AFSOC SMA killed by police in home

[fire4effect]

At the risk of piling on the LE community I happened to come across this the other day. Interesting nexus between Texas/New Mexico LE and American Airlines. Can't make this SH!T up if halfway true. I haven't been able to find out how it was finally resolved even though it was 2 years ago.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=newssearch&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj06r-m2ZiIAxVB4skDHSf3KRYQxfQBKAB6BAgREAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fox10phoenix.com%2Fnews%2Fmichael-lowe-american-airlines-mistaken-identity-new-mexico-jail&usg=AOvVaw0fg4RKg7mgD5LC13SO8tJ9&opi=89978449

[raimius]

13 hours ago, HeloDude said:

I agree with everything you said…my response was to Raimius who seemed to make the argument that the LEO was intentionally wanting to murder the guy, which I very much disagree unless there is clear evidence to the contrary.

When you shoot someone multiple times in the upper torso, they will likely die.  The cop was using lethal force intentionally.  Killing someone intentionally, without proper justification, is generally "murder." I'm sure that the cop thought he was justified in that moment, but the film doesn't seem to offer any reasonable justification for lethal force...aka he was not justified in his intentional use of lethal force.

I'm not saying he wanted to murder, but any charge based on unintentionally killing is probably the wrong charge to bring.  He killed the guy because his judgement was wrong not because the gun accidentally went off a half dozen times.

[M2]

11 hours ago, raimius said:

When you shoot someone multiple times in the upper torso, they will likely die.  The cop was using lethal force intentionally.  Killing someone intentionally, without proper justification, is generally "murder." I'm sure that the cop thought he was justified in that moment, but the film doesn't seem to offer any reasonable justification for lethal force...aka he was not justified in his intentional use of lethal force.

I'm not saying he wanted to murder, but any charge based on unintentionally killing is probably the wrong charge to bring.  He killed the guy because his judgement was wrong not because the gun accidentally went off a half dozen times.

Nope, cops are trained to shoot that way.  It's intended to stop a threat, not kill. 

The fact he shot him multiple times will not be a factor nor does it make this premeditated in any manner.  

What it comes down to is the deputy overreacted to the site of the handgun.

I have had several LEO buds defend what he did, but the video clearly shows there wasn't justification to shoot him as having a weapon in your hand does not automatically make a person a threat.

However, let's be clear and the terms and what they actually mean in the State of Florida Penal Code...

Homicide is a blanket term that describes any event in which one person causes another person’s death. Anytime someone is killed by the action of another person, it is deemed a homicide.

Murder is defined as an act of intent, which means that an intentional act was carried out, and someone died as a result. Murder is the intentional and unlawful killing of another person. In the courtroom, establishing a charge of murder requires proof that premeditated planning took place (first-degree murder) or an act in the heat of the moment urged a person to intentionally kill another person (second-degree murder).

Florida law differentiates two types of murder: first-degree murder and second-degree murder.

First-degree murder is premeditated and occurs when the intentional act of killing another person takes place. It is also used to describe murder that occurred in conjunction with certain other felonies, such as kidnapping or robbery. In Florida, first-degree murder is punishable by life in prison and may even elicit the death penalty in some cases.

Second-degree murder is not premeditated or planned out in advance, but it still involves the intentional killing of another person. It occurs when one person causes the death of another person in the heat of the moment but intentionally. This can happen within a fight or argument that just happens to escalate so far that it leads one person to make an intentional decision to kill the other person. It was not premeditated, but it was intentional, nonetheless. Second-degree murder in Florida can get you a sentence of life in prison.

Manslaughter is the unintentional killing of someone else. It involves the unlawful killing of another person without premeditated intentions and/or an intent to kill. If someone means to harm someone else and happens to inadvertently kill them instead, it is manslaughter. A conviction of manslaughter does not require the prosecution to prove that there was an intent to kill or an intentional cause of harm. Instead, it must simply prove that the defendant killed the other person.

Manslaughter is also divided into two categories: voluntary and involuntary.

Voluntary manslaughter occurs when someone unintentionally kills another while they are committing another felony. It can also arise within a fight or argument, like second-degree murder. However, there is no intentional act of killing when manslaughter occurs. There may be an intention to harm but not to kill. Florida voluntary manslaughter charges will garner a maximum of 15 to 30 years in prison for anyone convicted of these charges.

