Strange medical issue related to 0g/.5g pushovers and rapid descents

[jxbh]

I am looking to get a PPL to be more competitive for guard/reserve units but have came across a strange medical issue involving 0g/.5g pushovers and rapid descents. 

Whenever the descent begins, my lower abdomen and legs immediately tense up and I'm almost paralyzed. For example, we did a performance takeoff and I was completely fine on the climb, but the second he went to level out my quads and lower abdomen locked up and I felt like I was leaning back in the seat with those muscles entirely tense. I am completely fine doing 2G banked turns, steep climbs, and dealing with turbulence and other normal flying maneuvers. However, for whatever reason, these steep descent and the pushovers do this to me. My core, lower back, and legs were actually sore after flying yesterday and encountering this. I've had this happen to me in a car when going up and down a deep bump quickly at speed, and also on a snowboard in the same scenario; however, in these cases, it only is an uncomfortable feeling in my lower abdomen and I never experience the leg lock or even the core lock. My instructor was concerned about this and will not let me solo unless this issue can be fixed (rightfully so). 

Has anyone seen a trainee do this/dealt with this issue themselves/even just heard about this issue? We were thinking it may be a rather unique vasovagal reaction. I'd really appreciate any insight y'all have on this matter.

[brabus]

I wouldn’t rule out it’s a subconscious response from your body “freaking out” over a new physiological situation it isn’t used to. I’d give it some more time and try to consciously think about relaxing. It’s a common response for the body to tense up when you feel anxiety, fear, stress, etc. (even if those feelings are subconscious). Don’t start to go down the crazy medical rabbit hole yet.

[jxbh]

9 hours ago, brabus said:

I wouldn’t rule out it’s a subconscious response from your body “freaking out” over a new physiological situation it isn’t used to. I’d give it some more time and try to consciously think about relaxing. It’s a common response for the body to tense up when you feel anxiety, fear, stress, etc. (even if those feelings are subconscious). Don’t start to go down the crazy medical rabbit hole yet.

Thank you for the reply. This is what we were thinking too.. that going up and repeatedly practicing the maneuvers will train my body out of it. Maybe something like the Valsalva technique would help with relaxing like you were talking about. I was going to anonymously talk to an AME just to make sure that doing this repeatedly wouldn't cause any internal damage, but definitely not speaking to anyone on the record unless I absolutely have to. 

[brabus]

I wouldn’t talk to an AME, unless you have a personal friend who’s willing to discuss hypothetical situations. I’ve been flying for 25 years and never have heard of an actual medical condition as you describe. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, but I think the most likely situation is your body subconsciously reacting to a new/uncomfortable physiological situation. Have CFI fly while you actively concentrate on staying relaxed during these scenarios - see if you can mentally (and therefore physically) train your body to stop tensing up.

Also, when you say < 1g/rapid descent, in what maneuvers is this happening? If your CFI is leveling off from a climb with less than 1g he either sucks at flying, or is to some extent fucking around (purposely doing < 1g with no requirement to do so)…neither is a good quality to have in a CFI teaching a new student.

[jxbh]

20 minutes ago, brabus said:

I wouldn’t talk to an AME, unless you have a personal friend who’s willing to discuss hypothetical situations. I’ve been flying for 25 years and never have heard of an actual medical condition as you describe. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, but I think the most likely situation is your body subconsciously reacting to a new/uncomfortable physiological situation. Have CFI fly while you actively concentrate on staying relaxed during these scenarios - see if you can mentally (and therefore physically) train your body to stop tensing up.

Also, when you say < 1g/rapid descent, in what maneuvers is this happening? If your CFI is leveling off from a climb with less than 1g he either sucks at flying, or is to some extent ing around (purposely doing < 1g with no requirement to do so)…neither is a good quality to have in a CFI teaching a new student.

It happened during 0 g and half g pushovers specifically. 

Edited February 15 by jxbh

[brabus]

As a side note, during what training maneuver is 0.5 to 0g flight occurring? 

[jxbh]

10 minutes ago, brabus said:

As a side note, during what training maneuver is 0.5 to 0g flight occurring? 

