Initial Pilot Training and Future Pilot Training

[Flev]

1 hour ago, Clark Griswold said:

Pot stirring 

Concur with Gonky’s opinion that it is not a solution to the problems facing pilot training but agree with both that pre-UPT flying training is worthwhile if executed well.  Big point brought up I think was interesting was the culture of military flight training, stress-high standards-fast pace, that would be missing if most is contracted away.

As a student being on that end of the whip was no fun but more than a few years later the value is more apparent.  

I agree that pre-UPT flight training can be beneficial as well. I worry that the time-constraints placed on students going through IPT will lead to part 141 instructors/check airmen pencil-whipping some things rather than emphasizing the standards. 6 months (?) to get PPL, IR, and Multi is doable but highly weather and plane dependent.

[Clark Griswold]

I agree that pre-UPT flight training can be beneficial as well. I worry that the time-constraints placed on students going through IPT will lead to part 141 instructors/check airmen pencil-whipping some things rather than emphasizing the standards. 6 months (?) to get PPL, IR, and Multi is doable but highly weather and plane dependent.

Yup, seems tight but flying is better than not
If king for a day I’d plan on 18 months start to finish
6 months to get PPL w Instruments, AMEL
8 month PC-21 program, some of IFF (BSA) and some of the mission fam phase of T-1 (AR) would be incorporated
4 month advanced trainer, T-54 or T-7


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[contraildash]

I am thoroughly confused as to what ‘problem’ 19th thinks it is solving with Future UPT (it’s all FUPT up…).

They are sending students TDY to these locations, and they are paying the schools. That isn’t cheap.

It will take longer to get through the entirety of the program from start to earning wings. I suspect that 19th will only count the T-6 to wings portion and declare ‘look we produce pilots so much faster!’

I highly doubt the product will be better by any means. I’d rather train up someone zero to hero entirely within the UPT structure….it has worked well for decades.

So we are getting a worse product, that takes longer and is more expensive. Sounds smart.

Once 19th started tinkering around with UPT, it induced all the issues. They haven’t let a year go by with any of the syllabi recently before introducing a different one. It has just been constant flail in a never ending state of change.

If we want to incorporate civil training, I’d say do it after T-6s. Send the T-38 studs off to do their thing. Send the rest to (insert sim company) and get a king air rating or something similar. I’ve been through both Flightsafety and CAE simulator training for military aircraft, it was outstanding training and would be a good top-off for studs heading to heavies.

….or just buy some T-54s….

/semiannual rant off


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[DirkDiggler]

23 minutes ago, contraildash said:

I am thoroughly confused as to what ‘problem’ 19th thinks it is solving with Future UPT (it’s all FUPT up…).

They are sending students TDY to these locations, and they are paying the schools. That isn’t cheap.

It will take longer to get through the entirety of the program from start to earning wings. I suspect that 19th will only count the T-6 to wings portion and declare ‘look we produce pilots so much faster!’

I highly doubt the product will be better by any means. I’d rather train up someone zero to hero entirely within the UPT structure….it has worked well for decades.

So we are getting a worse product, that takes longer and is more expensive. Sounds smart.

Once 19th started tinkering around with UPT, it induced all the issues. They haven’t let a year go by with any of the syllabi recently before introducing a different one. It has just been constant flail in a never ending state of change.

If we want to incorporate civil training, I’d say do it after T-6s. Send the T-38 studs off to do their thing. Send the rest to (insert sim company) and get a king air rating or something similar. I’ve been through both Flightsafety and CAE simulator training for military aircraft, it was outstanding training and would be a good top-off for studs heading to heavies.

….or just buy some T-54s….

/semiannual rant off


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

The problem right now (and the one AETC 5/8 is trying to work around) is that the T-6 portion of UPT is fucked/is the bottleneck right now.  The T-6 fleet is in bad shape, it's getting worse, and there's no easy or expeditious way to fix it.  The T-38 is well past any reasonable service life, and the T-7 is obviously delayed.  This IPT concept is the latest attempt to get to the 1500 pilots/year production goal that the AF can never achieve.  

