Initial Pilot Training and Future Pilot Training

[LookieRookie]

I’ve talked about commercial training for ratings for a SGTO a bit before but here’s an actual AETC article talking about it.

It’s the brain child of Matt Leard the AETC/A5/8.

https://www.aetc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/4024636/us-air-force-partners-with-academia-industry-to-test-future-pilot-production-mo/

 

oh and the T-7 is still a dumpster fire.

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/usaf-rejiggers-t-7-plan/

 

[raimius]

IF (big IF) syllabus design and quality stan/eval are good for the civilian portion, this could work.  It does give stan more flight hours than the current syllabus (which is a definite good, in my book).

[hindsight2020]

*yawn* more sophistry. I'm already on record, I only timestamp these rants on the interboobs so the forensics can go back in 10 years and go "yep, we knew". 

We've been through this all the way back to 2018 fam; it is a dilution of quality, definitionally.

Tell your bosses to put down the hopium pipe and grow a back bone, and tell their SES overlords at the Puzzle palace to tell SecAf no buck no buck rogers. Kids need new MILITARY trainers and hours with their brain behind their ass at .7M+ and no automation, herbie drivers too. I was a CFII before I touched a single military airplane, let alone instructed in one; I can speak 61/141/135/121/one-WGAF. I was also in academia before the military; I know ballwash pseudointellectual fodder for paper degree issuance when I read it. Hell, I used to teach it! 😄 

To the degree which civ-only folks don't understand the historical rigor behind undegraduate USN/USAF military aviator accessions and initial traning, it is also true that many mil-only folks really don't understand the quality control morass that is 141 (forget 61). I won't rehash the dissertation on here, the BLUF is that abrogating our military pilot accessions to 141 is to admit defeat. Considering the US record as a combat operational loss leader for the past 50 years, I guess losing at pilot training is par for the course too. Empire in decay, happens to the best of 'em I guess.

Honestly, I'd be more on board if they just cut the shit and 1) admitted they can't effectively lobby Congress for more cowbell for the UPT enterprise, and 2) admitted they have to send it to the civilian prop schools just to pad the logbook with negative transfer hours of little import.

Heck, by that cockeyed COA's order of merit alone, again just cut the shit and go full up MPL (Euro standard, sim only) for your copilots (3/4 of pilot accessions for the USAF) and put their money where their mouth is. Padding the 141 with excess federal pork is the only thing this will accomplish anyways. Excess crew deaths down the line in grey jet initial/continuation training are on them though, not on us dinosaurs "getting in the way".

 

[Boomer6]

8 minutes ago, hindsight2020 said:

I was also in academia before the military

You don't say.. Here I was thinking you just like to crack open a thesaurus when you started typing a post.

[Clark Griswold]

1 hour ago, hindsight2020 said:

… to tell SecAf no buck no buck rogers. Kids need new MILITARY trainers and hours 

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/trump-nro-meink-air-force-secretary/

New SECAF was a Nav, call me naive but he was aircrew and I think if the right group of lawmakers like these guys 

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/fighter-pilots-congress-airpower-new-caucus 

could be convinced to charge at this situation, you could get somewhere.  Somewhere being new mil iron, better pre-UPT training and quality sims.

He went thru training, he had to make a grade and I think as he sat 5 feet behind pilots for several years, you could ask him honestly is doing this as cheap and as quickly as possible for people who will be flying 169 souls and/or 169 million dollar jets really a good idea?  Would you have wanted your Co’s to be trained this way or the old way with better jets and better sims?

Keep that COA real, don’t shit all over what has been done or tried recently and propose constructive solutions.  Propose in media and engage likely partners (UPT base CODELs, aerospace industry states, seek opinion maker backing buzz does make a difference)

2 cents:  

Civilian schools basics, keep that.  COTS mil trainers, VFR direct platform request to Congress for the PC-21 then have the Puzzle Palace run an expedited domestic production selection process.  Which ‘Merican aerospace company can produce 350+ quickly with the highest quality assurance?  Multi engine is the T-54, LIFT is the T-7, it’s already ordered, teething issues be damned.

Edited Sunday at 08:45 PM by Clark Griswold

[ViperMan]

All the "could work" discussion begs an obvious question: why weren't we doing it before?

