Which is harder, AF UPT or Army flight school?

[Tiger]

Serious question here, not looking to start a pissing contest.

I know there’s at least a couple people on this forum who have experience in both.  Which was generally “more difficult” and what made it so?  Or were some parts of one easier in the other and vice versa?

[Biff_T]

I've only attended USAF but I spent 9 months at Rucker.   The Army guys looked to be just as beat up as us AF dudes.   Neither are going to be easier just different.   

Army pilots dont have air conditioning in their tents downrange though.   

They also did formation PT early in the mornings during pilot training.  

Edited February 21 by Biff_T
Afterthought

[raimius]

I don't think experience is a good metric here.  If you have been through either, going through the other would be easier, since you would already have experience.

[Biff_T]

1 hour ago, raimius said:

I don't think experience is a good metric here.  If you have been through either, going through the other would be easier, since you would already have experience.

This. 

[HuggyU2]

Why the question?

[CharlieHotel47]

I did both.

What I experienced in the army was the product of the times I was in the early 2010s. It was the surge in Afghanistan. Can't hover the helicopter? Can't pass the PT test? Don't know your EPs? Here are some wings... you are now your unit's problem. The only thing that would get you kicked out was a DUI. Going through as a young 24-year-old WO1, it did not try at all. Drinked and partied all the damn time and still got my top choice of CH47s.

I thought UPT was way harder than Rucker. But when I went through I was way more mature. I got hired off the street by a tanker ANG unit and had to go through the full UPT. I was the last one to solo in my T6 class, even though I was a 1500-hour combat aviator in a helo. I guess I was just used to taking it slow in a helo. I would joke around telling folks at Vance that I used to do my ILSs at 60 knots... why? because I could. Now, going from Vance to OKC on a Rwy 17-day was a fast and rude awakening. 

I don't think it's a good metric to compare the two. The army sucks the fun out of everything and will try their hardest to change what should be a good experience into something horrible that will make you want to retire. At UPT, I lived for drop nights and the weekends. Party hard with the bros during those but come Sunday night it's time to hit the books and chair fly. 

But for your original question, I have the following:

ARMY Rucker: 

Easy

- The school program. Memorize a few things here and there. Doesn't matter if you even know what you're talking about, as long as you can spit it out verbatim, you will pass with flying colors.. - Flying VFR. Because flying instruments is very hard for all Apache pilots and MTPs.

- The standard and the ability to make it. I had people I graduated with who had no business being aviators. But the Army needed the numbers, so here are some wings. I remember day one at Rucker we had the brigade commander tell us that the flight school policy was "No Flight School Student Left Behind"

-I think the flying part is probably way easier nowadays. You fly UH72s in primary (no more TH-67s or OH-58s). The 72 has a pretty advanced flight control system that has studs being able to hover after perhaps an hour or two. 

Hard

-The Army. You will graduate and think you are god's gift to aviation. You are not, and here are some field training exercises and ground training shit to prove it and to make you feel like an infantry guy. Also, here is a two-piece flight suit, a PT belt, and Eye Pro... all of those are inspectable items by the sergeant major at any time, so best be ready. 

-Being a warrant officer - Oh you think your job is a flying-only track? what a scam... and to prove it, here is some paperwork on stands, safety, and ops that an officer should be doing, but it's easier for the army to make a warrant do it for half the price. 

-Being a commission officer - oh you want to fly? here are some awards to type and some inventories that need to get done. Nobody will be your mentor and warrants will see you as more of a hazard to the flight since you probably know the ops limits of your computer better than any real helicopter anyway. 

 

USAF UPT:

Easy

-Wearing a one-piece flight suit and finally feeling like a real pilot. 

-Pulling Gs. Because doing a 60-degree bank in a helicopter is a pretty serious maneuver. 

Hard

-The information overload and the fast pace of things. I remember coming back from a flight at Vance early during T6s. I was tired and beat up from all the U's my FAIP just gave me. I saw a random IP walking straight toward me to ask me what I was doing as soon as sat down in the flight room. Studying I said... Only to hear him say "No your not. We are stepping into another jet so let's GO! You can brief me on what all you need to clean up as we walk to the jet."