  Believe it or not but the money issue for IPT was actually one of the smaller issues getting the program started.

[LookieRookie]

13 minutes ago, DirkDiggler said:

The problem right now (and the one AETC 5/8 is trying to work around) is that the T-6 portion of UPT is fucked/is the bottleneck right now.  The T-6 fleet is in bad shape, it's getting worse, and there's no easy or expeditious way to fix it.  The T-38 is well past any reasonable service life, and the T-7 is obviously delayed.  This IPT concept is the latest attempt to get to the 1500 pilots/year production goal that the AF can never achieve.  

  Believe it or not but the money issue for IPT was actually one of the smaller issues getting the program started.

Shack.

 

The T-6 fleet neglect has destroyed it and DMSMS is leaving jets permanently grounded in FY26.

 

IPT/FUPT is an HQ AETC initiative not 19th. The bobs finally are reorging it into a normal MAJCOM after Kwast fucked it and forced Shredder Sears from the A3 position since he wouldn’t delegate the A3 authority but Chuck Bolton would.

[SurelySerious]

Shack.
 
The T-6 fleet neglect has destroyed it and DMSMS is leaving jets permanently grounded in FY26.
 
IPT/FUPT is an HQ AETC initiative not 19th. The bobs finally are reorging it into a normal MAJCOM after Kwast ed it and forced Shredder Sears from the A3 position since he wouldn’t delegate the A3 authority but Chuck Bolton would.

Brutal. We couldn’t even maintain these for 20 years?

[LookieRookie]

Just now, SurelySerious said:

Brutal. We couldn’t even maintain these for 20 years?

Nope, it’s pilot training, it’s not sexy enough

[contraildash]

Nope, it’s pilot training, it’s not sexy enough

AETC: focus on GPS things, prepare for advanced avionics.

Also AETC: we are decertifying your GPS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[DirkDiggler]

15 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

Brutal. We couldn’t even maintain these for 20 years?

The AF, in their infinite wisdom, split the contract to maintain the T-6 in two, one for actual MX on the jets and one for the parts sustainment/sourcing.  Once the health of the fleet started to decline, it didn't take long for the two companies involved to point the finger at each other when they couldn't make their contract metrics.  As LookieRookie mentioned above, the fleet has a pretty serious DMS problem (which is kinda wild given that the aircraft themselves just aren't that old) that is having a huge impact on tail availability.  My buddy at 5/8 told me all the UPT bases are suffering, but CBM is in the wort shape.  They have about 90 something T-6s and on any given day only a third are flyable.

[SurelySerious]

Nope, it’s pilot training, it’s not sexy enough

AETC: focus on GPS things, prepare for advanced avionics.

Also AETC: we are decertifying your GPS.




That was the last T-6 debacle I was aware of, equally confusing we couldn’t get it together enough to update the GPS when they stopped supporting updates to the KLN-69. It

[LookieRookie]

12 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

 

AETC: focus on GPS things, prepare for advanced avionics.

Also AETC: we are decertifying your GPS.




That was the last T-6 debacle I was aware of, equally confusing we couldn’t get it together enough to update the GPS when they stopped supporting updates to the KLN-69. It

 

Well before we did a dumbass ADS-B solution, the whole jet was supposed to be amped back in the mid teens. That would have fixed the whole problem.

Also Beechcraft/Textron pitched a mod to convert all the tails to a B/C standard but the Air Force said nah fam, we got this.

[raimius]

Hueys have a better GPS than the T-6, and that GPS went out of production in 2009!

[brabus]

What’s the primary reason for such shitty MX production rates on the T-6? It’s crazy these things had brand new car smell when I went through (still had T-37s also) and I haven’t even retired yet and the whole fleet is on its ass in a major way. Amazing how well we can find ways to massively fuck up everything. 

[Biff_T]

2 hours ago, brabus said:

Amazing how well we can find ways to massively fuck up everything. 