Involuntary manslaughter, on the other hand, involves someone killing another person unintentionally, not while committing another felony, but due to their own negligence, recklessness, or lack of responsible behavior. Involuntary manslaughter can carry a penalty of up to 15 years in prison in Florida.

This was involuntary manslaughter, it doesn't meet the burden of proof for second-degree murder.

[Lord Ratner]

On 8/27/2024 at 5:39 PM, contraildash said:

The LEO forums out there are very disturbing in their take on all this. Basically gun=justified shooting. Several cops/deputies that I know have this paranoid, we are at war attitude. It’s always a really slimy discussion with them as they justify shootings like this one and even the acorn incident.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

The acorn incident demonstrated everything we need to know about how corrupted our concept of policing has become. 

 

That's not a commentary on the actual officers. These incidents are happening too much to blame on rogue cops. They do feel like they're at war, and depending on where they are, they might be. Every time America has sent soldiers into war zones, a good portion of them come back broken. It's very hard to exist in a world where you are a target and then transition into a civilized existence.

The fact that officers don't travel around with partners anymore is probably one of the biggest single factors I can identify. The simple reality is that you are much more vulnerable, and you feel much more vulnerable, when you are alone. 

However the incident recently where the two cops shot a woman in her own home, clearly mentally compromised, because she threw a pot of hot water at them, shows that the issue isn't just cops being solo. Another part of it is the expectation that any risk to their lives is an unacceptable risk. We don't accept that mindset in the military and we shouldn't accept it in the police. Risk is part of the job, and yes, it's better if a cop dies than an innocent person being killed by the cops. Both on an a professional level and from the perspective of maintaining citizen faith in the system. 

 

https://apnews.com/article/illinois-sheriffs-deputy-charged-cf164189d678f921deff05fa3789d3a2

You can watch the body cam footage of this shooting. I'm not arguing that people should have free reign to throw boiling water at cops, but they were in her house for an issue that did not involve her as a threat, and as soon as she started acting crazy they could have and should have backed out of her house and deescalated.

Instead the cop stood his ground and barked orders at a crazy person. 

That doesn't mean this cop should go to jail for the rest of his life. But it does mean that something is deeply flawed with the modern view of policing and training of officers.

 

[Lord Ratner]

On 8/29/2024 at 8:39 AM, M2 said:

Nope, cops are trained to shoot that way.  It's intended to stop a threat, not kill. 

The fact he shot him multiple times will not be a factor nor does it make this premeditated in any manner.  

What it comes down to is the deputy overreacted to the site of the handgun.

I have had several LEO buds defend what he did, but the video clearly shows there wasn't justification to shoot him as having a weapon in your hand does not automatically make a person a threat.

However, let's be clear and the terms and what they actually mean in the State of Florida Penal Code...

Homicide is a blanket term that describes any event in which one person causes another person’s death. Anytime someone is killed by the action of another person, it is deemed a homicide.

Murder is defined as an act of intent, which means that an intentional act was carried out, and someone died as a result. Murder is the intentional and unlawful killing of another person. In the courtroom, establishing a charge of murder requires proof that premeditated planning took place (first-degree murder) or an act in the heat of the moment urged a person to intentionally kill another person (second-degree murder).

Florida law differentiates two types of murder: first-degree murder and second-degree murder.

First-degree murder is premeditated and occurs when the intentional act of killing another person takes place. It is also used to describe murder that occurred in conjunction with certain other felonies, such as kidnapping or robbery. In Florida, first-degree murder is punishable by life in prison and may even elicit the death penalty in some cases.

Second-degree murder is not premeditated or planned out in advance, but it still involves the intentional killing of another person. It occurs when one person causes the death of another person in the heat of the moment but intentionally. nonetheless. Second-degree murder in Florida can get you a sentence of life in prison.

Manslaughter is the unintentional killing of someone else. It involves the unlawful killing of another person without premeditated intentions and/or an intent to kill. If someone means to harm someone else and happens to inadvertently kill them instead, it is manslaughter. A conviction of manslaughter does not require the prosecution to prove that there was an intent to kill or an intentional cause of harm. Instead, it must simply prove that the defendant killed the other person.

Manslaughter is also divided into two categories: voluntary and involuntary.

Voluntary manslaughter occurs when someone unintentionally kills another while they are committing another felony. It can also arise within a fight or argument, like second-degree murder. However, there is no intentional act of killing when manslaughter occurs. There may be an intention to harm but not to kill. Florida voluntary manslaughter charges will garner a maximum of 15 to 30 years in prison for anyone convicted of these charges.