Not to say that we can't do things better; we can and should. This is clearly driven by the times, however, and is yet another loop in the reactionary merry-go-round. I'm suspect for this, and this reason alone.

[hindsight2020]

3 minutes ago, Clark Griswold said:

He went thru training, he had to make a grade and I think as he sat 5 feet behind pilots for several years, you could ask him honestly is doing this as cheap and as quickly as possible for people who will be flying 169 souls and/or 169 million dollar jets really a good idea?  Would you have wanted your Co’s to be trained this way or the old way with better jets and better sims?

You'll never be able to make personal/moral appeals to these political appointees. Besides, Congressional pork is higher than even their pay grade.

That out of the way, let's address that "shitting on" stray bullet you threw in there. If you're talking about my criticisms, you can tone-police my delivery all you want. That's just "Tuesday" in my life/put it on my tab type of thing. The point is that the premise behind all that pick-me coding, hoop-jumping passed as "innovation", is that you can't lobby for the money for the proven solution in the first place.

Don't get it twisted, and let me bold the answer for the reading comprehension challenged, as I see the question of root cause keeps popping up. The ENTIRE COA is couched on the private knowledge that the enterprise has been so undercapitalized for so many decades, they can't meet production quotas. And that became an inconvenient boo boo when the airlines stopped sucking again for a fart and a half after 14 years of constipation. Period end of story. Rest of their pitch is as I said, sophist ballwash, I don't care what overpaid cRafT contractor, or civilian 121 job chasing, lawnmower-time builder that offends.

Again, for the johnny come lates in the back: This isn't about "efficiency". That's just a bullshit plausible deniable premise that keeps polyannas appeased, and which powerless Generals glob onto as a notch until they can get their revolving door NoVA civilian follow-on. What this is about, is Exodus 5 (vers 6-9, no shit). It's so obvious to the peanut gallery, even illiterate Bronze age goat herders managed to finger paint it on a book of effin' parables JFC. Pun very much intended. 😄 

So with all due respect as I sincerely enjoy your brainstorming sessions on here, spare me the ingénue "we just trying to train the kids here man" all-hands-on-deck pep rally. These are politicians (yes, even the uniformed ones) working from a position of dishonesty and career self-dealing; these are not honest-broker problem solvers. Go get mad at them for not having a spine. Don't cast me a malcontent just because I display umbrage about unnecessary O-2/3 deaths at the altar of quality control dilution and political expediency, while being told I'm part of the problem for demanding no more resources than what was afforded to me when I was in those now dead O-2's flying experience position.

[SurelySerious]

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/trump-nro-meink-air-force-secretary/

New SECAF was a Nav, call me naive but he was aircrew and I think if the right group of lawmakers like these guys 
https://www.airandspaceforces.com/fighter-pilots-congress-airpower-new-caucus 
could be convinced to charge at this situation, you could get somewhere.  Somewhere being new mil iron, better pre-UPT training and quality sims.
He went thru training, he had to make a grade and I think as he sat 5 feet behind pilots for several years, you could ask him honestly is doing this as cheap and as quickly as possible for people who will be flying 169 souls and/or 169 million dollar jets really a good idea?  Would you have wanted your Co’s to be trained this way or the old way with better jets and better sims?
Keep that COA real, don’t shit all over what has been done or tried recently and propose constructive solutions.  Propose in media and engage likely partners (UPT base CODELs, aerospace industry states, seek opinion maker backing buzz does make a difference)
2 cents:  
Civilian schools basics, keep that.  COTS mil trainers, VFR direct platform request to Congress for the PC-21 then have the Puzzle Palace run an expedited domestic production selection process.  Which ‘Merican aerospace company can produce 350+ quickly with the highest quality assurance?  Multi engine is the T-54, LIFT is the T-7, it’s already ordered, teething issues be damned.

Not worth asking a Nav, sitting five feet behind pilots doesn’t make a good opinion.

[Flev]

56 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

Not worth asking a Nav, sitting five feet behind pilots doesn’t make a good opinion.

Perhaps not, but Navs/CSO's are likely next in line for training dilution. Anyone hoping this is just a pilot problem should widen their FOV just a little bit.

