Standups at UPT

[FLEA]

24 minutes ago, Bigred said:

I guess agree to disagree. The kid couldn’t handle being told he was all jacked up and imploded. I think it’s a good thing because who knows how he’d handle life after flight school. 

Probably fine if someone mentored him on how to harness failure. But the AF lacks mentors right now so probably noone would have stepped up and it would have been catastrophic. In that case you're correct. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by FLEA

[slackline]

6 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Probably fine if someone mentored him on how to harness failure. But the AF lacks mentors right now so probably noone would have stepped up and it would have been catastrophic. In that case you're correct. 

Agreed, but it also ignores that plenty of toxic leaders (that Flt/cc could fit that bill, we don’t know) have driven out highly qualified, good officers.  In that case, he’s wrong.

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, slackline said:

Agreed, but it also ignores that plenty of toxic leaders (that Flt/cc could fit that bill, we don’t know) have driven out highly qualified, good officers.  In that case, he’s wrong.

I mean in either case, if a dude is killing it all the way to phase 3 and then his grades just hike off a cliff, that was clearly a wasted oppurtunity to retain some great talent. This was a problem that could have been easily fixed. 

[Vito]

I understand your point about my classmate being  unable to handle the stress of the added scrutiny he received after his stand up debacle, however, I saw this “piling on” mentality numerous times in UPT. Once a stud showed the slightest crack, or weakness the “vultures” (IP’s)  would start circling and the added stress caused many to washout. I also witnessed firsthand, my own IP telling me he was going to washout a fellow student the next morning during the standup! He did, after the stud fainted during a very stressful standup scenario that any of us would have screwed up. Like I said, different times.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Vito

[HuggyU2]

49 minutes ago, Vito said:

Like I said, different times.

Vito is spot on:  it was a "different time".  

In my opinion, a lot of the folks that washed out in my class (DLF 86-05) would have graduated UPT just a few years later.  We started with 63, and graduated 42... exactly 33% washout rate.  And that was not uncharacteristic.  

Having been a FAIP during the 86-89 timeframe, I saw the worst of it, and then it began to trail off a little before I left.  We saw a few losses in the T-38, but that burden fell mainly on the T-37 IP's.  

As a PIT IP from 93-96, I didn't have first hand knowledge, but it was generally well known that the washout rate was quite low.

I can't recall specifics anymore, but I remember "leadership" mandating that pilots make it through training.  

Like I stated... a lot of students that washed out would have become USAF pilots had they gone through UPT just a few years later.  

[slackline]

2 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

Vito is spot on:  it was a "different time".  

In my opinion, a lot of the folks that washed out in my class (DLF 86-05) would have graduated UPT just a few years later.  We started with 63, and graduated 42... exactly 33% washout rate.  And that was not uncharacteristic.  

Having been a FAIP during the 86-89 timeframe, I saw the worst of it, and then it began to trail off a little before I left.  We saw a few losses in the T-38, but that burden fell mainly on the T-37 IP's.  

As a PIT IP from 93-96, I didn't have first hand knowledge, but it was generally well known that the washout rate was quite low.

I can't recall specifics anymore, but I remember "leadership" mandating that pilots make it through training.  

Like I stated... a lot of students that washed out would have become USAF pilots had they gone through UPT just a few years later.  

^This!

We have a ways to go, but we've also come a long way.  This is an example of incredibly poor leadership, not an example of finding dudes/dudettes who wouldn't be able to hack it in combat.  I know there are people that slip through the cracks and somehow make it to UPT, but that "wheat has been shifted" by the time they get to UPT. You only make it there if you've shown yourself to be a fairly capable individual. 

Anyone denying it, sorry, not trying to put a dent in your memory of how awesome you were in UPT, and how you'd have held up better the scrutiny the IPs determined to see you wash out. 

[Vito]

Another example of the “ masochism” that occurred. We had a stud, who became a very good friend, that was very smart and very successful in any endeavor he pursued prior to UPT. Top of his High school class, graduated college in 3 years, Magna Cum Laude, DG from OTS etc. He was the only stud who passed the first boldface test we took. He lasted about 6 weeks once we got to Tweets before he washed out. We were all shocked. After he left one of the IP’s told me that his issue was he expected perfection in his flying, so when he made a mistake, even a small one, it bothered him so much it affected the rest of the flight. The IP told me after that, even if he didn’t make a mistake, they told him he did something wrong.  Instead of ignoring the “fake” mistake and continue the flight,  he tried to figure out what he did wrong and his performance and confidence suffered. It was a game the IP’s played with his head until he SIE’ed. The good news is he got a second chance at UPT about 5 years later, and earned his wings and retired as an O-5.  

 

 

my Class 87-04 actually graduated 26 or the original 52 students, the other 3 were washbacks from other classes

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Vito

[Bergman]

5 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

 

As a PIT IP from 93-96, I didn't have first hand knowledge, but it was generally well known that the washout rate was quite low.