Him and I saw that it occurred on a performance takeoff, so we did some pushovers to see if it continued to happen, which it did. He was concerned that during severe turbulence or winds, the sensation may come back if the plane dropped enough and would inhibit me to safely operate the airplane. I don't think it happened during a training maneuver specifically but we didn't try any stalls into spins.. maybe that was something he was concerned about? 

I'm at the stage where I'm flying with instructors currently to find one that I enjoy flying with.. haven't done a ton of actual training yet, so I'm unfortunately not sure if any other training maneuvers cause it. I'm just guessing that a stall into a spin could cause it due to the nose dropping down so much but I have no experience to back that guess up. 

Edited February 15 by jxbh

[gearhog]

In UPT, I could pull positive Gs all day, but I had a O/negative G reaction. Instant active airsickness. Barany chair fixed me right up. Never had another problem.

I'm not a doctor, but it's possible you could be dealing with an overly sensitive semicircular canal. That, in turn, could be triggering an issue known to flight docs as "Manifestation of Apprehension". Several of my UPT studs had it. There are ways of dealing with both. If you have a Flight Physiology office near you, surely they'd be willing to help out even if you're not yet rated. Good luck.

[jxbh]

On 3/2/2024 at 4:01 AM, gearhog said:

In UPT, I could pull positive Gs all day, but I had a O/negative G reaction. Instant active airsickness. Barany chair fixed me right up. Never had another problem.

I'm not a doctor, but it's possible you could be dealing with an overly sensitive semicircular canal. That, in turn, could be triggering an issue known to flight docs as "Manifestation of Apprehension". Several of my UPT studs had it. There are ways of dealing with both. If you have a Flight Physiology office near you, surely they'd be willing to help out even if you're not yet rated. Good luck.

Thank you for the reply! I will explore using the chair to see if that may be able to help me fix my issue. I appreciate the info. 

Side question: wouldn't it be bad to go into the office with this issue, even if it's correctable, since it would go on my medical record? Or do you think that, since it may be fixable, it wouldn't be an issue?

[gearhog]

11 hours ago, jxbh said:

Thank you for the reply! I will explore using the chair to see if that may be able to help me fix my issue. I appreciate the info. 

Side question: wouldn't it be bad to go into the office with this issue, even if it's correctable, since it would go on my medical record? Or do you think that, since it may be fixable, it wouldn't be an issue?

As far as I know, Flight Physiology is separate from Flight Medicine. I don't believe they create records for your medical file. I'd tell them that you want some help without going into detail, but not if it is going to generate a paper trail. I definitely would not document it this early in your flight training. Try to rectify it without paperwork and seek help off base if possible.

[jxbh]

12 hours ago, gearhog said:

As far as I know, Flight Physiology is separate from Flight Medicine. I don't believe they create records for your medical file. I'd tell them that you want some help without going into detail, but not if it is going to generate a paper trail. I definitely would not document it this early in your flight training. Try to rectify it without paperwork and seek help off base if possible.

Definitely agree, I'll tread carefully. Thanks again!

[brabus]

He doesn’t have access to USAF flight phys or flight med. Not sure what equivalent exists in the civ world outside of AME, who I’ve never heard of doing physio type stuff (but maybe there are some?)

[jxbh]

On 3/4/2024 at 7:16 PM, gearhog said:

As far as I know, Flight Physiology is separate from Flight Medicine. I don't believe they create records for your medical file. I'd tell them that you want some help without going into detail, but not if it is going to generate a paper trail. I definitely would not document it this early in your flight training. Try to rectify it without paperwork and seek help off base if possible.

Checked with med group yesterday and unfortunately there are very limited flight physiology units out there; My base unfortunately doesn't have one. Maybe I can find a civilian office that deals with physio stuff like this

1 hour ago, brabus said:

He doesn’t have access to USAF flight phys or flight med. Not sure what equivalent exists in the civ world outside of AME, who I’ve never heard of doing physio type stuff (but maybe there are some?)

My med group doesn't have one anyway, so looks like a wash. Had been trying to just do research and figure it out, but I'll likely just take your suggestion and go up in the plane and repeatedly do the maneuver. More expensive than the chair and more time consuming, but likely would result in the same outcome

 

Edit: checked with a med group at a different base with aerospace physiology and they do require a flight doc recommendation in order to treat. 

Edited March 6 by jxbh