First they came for the T-1's... Then they came for the sims... After that they came for IFT... Suddenly all that was left was shoveling coal in the part 141 fire.

[Clark Griswold]

You'll never be able to make personal/moral appeals to these political appointees. Besides, Congressional pork is higher than even their pay grade.
That out of the way, let's address that "shitting on" stray bullet you threw in there. If you're talking about my criticisms, you can tone-police my delivery all you want. That's just "Tuesday" in my life/put it on my tab type of thing. The point is that the premise behind all that pick-me coding, hoop-jumping passed as "innovation", is that you can't lobby for the money for the proven solution in the first place.
Don't get it twisted, and let me bold the answer for the reading comprehension challenged, as I see the question of root cause keeps popping up. The ENTIRE COA is couched on the private knowledge that the enterprise has been so undercapitalized for so many decades, they can't meet production quotas. And that became an inconvenient boo boo when the airlines stopped sucking again for a fart and a half after 14 years of constipation. Period end of story. Rest of their pitch is as I said, sophist ballwash, I don't care what overpaid cRafT contractor, or civilian 121 job chasing, lawnmower-time builder that offends.
Again, for the johnny come lates in the back: This isn't about "efficiency". That's just a bullshit plausible deniable premise that keeps polyannas appeased, and which powerless Generals glob onto as a notch until they can get their revolving door NoVA civilian follow-on. What this is about, is Exodus 5 (vers 6-9, no shit). It's so obvious to the peanut gallery, even illiterate Bronze age goat herders managed to finger paint it on a book of effin' parables JFC. Pun very much intended.  
So with all due respect as I sincerely enjoy your brainstorming sessions on here, spare me the ingénue "we just trying to train the kids here man" all-hands-on-deck pep rally. These are politicians (yes, even the uniformed ones) working from a position of dishonesty and career self-dealing; these are not honest-broker problem solvers. Go get mad at them for not having a spine. Don't cast me a malcontent just because I display umbrage about unnecessary O-2/3 deaths at the altar of quality control dilution and political expediency, while being told I'm part of the problem for demanding no more resources than what was afforded to me when I was in those now dead O-2's flying experience position.

Well, that shitting comment was not directed at you but a general statement to anyone who might take my points and run with them as honey will catch more flies, my apologies since taken that way.
Like a good thesis defense, if you’re not told version X is wrong or could be better bad ideas get through.  Fire mercilessly away.
I’m skeptical / wary of pols too but this is who has to be approached to solve this problem.  They may be careerists, they may be Mr. Smith, like most people they are some mixture of both, only trying can you find out.  The why can be explained to them and it being the right thing (morally) to do can be true at the same time, it is in this case.
I hear your point but the Borg will never admit to an institutional mistake like underfunding/disregarding/poorly managing the pilot training mission.  I think if there’s any hope in returning it to a higher priority position on the to do list, having an affirmative but non confrontational approach is what has to happen.  You’ve worked staff and as have I, like in Red October…

 
To actually get to resourcing it as big blue should, an approach from the customers (MAJCOMs, etc…) with other concerned parties and say something to the effect we need more training initially not less for these reasons with this data supporting it.  Fewer aircraft meaning we can tolerate even less attrition due to accidents, fewer flight hours in this or that MWS so we need them to be strong swimmers immediately, etc… make your arguments, just don’t shut them out.  Their support will be required once an avenue is created for them to take without losing face. Edited Sunday at 11:37 PM by Clark Griswold
Downgrade for hitting submit prior to FAF

[hindsight2020]

yabut  the capitalization malfeasance is the elephant in the room here, and should have been congressionally investigated decades ago. Who are we kidding, it's Congress the one fometing it in the first place. At any rate, you can't handwave that away just because one thinks you have to coddle these careerists' balls in order to get anywhere. This entire situation could have been solved decades ago with COTS solutions that don't impact national security.

But industry is a grift machine, and they get in the way every time. Our Country has turned (especially since the 2020 M2 theft, some could argue TARP in '08 was the first mask off moment) into merely a trans-national Economic Zone for arbitrage and exploitation; our Nationhood strikes me as specious these days if I'm being honest.