Involuntary manslaughter, on the other hand, involves someone killing another person unintentionally, not while committing another felony, but due to their own negligence, recklessness, or lack of responsible behavior. Involuntary manslaughter can carry a penalty of up to 15 years in prison in Florida.

This was involuntary manslaughter, it doesn't meet the burden of proof for second-degree murder.

I think you're mistaking the definition of unintentional. This officer very intentionally killed the airman. When he drew his weapon and began firing, as you stated, he was firing to neutralize the threat. And for the police, you shoot to kill, not injure. Center mass or head. He intentionally drew his weapon and intentionally fired it until the target, intentionally selected, was neutralized, which includes the reasonable assumption of death.

 

Unintentional homicide would be like what Alec Baldwin did. He had absolutely no intent to kill that woman, but his negligence in handling the firearm resulted in it.

 

Read the paragraph on second-degree murder again (I somehow screwed it up in the quoted block). "... Leads one person to make an intentional decision to kill the other person. It was not premeditated, but it was intentional nonetheless."

Edited August 30 by Lord Ratner

[Sua Sponte]

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

The acorn incident demonstrated everything we need to know about how corrupted our concept of policing has become. 

 

That's not a commentary on the actual officers. These incidents are happening too much to blame on rogue cops. They do feel like they're at war, and depending on where they are, they might be. Every time America has sent soldiers into war zones, a good portion of them come back broken. It's very hard to exist in a world where you are a target and then transition into a civilized existence.

The fact that officers don't travel around with partners anymore is probably one of the biggest single factors I can identify. The simple reality is that you are much more vulnerable, and you feel much more vulnerable, when you are alone. 

However the incident recently where the two cops shot a woman in her own home, clearly mentally compromised, because she threw a pot of hot water at them, shows that the issue isn't just cops being solo. Another part of it is the expectation that any risk to their lives is an unacceptable risk. We don't accept that mindset in the military and we shouldn't accept it in the police. Risk is part of the job, and yes, it's better if a cop dies than an innocent person being killed by the cops. Both on an a professional level and from the perspective of maintaining citizen faith in the system. 

 

https://apnews.com/article/illinois-sheriffs-deputy-charged-cf164189d678f921deff05fa3789d3a2

You can watch the body cam footage of this shooting. I'm not arguing that people should have free reign to throw boiling water at cops, but they were in her house for an issue that did not involve her as a threat, and as soon as she started acting crazy they could have and should have backed out of her house and deescalated.

Instead the cop stood his ground and barked orders at a crazy person. 

That doesn't mean this cop should go to jail for the rest of his life. But it does mean that something is deeply flawed with the modern view of policing and training of officers.

 

After viewing the body cam footage multiple times, I don’t think she threw water at him. She was boiling water and put her hands in front of her face in a crouched in a defensive position. His partner even had to convince him to render first aid to her, which he begrudgingly did after arguing that it was a head shot and she “was done.” Video footage of him in jail was released where he was joking around with other officers about how he was just going to be released on bond.
 

This is a guy who bounced around to six law enforcement jobs since 2020. He was also kicked out the Army after two years in. This dude is a murderer and he’s either going to prison for life or he’ll be dead by the Stage 4 colon cancer he has.

Edited August 30 by Sua Sponte

[M2]

2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

I think you're mistaking the definition of unintentional. This officer very intentionally killed the airman. When he drew his weapon and began firing, as you stated, he was firing to neutralize the threat. And for the police, you shoot to kill, not injure. Center mass or head. He intentionally drew his weapon and intentionally fired it until the target, intentionally selected, was neutralized, which includes the reasonable assumption of death.

 

Unintentional homicide would be like what Alec Baldwin did. He had absolutely no intent to kill that woman, but his negligence in handling the firearm resulted in it.

 

Read the paragraph on second-degree murder again (I somehow screwed it up in the quoted block). "... Leads one person to make an intentional decision to kill the other person. It was not premeditated, but it was intentional nonetheless."

Show me where I focused on the term 'intentional?'  I was highlighting the "premeditated" part of the Penal Code, which this wasn't.

There is no way he will be charged with murder except, of course, if it's politically motivated.

[M2]

Bail granted.

And note the charge is 'manslaughter with a firearm.'

https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/roger-fortson-airman-shot/2024/08/29/id/1178422/