I assume at KRND?  I was a nav stud back then.  Guy Neddo was my Flt/CC in the 557th.

[Swamp Yankee]

22 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

Vito is spot on:  it was a "different time".  

In my opinion, a lot of the folks that washed out in my class (DLF 86-05) would have graduated UPT just a few years later.  We started with 63, and graduated 42... exactly 33% washout rate.  And that was not uncharacteristic.  

Having been a FAIP during the 86-89 timeframe, I saw the worst of it, and then it began to trail off a little before I left.  We saw a few losses in the T-38, but that burden fell mainly on the T-37 IP's.  

As a PIT IP from 93-96, I didn't have first hand knowledge, but it was generally well known that the washout rate was quite low.

I can't recall specifics anymore, but I remember "leadership" mandating that pilots make it through training.  

Like I stated... a lot of students that washed out would have become USAF pilots had they gone through UPT just a few years later.  

I can attest to the low 93-96 washout rate as a Laughlin 94-01 class member.  We lost maybe 4 with one guy going to Rucker. Another was a legitimate candidate for the funny farm (I was just an ROTC yahoo but how did he get through the AF Academy?) That said, I don’t remember anyone else who should have washed.  I ended up right in the middle. Did great in Tweets and middling in -38s. Probably would have ranked higher with T-1s. Regardless, as a -130 guard guy it worked out fine. 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Swamp Yankee

[Swamp Yankee]

On 1/26/2021 at 4:22 PM, Vito said:

I understand your point about my classmate being  unable to handle the stress of the added scrutiny he received after his stand up debacle, however, I saw this “piling on” mentality numerous times in UPT. Once a stud showed the slightest crack, or weakness the “vultures” (IP’s)  would start circling and the added stress caused many to washout. I also witnessed firsthand, my own IP telling me he was going to washout a fellow student the next morning during the standup! He did, after the stud fainted during a very stressful standup scenario that any of us would have screwed up. Like I said, different times.

Wow - this (revived) thread really brings me back.  My biggest UPT stressor/shame was being the first stud in the class to get a standup...and then getting sat down. The scenario led to an ejection in the Tweet. All was going well until the end when I was told I was landing in trees.  I forgot to position my arms in front of my face. “Lieutenant, your eyes and neck are ripped out”.  Extra embarrassing since I went to Benning a couple years prior and had jump wings on my name tag. But the key point: I never forgot that again!!  

Edited January 27, 2021 by Swamp Yankee

[HuggyU2]

On 1/26/2021 at 8:19 PM, Bergman said:

I assume at KRND?  I was a nav stud back then.  Guy Neddo was my Flt/CC in the 557th.

RND indeed.  I worked across the street from you in the sim building (I was OSS).  Guy was 559th, IIRC.  We were FAIPs at DLF together... and roommates on a U-2 deployment in 1999.  

[Scooter14]

I assume at KRND?  I was a nav stud back then.  Guy Neddo was my Flt/CC in the 557th.

Wow Bergman, that was many moons ago, but yeah I remember that. Guy Neddo, Sluggo Wilken was the guy I flew with a bunch and I also got to sim with him at Vance years later. The Billygoats, that old condemned building we were in, meticulously plotting hundreds of little red towers out of the Chart Update Manual and then accidentally spilling bleach on said towers and watching them disappear...good times.

Easily the most fun phase of nav school back then. Way more fun than wandering around the western US at FL270.

[Bergman]

18 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

RND indeed.  I worked across the street from you in the sim building (I was OSS).  Guy was 559th, IIRC.  We were FAIPs at DLF together... and roommates on a U-2 deployment in 1999.  

Shit, typo...559th indeed.  Small world my friend!

[Bergman]

15 hours ago, Scooter14 said:

 

Wow Bergman, that was many moons ago, but yeah I remember that. Guy Neddo, Sluggo Wilken was the guy I flew with a bunch and I also got to sim with him at Vance years later. The Billygoats, that old condemned building we were in, meticulously plotting hundreds of little red towers out of the Chart Update Manual and then accidentally spilling bleach on said towers and watching them disappear...good times.

Easily the most fun phase of nav school back then. Way more fun than wandering around the western US at FL270.
 

 

Doesn’t seem that long ago!  I actually still have my nav school charts somewhere.  I’m a pack-rat apparently. Lol

Saw a FB post from Davis-Monthan that showed the T-43s...the only plane that could be 13 places at once.  Where each of the 12 studs thought they were...and the aircraft’s actual location.

[herkbum]

Doesn’t seem that long ago!  I actually still have my nav school charts somewhere.  I’m a pack-rat apparently. Lol
Saw a FB post from Davis-Monthan that showed the T-43s...the only plane that could be 13 places at once.  Where each of the 12 studs thought they were...and the aircraft’s actual location.