The T-7 dumpster fire is not the bug, it's the FEATURE. A cohort of people, civilians (veterans even) with very little skin in the game otherwise, are getting paid very well for that thing to fail upwards, is my point. Meanwhile the rest of the world laughs at our worn-out infrastructure. Attempting to distract with "psychology of learning" sophistry will not get us to where need to be.

You mention not dismissing COAs out of hand. Care to ask that of these uniformed politicians? They sure have a penchant for shooting down COAs left and right, even cost-neutral ones. The biggest one being retention as a stated goal. Nope, never that. Rather surrender to Putin than allow the chatel any discretion in how they keep their home life intact while doing what 99% of the civilian US population deems an occupational choice only fit for "suckers" or economic refugees/people without a better option.

1x addtl base worth of production. That's it. Could even make it a tenant wing of an existing installation (Moody) and still get there. But that requires COTS on the capital + homesteading/QoL/$-equivalent incentives on the personnel side. The T-7 is a poison pill to that COA, as are the whiny competing MAJCOMS that bitch about production and quality control, but won't pay their share of the bill either. I can already hear the shrieking by the FTUs over remediatory training if and when this brain dead idea of future regional pilots setting the military flying fundamentals is ever allowed out of the lab in Wuhan. And they'll try to blame PIT/UPT IPs for that too. *shrugs*

I prefer not meeting fiscal end-strength manning, over fraticide in the name of political expedience. Call me a bleeding heart. I'll close out my comments on this thread by adding that, as I round out my sanctuary zone into check of the month IDGAF land, that's really my only personal COA left: try to impart as much flying life hacks onto these kids before they get sent over with not enough hours and air sense as I was afforded. To each their own and all that shit, good luck to all. Cheers.

 

[Sua Sponte]

4 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

Not worth asking a Nav, sitting five feet behind pilots doesn’t make a good opinion.

Five feet? I think it’s a safe bet most of you have never been in a KC-135 cockpit.

[Boomer6]

19 minutes ago, hindsight2020 said:

as are the whiny competing MAJCOMS that bitch about production and quality control, but won't pay their share of the bill either. I can already hear the shrieking by the FTUs over remediatory training if and when this brain dead idea of future regional pilots setting the military flying fundamentals is ever allowed out of the lab in Wuhan. And they'll try to blame PIT/UPT IPs for that too. *shrugs*

Oh yes, because the FTUs haven't been doing more with less, to include less experienced IPs/studs, just like PIT/UPT. I guess whining about the can being kicked from UPT/IFF to the FTUs is somehow unwarranted.

UPT/IFF IPs aren't responsible for the retention/iron situation, but they're directly responsible for letting studs pass that shouldn't. Or, at the very least, not holding to the CTS. Those UPT IPs that don't hold the line, where do they get their training again..?

The system and it's leaders bear plenty of blame, but that doesn't give the lowly line IPs acting as the quality control experts the right to allow a subpar product and then claim absolution.

[SurelySerious]

Five feet? I think it’s a safe bet most of you have never been in a KC-135 cockpit.

Mentally most Navs are further behind than the back of the refueling envelope, so, really, we’re all being generous.

[brabus]

1 hour ago, Boomer6 said:

but that doesn't give the lowly line IPs acting as the quality control experts the right to allow a subpar product and then claim absolution

Valid, but to throw them a bone, how many line IPs are overruled by someone above them when it comes to grading accurately, shutdown when they provide candid opinions on a below average student, etc. Also how many line IPs are grossly inexperienced for the job they’re charged to do, thus through uncertainty, fear of leadership reprisal, or both, they grade inaccurately. It’s not an excuse for all the bullshit inflated grades out there, but the problem is more complex than simply “line IPs are pussies and not holding the line!” 

[raimius]

38 minutes ago, brabus said:

Valid, but to throw them a bone, how many line IPs are overruled by someone above them when it comes to grading accurately, shutdown when they provide candid opinions on a below average student, etc. Also how many line IPs are grossly inexperienced for the job they’re charged to do, thus through uncertainty, fear of leadership reprisal, or both, they grade inaccurately.

Many and many.

60-70% are FAIPs who barely get any planned CT, and see most of the Stans they hooked come back from the 88/89/CR process.

And yeah, grade inflation is certainly a thing...and even worse now that it's T-6 direct to FTU.  No more phase 3 to help train most new LTs.  