 

All finish up by saying that the lifestyle in the USAF is a million times better than the Army. If your post originated as a product of frustration because you're having issues being selected to AD, ANG, or reserves, my advice is to KEEP trying dude. Don't look at going Army simply because the USAF is being too selective. It's supposed to be selective! The army should only be an alternative if age is not on your side. 

Hope that helps. 

Cheers 

[tac airlifter]

Damn Charlie, good on you for going through two UPT's; that is a serious gut check. Well done bro and good write up.

[M2]

Not a part of the Army Aviation community, but know a few who are and shared the following...

• 38 crew members and 18 aircraft lost to training accidents in a year, to include two this past Friday in Mississippi.
• Technical failures are accounting for <2% of Class A mishaps.
• You can’t have quality IERW (Initial Entry Rotary Wing) graduates when 100% make it through the training.
• Poor leadership and failures to enforce standards are the root causes.
• U S Army failing year after year to make their recruiting numbers, so it’s just doubling down on the issue.
• Novosel (Rucker) has not been resolving...

Army Aviation is definitely having issues at the moment!

[fire4effect]

On 2/26/2024 at 11:49 AM, M2 said:

Not a part of the Army Aviation community, but know a few who are and shared the following...

• 38 crew members and 18 aircraft lost to training accidents in a year, to include two this past Friday in Mississippi.
• Technical failures are accounting for <2% of Class A mishaps.
• You can’t have quality IERW (Initial Entry Rotary Wing) graduates when 100% make it through the training.
• Poor leadership and failures to enforce standards are the root causes.
• U S Army failing year after year to make their recruiting numbers, so it’s just doubling down on the issue.
• Novosel (Rucker) has not been resolving...

Army Aviation is definitely having issues at the moment!

I would say just the sheer amount of time operating in close proximity to Mother Earth and everything sticking out of it not to mention operating off other than pavement raise the odds of a mishap even on a good day. My .69

[Majestik Møøse]

I know a guy that couldn’t enlist in the USAF because his ASVAB was too low. So he joined the Army and they made him a Tower Controller, then they sent him to flight school and he’s flying C-12s now. So there’s that.

[slackline]

Guy that lived next to me at Rucker when I moved in to start the AF training (back in '04) was in the exact same position in the syllabus six months later when I left.  Anecdotal at best, but that story was not unique.  Does Army have amazing pilots, you bet, but they go through the numbers to find them...

[Biff_T]

22 hours ago, fire4effect said:

I would say just the sheer amount of time operating in close proximity to Mother Earth and everything sticking out of it not to mention operating off other than pavement raise the odds of a mishap even on a good day. My .69

This.

Everything is trying to kill you when you fly helicopters, not just the pilots. 

[Danger41]

14 hours ago, Majestik Møøse said:

I know a guy that couldn’t enlist in the USAF because his ASVAB was too low. So he joined the Army and they made him a Tower Controller, then they sent him to flight school and he’s flying C-12s now. So there’s that.

The C-12 thing in the Army is so strange to me. Seems like that is a very sought after airframe which begs the question…why would you try to fly for the Army (99% helo) then gun for fixed wing?

[kaputt]

1 hour ago, Danger41 said:

The C-12 thing in the Army is so strange to me. Seems like that is a very sought after airframe which begs the question…why would you try to fly for the Army (99% helo) then gun for fixed wing?

Having some insight into the Army fixed wing world through civilian work; it’s sought after because it’s so rare and is seen as a golden ticket. Historically Army FW was always something you got into later in your career, so it was highly desired as basically a late career cush gig. 
 

The initial entry fixed wing track is relatively recent where guys are finishing the Lakota and then going straight to FW training. Even still most guys weren’t gunning for FW from the start and only started to look at it when they realized their class ranking put them in contention for it. 

That being said, the initial entry fixed wing good deal is probably close to coming to an end. The Army is retiring the bulk of their ISR C-12 fleet and doesn’t have the replacement program up and running yet. So right now they are fat on fixed wing pilots. The initial entry guys are currently going to fixed wing training, completing it, and then going straight to the Blackhawk course with no promise of if or when they may get back to the fixed wing side. 
 