I'd like to think I helped warp a few doing barrel rolls (dives for me) during UPT.   

[Clark Griswold]

Questions for tailwheel pilots:

- How many hours did you need to get your endorsement and did it make you or really teach better stick and rudder skills?

Asking as it was mentioned earlier in this thread that a tail dragger phase might be a good idea IF a  different approach to UPT were to be implemented, this phase purposely to teach / evaluate airmanship skills and I would envision it after a PPL & INSTM phase but before a T-6 or ideally PC-21 course.

[O Face]

15 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Questions for tailwheel pilots:

- How many hours did you need to get your endorsement and did it make you or really teach better stick and rudder skills?

Asking as it was mentioned earlier in this thread that a tail dragger phase might be a good idea IF a  different approach to UPT were to be implemented, this phase purposely to teach / evaluate airmanship skills and I would envision it after a PPL & INSTM phase but before a T-6 or ideally PC-21 course.

Emphasis on the “Rudder” of the stick and rudder skills. It does teach you a lot.  I got my endorsement after a few hrs, but it took some time to feel comfortable with a cross wind landing. Hell, at this point I’d hope the AF sends these poor kids to hot air balloon school just to get them some more hours in the air. 

Edited February 6 by O Face
.

[Clark Griswold]

15 minutes ago, O Face said:

Emphasis on the “Rudder” of the stick and rudder skills. It does teach you a lot.  I got my endorsement after a few hrs, but took it took some time to feel comfortable with a cross wind landing. Hell, at this point I’d hope the AF sends these poor kids to hot air balloon school just to get them some more hours in the air. 

That’s part of my musings too, flight time vs screen time.  

Civ trainers with contract and mil instructors to get a good foundation, around 120 hours, then probably around 100 hours in a mil trainer (T-6 or PC-21) then track select to fighter, heavy or helos advanced trainer.

My objective is better trained pilots not least cost to train pilots, that’s gonna cost some coin but… if we get approval to repurpose resources, I think it could be done without upsetting the POM.

To any lurkers on the forum that are serving and involved in this enterprise, I stress that, it’s about better pilots produced not least cost to train pilots produced.

Advanced training technology is fine but it is supplementary not a replacement for flight time.

If there is CODEL staffer or AF member in the intern program, just have your boss offer an amendment to a bill directing that no military flight training program may graduate a pilot with fewer actual flight hours than the FAA requires for a Commercial Instrument Pilot.
 

[brabus]

3 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Questions for tailwheel pilots:

- How many hours did you need to get your endorsement and did it make you or really teach better stick and rudder skills?

Asking as it was mentioned earlier in this thread that a tail dragger phase might be a good idea IF a  different approach to UPT were to be implemented, this phase purposely to teach / evaluate airmanship skills and I would envision it after a PPL & INSTM phase but before a T-6 or ideally PC-21 course.

I think TW is great training and does make a better stick & rudder pilot overall (because laziness and below average skills are punished more immediately and apparently). The better stick & rudder skills gained tend to transfer to flying as well, even though TW only technically affects ground handling and takeoff/landing. Also flying GA aerobatics helps improve aircraft handling skills, even transferable to jets. If we’re going to go for pre-UPT training, a fleet of citabrias could do well. 

Edited February 6 by brabus

[Swizzle]

Master Training Strategery: Make the training realistic to MDS/MWS', give them the most outdated trainer, divergently provide lots of flight hours (in VR/AR) but somehow even more useless non-flight CBTs or record management monitor duties, offer them promotion hope only via Exec/aide de camp/CAG/social aide positions before winging and tell them to suck it up and don't f*** it up after winging, maybe pro-solo if you're nice. Then blame aircrew when they run afoul, next release a BtB SRF/FCIF (because they might have forgot what they didn't learn by staying at the Holiday Inn Express run by contract on-base) and modify dress and appearance regs change as cherry on top; Ensure the video explanantion is mandatory to watch. Lastly, amend the retention/take rate tracker to make the slides green by changing the denominator, to variable a demoninator of course. Oh, all the while 19th is making short-lived experiments/SGTOs to buy time until the staff PCS' and/or seperates (chaff). But overall you must kill all aircrew traditions, rationale, and culture at any cost; best done by making aircrew do all ADCON functions themselves for themselves to keep them busy with other than aircrew duties. Wait until next recession to hire unsuspecting FNGs.