The mighty Gator! I remember it well.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

[FLEA]

On 1/27/2021 at 11:24 PM, Swamp Yankee said:

Wow - this (revived) thread really brings me back.  My biggest UPT stressor/shame was being the first stud in the class to get a standup...and then getting sat down. The scenario led to an ejection in the Tweet. All was going well until the end when I was told I was landing in trees.  I forgot to position my arms in front of my face. “Lieutenant, your eyes and neck are ripped out”.  Extra embarrassing since I went to Benning a couple years prior and had jump wings on my name tag. But the key point: I never forgot that again!!  

Holy shit, well, let it be known if you ever need to summon a grey beard, just stand in front of a mirror in a dark room and say "I have the aircraft, sir, I will maintain aircraft control, analyze the situation, take the proper action and land as soon as conditions permit" 3 times while holding a candle. 

[Motofalcon]

Speaking of stress and flying training - I’m not on the facebooks, but I recently heard of a video from either AETC or 19AF that was “selling” the new UPT program/mentality/mindset that was low/zero stress, to include the phrase “no more helmet fires!”

You guys/gals seen it?  I’ve heard the page is full of comments calling BS for all the same reasons above and that stress in training is important...

Things like this make me think having a Facebook would be worth it, but I still haven’t pulled the trigger - Maybe it’s time...

[mp5g]

7 hours ago, Motofalcon said:

Speaking of stress and flying training - I’m not on the facebooks, but I recently heard of a video from either AETC or 19AF that was “selling” the new UPT program/mentality/mindset that was low/zero stress, to include the phrase “no more helmet fires!”

You guys/gals seen it?  I’ve heard the page is full of comments calling BS for all the same reasons above and that stress in training is important...

Things like this make me think having a Facebook would be worth it, but I still haven’t pulled the trigger - Maybe it’s time...

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CKPmFuahKlo/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

For your viewing pleasure 

[SocialD]

16 hours ago, Motofalcon said:

Things like this make me think having a Facebook would be worth it, but I still haven’t pulled the trigger - Maybe it’s time...

 

You're not missing much, standard people there.  Ones that want nothing to change because "that's the way it's always been."  Those that are genuinely trying to convey what's going on (if you read these, it actually seems like it has potential).  Then the ones that buckle and turn all their posts into a sir sandwich when a General posts on the thread.  

[slackline]

1 minute ago, SocialD said:

 

You're not missing much, standard people there.  Ones that want nothing to change because "that's the way it's always been."  Those that are genuinely trying to convey what's going on (if you read these, it actually seems like it has potential).  Then the ones that buckle and turn all their posts into a sir sandwich when a General posts on the thread.  

"That's the way we've always done it" were some of the only words that ever made me get angry with any of my peeps.  People constantly bemoan change until gradually that change becomes the norm, and hence, the "way we've always done it".  I used to ask anyone who told me that if there was nothing we could do better, why do things still suck in their ops/training/etc?

[Swamp Yankee]

On 1/30/2021 at 4:49 PM, slackline said:

"That's the way we've always done it" were some of the only words that ever made me get angry with any of my peeps.  People constantly bemoan change until gradually that change becomes the norm, and hence, the "way we've always done it".  I used to ask anyone who told me that if there was nothing we could do better, why do things still suck in their ops/training/etc?

Totally agree.  “...the way we’ve always done it” is never a good answer.  A Special Tactics guy I’ve kept in touch with called such thinking death of the soul.  There are always TTPs, but they must be justifiable and logical. 

[Sneedro]

On 1/18/2021 at 1:00 PM, Homestar said:

 I wonder where @Sneedro is now.....

👋  @Homestar I am not beyond my military flying days.  Living the life in the airline world now and doing a CAP reserve job to get through my final 3.5 years!  This brings back memories!

[yzl337]

On 1/29/2021 at 11:13 PM, Motofalcon said:

Speaking of stress and flying training - I’m not on the facebooks, but I recently heard of a video from either AETC or 19AF that was “selling” the new UPT program/mentality/mindset that was low/zero stress, to include the phrase “no more helmet fires!”

You guys/gals seen it?  I’ve heard the page is full of comments calling BS for all the same reasons above and that stress in training is important...

Things like this make me think having a Facebook would be worth it, but I still haven’t pulled the trigger - Maybe it’s time...

My student yesterday would probably attest that even in upt 2.5, stress is plentiful and raging helmet fires are still very normal, though I’m not sure if he’s landed yet, considering how far behind the plane he was. 

[Splash95]

Current 2.5 student. Can verify the frequency of stress and helmet fires.

[SurelySerious]

1 hour ago, Splash95 said:

Current 2.5 student. Can verify the frequency of stress and helmet fires.

Sorry bout that, thought we sacked the guy responsible for those.