So much for “fixed wing for life”, which is what they were telling these kids just a few years ago. Welcome to the Army!  

[brabus]

I don't get why you would go to the Army if you wanted FW. You have two other options that have far more FW and have  far less bad deals.

[CharlieHotel47]

3 hours ago, Danger41 said:

The C-12 thing in the Army is so strange to me. Seems like that is a very sought after airframe which begs the question…why would you try to fly for the Army (99% helo) then gun for fixed wing?

yeah, I bet he started as a helo guy. Then realized life sucks as an Apache or BlackHawk pilot. The C-12 community is one of the best-kept secrets. At least when I was in the army guard, you got a C12 slot if you were in the good ole club. And by the good ole club, I mean an LTC or COL reverting to a CW2 to finish out his time not doing shit in the C-12 community.  

[Lawman]

I don't get why you would go to the Army if you wanted FW. You have two other options that have far more FW and have  far less bad deals.

Because you can do it as a warrant.

For an enlisted soldier with little to no that’s a huge advantage.

Nobody pretends it’s the normal Army though. It’s like a weird thing in its own MI/VIP world.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[brabus]

@Lawman Is there a direct WO track off the street, or do you have to do X years before boarding/applying/whatever for WO?

[Lawman]

[mention=2836]Lawman[/mention] Is there a direct WO track off the street, or do you have to do X years before boarding/applying/whatever for WO?

Historically active duty it’s majority prior enlisted with about 20-35% of an assessed year group being straight street to seat. For guard it’s almost exclusively folks that spent some time in the states units as an E sort of earning their bro credentials because the states pay for their schooling.

While college education and outside flying experience can make a big impact in the direct warrants (09W MOS), it’s not a requirement. It’s mostly a factor of SIFT score, letters of recommendation, your board evaluation, and finally and most importantly needs of the Army.

Selecting street to seat honestly pays off more for the Army long term because it’s guys who can live to CW5 without going past 20 by a significant amount, but there has never been a big push to make it the majority of the selection pool culturally because one of the best parts about our warrant pool is the presence of a lot of prior E guys (many who worked in aviation) kind of maturing their peers faster. Of the senior aviation warrants in my brigade HQ though, almost half are street to seat….. that isn’t normal, but it’s becoming more common.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Polar Bear]

On 2/28/2024 at 3:12 PM, brabus said:

I don't get why you would go to the Army if you wanted FW. You have two other options that have far more FW and have  far less bad deals.

Even with a degree the Navy and AF want stem degrees. Army just wants bodies. 

[brabus]

10 minutes ago, Polar Bear said:

Even with a degree the Navy and AF want stem degrees. Army just wants bodies. 

The AF doesn’t give a shit about degree type or pedigree, just that you check the box to commission. 

[Polar Bear]

28 minutes ago, brabus said:

The AF doesn’t give a shit about degree type or pedigree, just that you check the box to commission. 

Tell that to the recruiters who won’t speak to you if you don’t. 

[brabus]

OTS? I guess I could see that, but OTS has always been the worst way to get to flying from a probability of success  perspective. Any other route to flying isn’t going to care.  

[Lawman]

OTS? I guess I could see that, but OTS has always been the worst way to get to flying from a probability of success  perspective. Any other route to flying isn’t going to care.  

It’s the same for the Army.

If you go to OTS without things like a specific completed flight phys, a current SIFT, a letter from Jesus etc, there is no way to select it. Even if it’s available people go to OCS only to watch it pass by and end up a chemo or something. That often times a reason you meet warrants with college degrees that directly assessed. They didn’t want to end up in the quartermaster corps as a 2Lt.

For the regular line officers it’s West Point > ROTC > OCS if your stated goal is to end up in aviation. In fact the only people I’ve met that didn’t really want aviation but got it were West Pointers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Majestik Møøse]

On 2/28/2024 at 3:12 PM, brabus said:

I don't get why you would go to the Army if you wanted FW. You have two other options that have far more FW and have  far less bad deals.

Because you don’t have to go to college first.