[Clark Griswold]

One more thing in this discussion on pilot training, this may seem vain but really it’s not, it’s what the AF should feel about it’s on going thrash is shame.
Without a rigorous well funded and kinda difficult / challenging training program to become an AF pilot we lose prestige. Sounds vain but not really.
Would USAFA, USMA or the USNA command respect if they were easy universities to pass or poorly funded and obviously not prioritized in funding and leadership support to effectively OT&E?
At some point, the highest leadership of the AF (civ and mil) should see this and just cut this Gordian knot, ie we will buy this aircraft / establish this program
Just my opinion worth what you paid for it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Springer]

9 hours ago, brabus said:

I think TW is great training and does make a better stick & rudder pilot overall (because laziness and below average skills are punished more immediately and apparently). The better stick & rudder skills gained tend to transfer to flying as well, even though TW only technically affects ground handling and takeoff/landing. Also flying GA aerobatics helps improve aircraft handling skills, even transferable to jets. If we’re going to go for pre-UPT training, a fleet of citabrias could do well. 

Could not agree more.  Had two 1hr lessons in a Citabria and was signed off.  No wind in So. AZ.  Learned more about x-wind landings and basic flying skills when I flew for a commuter for a year (BE-99/SD-330) and 30 yr ownership of RV-4/RV-8 than I did in the AF.  Phantom was the easiest plane to land of any I flew.

[brabus]

Literal flying in the civ world can be a lot more challenging than mil flying. Employing mil aircraft tactically is where the challenge eclipses civ aviation.

[NoFlyZone]

I guess its kinda already been brought up but will studs be formally competing during IPT? If so how will the AF be able to quality control the grading? Seems like regardless the UPT T-6 syllabus will become even more important to assess studs even though its being condensed...

[jice]

21 hours ago, NoFlyZone said:

I guess it’s kinda already been brought up but will studs be formally competing during IPT? If so how will the AF be able to quality control the grading? Seems like regardless the UPT T-6 syllabus will become even more important to assess studs even though its being condensed...

Luck and timing. Competition and sorting (beyond a basic set of standards) is a nice to have. 
 

If maximizing quality were the dominant consideration, we would want to maximize assessment in our programs. It isn’t. 

Quantity is the dominant factor, which means production will be designed so that as long as the person meets the minimum standards for a higher-skill-required job they are able to end up in a higher-skill-required job. The cost is you’ll have lower quality overall because the system isn’t optimized to sort. 
 

Right now, we have a system designed in a time when capacity (2x the production bases in a massive drawdown) wasn’t an issue, and sorting correctly was paramount (massive drawdown ongoing). It’s built backwards for the needs today. This leads to having to leverage the [actual] non-dominant factor (quality) to address the [actual] dominant factor (quantity). 

[O Face]

On 2/6/2025 at 3:49 AM, Clark Griswold said:

One more thing in this discussion on pilot training, this may seem vain but really it’s not, it’s what the AF should feel about it’s on going thrash is shame.
Without a rigorous well funded and kinda difficult / challenging training program to become an AF pilot we lose prestige. Sounds vain but not really.
Would USAFA, USMA or the USNA command respect if they were easy universities to pass or poorly funded and obviously not prioritized in funding and leadership support to effectively OT&E?
At some point, the highest leadership of the AF (civ and mil) should see this and just cut this Gordian knot, ie we will buy this aircraft / establish this program
Just my opinion worth what you paid for it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not vain at all and a valid concern. Dude shows up for his first airline interview and tries using the military hr conversion factor and the airline is like “wait, you went to Embry Riddle just like that civilian guy over there. We only give mil credit to Navy and Army trained guys now.”