 

The only potential upside for quality with these ideas is that the Lts will have some more hours when they graduate.  Most are graduating now with ~120-130hrs, when my group had 200-220.  I'm not a better student than the kids now, but I got more training...

Edited yesterday at 04:47 AM by raimius

[Boomer6]

50 minutes ago, brabus said:

Valid, but to throw them a bone, how many line IPs are overruled by someone above them when it comes to grading accurately, shutdown when they provide candid opinions on a below average student, etc. Also how many line IPs are grossly inexperienced for the job they’re charged to do, thus through uncertainty, fear of leadership reprisal, or both, they grade inaccurately. It’s not an excuse for all the bullshit inflated grades out there, but the problem is more complex than simply “line IPs are pussies and not holding the line!” 

I agree 100% that pressure from on high is a factor.

However, I've seen FAIPs of all ppl refuse to fold to this pressure and uphold the standard. If an Lt hoping for a fighter has the intestinal fortitude to do the right thing then I have little sympathy for O3-5s worried about their next assignment. These are officers we're talking about, not jr enlisted, they need to act like it.

I agree UPT line IPs are younger/less experienced than ever. Which is why PIT has a large share of blame as well. PIT won't wash out IPs coming to their sq that have no business instructing young IPs, much less hold the line on UIPs they're sending to UPT. 

I have zero issue blaming leadership/congress/etc. for terrible priorities on retention and procurement. With that being said, how many times have I read dudes on here bitching about all these senior leaders that refuse to fall on their swords to make a point to leadership for the sake of their service, Wg, Sq, etc. Yet here we are making excuses for officers folding to pressure on grading standards. Hard to expect the Bobs to suddenly grow a backbone if it's never been required they have one in the first place.

Edited yesterday at 04:55 AM by Boomer6

[brabus]

30 minutes ago, Boomer6 said:

Yet here we are making excuses for officers folding to pressure on grading standards.

I’m not making excuses for anyone. Just highlighting there’s more to the problem than “well these guys are just little bitches not wanting to rock the boat/hurt their next assignment/piss Bob off.” That of course does describe some out there, but I don’t think that’s the overarching RC.

Edited yesterday at 05:24 AM by brabus

[Clark Griswold]

yabut  the capitalization malfeasance is the elephant in the room here, and should have been congressionally investigated decades ago. Who are we kidding, it's Congress the one fometing it in the first place. At any rate, you can't handwave that away just because one thinks you have to coddle these careerists' balls in order to get anywhere. This entire situation could have been solved decades ago with COTS solutions that don't impact national security.
But industry is a grift machine, and they get in the way every time. Our Country has turned (especially since the 2020 M2 theft, some could argue TARP in '08 was the first mask off moment) into merely a trans-national Economic Zone for arbitrage and exploitation; our Nationhood strikes me as specious these days if I'm being honest.
The T-7 dumpster fire is not the bug, it's the FEATURE. A cohort of people, civilians (veterans even) with very little skin in the game otherwise, are getting paid very well for that thing to fail upwards, is my point. Meanwhile the rest of the world laughs at our worn-out infrastructure. Attempting to distract with "psychology of learning" sophistry will not get us to where need to be.
You mention not dismissing COAs out of hand. Care to ask that of these uniformed politicians? They sure have a penchant for shooting down COAs left and right, even cost-neutral ones. The biggest one being retention as a stated goal. Nope, never that. Rather surrender to Putin than allow the chatel any discretion in how they keep their home life intact while doing what 99% of the civilian US population deems an occupational choice only fit for "suckers" or economic refugees/people without a better option.
1x addtl base worth of production. That's it. Could even make it a tenant wing of an existing installation (Moody) and still get there. But that requires COTS on the capital + homesteading/QoL/$-equivalent incentives on the personnel side. The T-7 is a poison pill to that COA, as are the whiny competing MAJCOMS that bitch about production and quality control, but won't pay their share of the bill either. I can already hear the shrieking by the FTUs over remediatory training if and when this brain dead idea of future regional pilots setting the military flying fundamentals is ever allowed out of the lab in Wuhan. And they'll try to blame PIT/UPT IPs for that too. *shrugs*
I prefer not meeting fiscal end-strength manning, over fraticide in the name of political expedience. Call me a bleeding heart. I'll close out my comments on this thread by adding that, as I round out my sanctuary zone into check of the month IDGAF land, that's really my only personal COA left: try to impart as much flying life hacks onto these kids before they get sent over with not enough hours and air sense as I was afforded. To each their own and all that shit, good luck to all. Cheers.
 

