to deal with.  I know the solution is to "brush aside all of the anxiety," etc, but that's obviously much easier said than done.  I don't know the solution here, but the first step is to recognize the source of the anxiety.

Thank you for saying this because this is 100% how I've felt every time but have never been able to quite put my finger on it. I'm definitely mentioning this in my letter, and if I'm lucky enough to be kept around, finding a way to fix ti.

 

9 hours ago, Blue said:

One O-6 Air Base Wing CC who was respected, well liked, and seemed to be good at his job.  At his retirement ceremony when he talked about his career, he briefly mentioned that he "Started his career with six months in pilot training.  Unfortunately, pilot training is a 12 month course."  He smiled and moved on with his speech.

Love this story, and really appreciate your comment. 

[fire4effect]

OP,

Quick story about a family friend. Went to the Air Force Academy in the 90s. Was all set up with a pilot slot to find out he had a slight blue/green color deficiency. No flying with the Air Force unfortunately. He finished and did I believe 5 years as an Air Force engineer.  It may have been less as this was during the Clinton drawdown years and they were letting people go left and right. Honestly during drawdowns they were probably over the top strict on physical requirements so that may have played a role though that would be just a guess on my part. After his service he got his civilian ratings, and he is now well into a multi decade career flying heavies for UPS. Nowadays the VA Flight bennies are a lot better so there is that. You're still young so it's great you're reaching out for mentorship that frankly wasn't available in years past. Take these learning experiences about yourself and use them as you go forward in life and aviation. I have a few stories related to my own career, but we'd need a lot of time over beers.

Good Luck!

[admdelta]

Tomorrow’s the day everyone. I managed to write a pretty killer show cause letter acknowledging my mistakes and outlying my plans to get back on track, and I got a fair few letters from others as well. Hopefully it all works out. Thanks for all your insights, advice, and encouraging words. 

[Springer]

admdelta, it kills me to hear this.  Went through this with my UPT roommate and always wondered if I could have done more to help.  Turns out he should have been wearing glasses but by the time it was discovered it was too late.

Becomes an F-4 WSO.  AF sends him to law school.  Eventually becomes an AF judge.  Works three VERY high vis AF cases including the AWAC helo shootdown and the Khobar Towers bombing.  Retired a couple years ago as a Federal Judge.

Good luck.

[HossHarris]

Good luck!

[admdelta]

Thanks again guys. Unfortunately the CR did not go the way I had hoped. This is definitely not how I had envisioned this journey ending when I started it 6 or 7 years ago, and it hurts about as much as you would expect, but I’m gonna try and still be the best officer I can be wherever I end up.

[StrikeOut312]

12 minutes ago, admdelta said:

I’m gonna try and still be the best officer I can be wherever I end up.

Hey man, where you’re at sucks right now but it doesn’t define you. You can’t always choose your circumstances; you can always choose your attitude. Be a great officer and leader—chin up, move past it.

[Standby]

4 hours ago, admdelta said:

Thanks again guys. Unfortunately the CR did not go the way I had hoped. This is definitely not how I had envisioned this journey ending when I started it 6 or 7 years ago, and it hurts about as much as you would expect, but I’m gonna try and still be the best officer I can be wherever I end up.

Any option to go WSO/CSO? I have a couple of buddies who didn’t make it through UPT but made it as CSO/WSO. 

[frog]

4 hours ago, admdelta said:

I’m gonna try and still be the best officer I can be wherever I end up.

Sorry to hear that, and great mindset going forward. I was medically DQed before I ever got into the cockpit. I figured I would do four years as a CE officer and separate. Looking back twenty years later, the AF gave me some awesome opportunities and experiences to lead in some pretty challenging circumstances. Solid leadership is desperately needed throughout the service. One piece of advice: get to know some pilots at your next assignment, appreciate what they do, but avoid getting caught up in what could have been.

I will also share that washing out a demanding program like UPT doesn’t mean you can’t fly. I owned an airplane for 15 years and put over 1,000 hours on it. Recreational flying may not be as “cool”, but there are aspects of it that are pretty damn good.

[Arkbird]

I know admdelta personally and he's a good dude. He's going to be a star in whatever he goes to next just like he was in his prior career. 

[Danger41]

Sorry to hear that. Lots of good advice here. Look up Lewis “Chesty” Puller, Tom Norris, or Chuck DeBellevue if you want some examples of military officers that did okay after not making it through their services pilot training.

[Sim]

Get drunk. Accept reality and don't suck. Next assignment probably will have much better quality of life. 

[admdelta]

11 hours ago, Standby said:

Any option to go WSO/CSO? I have a couple of buddies who didn’t make it through UPT but made it as CSO/WSO. 

I think it's still on the table and it'll be my next choice as long as the pipeline isn't still backed up. Last I heard rumor was it was taking people over a year to get in there, so hopefully that's cleared up.

[admdelta]

10 hours ago, Arkbird said:

I know admdelta personally and he's a good dude. He's going to be a star in whatever he goes to next just like he was in his prior career. 

Thank you! Now I'm trying to figure out who you are IRL 😂

[Biff_T]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:37 PM, StrikeOut312 said:

Hey man, where you’re at sucks right now but it doesn’t define you. You can’t always choose your circumstances; you can always choose your attitude. Be a great officer and leader—chin up, move past it.

This.  Throughout history, a lot of good dudes have washed out of UPT.  I respect the fact that you aren't blaming UPT, you did your best.   You will get through this.  My bros who washed out did awesome in their new jobs.  Dont carry a grudge.  Do your best where they send you and you'll be able to live with yourself.  

[StoleIt]

Sorry to hear. But, it sounds like you have a great attitude and that is very important.

One of my buddies was in a similar situation and ended up getting force shaped back in 2010 time frame...he went on to go to a big name business school, owns his own airplane, and is a multimillionaire. He mostly regrets not serving in the AF up to his personal standard, but I'm sure he isn't sad while driving his Aston Martin.

[Danger41]

On 12/22/2023 at 6:57 AM, admdelta said:

I think it's still on the table and it'll be my next choice as long as the pipeline isn't still backed up. Last I heard rumor was it was taking people over a year to get in there, so hopefully that's cleared up.

If you decide to not go the CSO route, give a serious look into Cyber Ops. Hugely impactful career field and will set you up very well for post-AF career.