Very good we’ve each made our points
Have heart, this is just a period of time like the mid to late 70s in America, we’re primed for a restart


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HuggyU2]

21 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

oh and the T-7 is still a dumpster fire.

Indeed. 
It doesn't even have an internal ladder. And isn't stressed to be able to hang a ladder on the side, a la T-38. Nice job, Boeing. 
 

The T-50 was the obvious choice. But no... couldn't award another contract to Lockheed. 

[SurelySerious]

The T-50 was the obvious choice. But no... couldn't award another contract to Lockheed. 

An airplane already flying and in production…but instead we got a paper airplane.

[brabus]

I hope Hegseth puts some real effort into restructuring our acquisitions process. That could pay huge dividends for decades to come if done right. 

[Clark Griswold]

An airplane already flying and in production…but instead we got a paper airplane.

But how are supposed to get 5 years behind schedule, 6.9 billion over budget and not meeting all specs?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[brabus]

Indeed. The primes, at a min, can go fuck themselves. Absolute garbage C-suites filled with greed and zero fucks given for the country that has enabled them to grow to what they are today. Only people worse are the inept gov officials who don’t enable, or demand, real accountability and consequences for failures. 

Currently reading a book called Freedom’s Forge, focused on pre-WW2 industry. The contrast of industry then to industry now is sickening and embarrassing. Industry used to give a shit about our country and people. Maybe Elon can lead a swing back that way to some extent.

[Blue]

15 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

yabut  the capitalization malfeasance is the elephant in the room here, and should have been congressionally investigated decades ago. Who are we kidding, it's Congress the one fometing it in the first place. At any rate, you can't handwave that away just because one thinks you have to coddle these careerists' balls in order to get anywhere. This entire situation could have been solved decades ago with COTS solutions that don't impact national security.

But industry is a grift machine, and they get in the way every time. Our Country has turned (especially since the 2020 M2 theft, some could argue TARP in '08 was the first mask off moment) into merely a trans-national Economic Zone for arbitrage and exploitation; our Nationhood strikes me as specious these days if I'm being honest.

The T-7 dumpster fire is not the bug, it's the FEATURE. A cohort of people, civilians (veterans even) with very little skin in the game otherwise, are getting paid very well for that thing to fail upwards, is my point. Meanwhile the rest of the world laughs at our worn-out infrastructure. Attempting to distract with "psychology of learning" sophistry will not get us to where need to be.

Yup, this.

I've found that, when looking at a potential solution to an existing problem, ask yourself: "Does this make money for the big defense contractors."

If you can answer "yes," then that solution will probably be implemented.

If the answer is "no," then you're probably not going to see things happen.

New trainers just aren't an attractive proposition for the big defense primes.  Sure, they're some $$ when you're building them.  But there just isn't enough money in upgrades and support throughout the life of the aircraft like there is with a new weapons system (F-35, B-21, etc).  So the big primes don't really care.  Which is partly why you see so many trainer aircraft leveraging work from foreign partners (Pilatus for the T-6, Saab for the T-7, etc).

To a certain extent, it's always been this way (or at least the entire post-WWII era we live in).  My main heartburn is that, up through the 80s or so, there was still enough around the margins that everyone still got taken care of.  Now, those margins are so eroded, you end up in our current situation.  There is always money to throw at Lockheed for more F-35's, but fuck you if you want more flying hours for training, or anything else that doesn't somehow lead back to the big primes.

Related, the relentless pursuit of quarterly earnings, DEI, and everything else besides, you know, actually designing and building aircraft has led to the current hollowing-out of the defense industry.  I've watched it first hand when working development programs.  If you're ahead of the schedule, behind the schedule, succeeding or failing, no one cares.  Just as long as you got all the money spent.  Any why should they care?  If things go haywire, Uncle Sam will always just write another check.

It's been equal parts alarming and saddening to watch this develop over the past 20+ years.  And it doesn't appear to be getting any better.