Initial Pilot Training and Future Pilot Training

[Flev]

1 hour ago, Clark Griswold said:

Pot stirring 

Concur with Gonky’s opinion that it is not a solution to the problems facing pilot training but agree with both that pre-UPT flying training is worthwhile if executed well.  Big point brought up I think was interesting was the culture of military flight training, stress-high standards-fast pace, that would be missing if most is contracted away.

As a student being on that end of the whip was no fun but more than a few years later the value is more apparent.  

I agree that pre-UPT flight training can be beneficial as well. I worry that the time-constraints placed on students going through IPT will lead to part 141 instructors/check airmen pencil-whipping some things rather than emphasizing the standards. 6 months (?) to get PPL, IR, and Multi is doable but highly weather and plane dependent.

[Clark Griswold]

I agree that pre-UPT flight training can be beneficial as well. I worry that the time-constraints placed on students going through IPT will lead to part 141 instructors/check airmen pencil-whipping some things rather than emphasizing the standards. 6 months (?) to get PPL, IR, and Multi is doable but highly weather and plane dependent.

Yup, seems tight but flying is better than not
If king for a day I’d plan on 18 months start to finish
6 months to get PPL w Instruments, AMEL
8 month PC-21 program, some of IFF (BSA) and some of the mission fam phase of T-1 (AR) would be incorporated
4 month advanced trainer, T-54 or T-7


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[contraildash]

I am thoroughly confused as to what ‘problem’ 19th thinks it is solving with Future UPT (it’s all FUPT up…).

They are sending students TDY to these locations, and they are paying the schools. That isn’t cheap.

It will take longer to get through the entirety of the program from start to earning wings. I suspect that 19th will only count the T-6 to wings portion and declare ‘look we produce pilots so much faster!’

I highly doubt the product will be better by any means. I’d rather train up someone zero to hero entirely within the UPT structure….it has worked well for decades.

So we are getting a worse product, that takes longer and is more expensive. Sounds smart.

Once 19th started tinkering around with UPT, it induced all the issues. They haven’t let a year go by with any of the syllabi recently before introducing a different one. It has just been constant flail in a never ending state of change.

If we want to incorporate civil training, I’d say do it after T-6s. Send the T-38 studs off to do their thing. Send the rest to (insert sim company) and get a king air rating or something similar. I’ve been through both Flightsafety and CAE simulator training for military aircraft, it was outstanding training and would be a good top-off for studs heading to heavies.

….or just buy some T-54s….

/semiannual rant off


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[DirkDiggler]

23 minutes ago, contraildash said:

I am thoroughly confused as to what ‘problem’ 19th thinks it is solving with Future UPT (it’s all FUPT up…).

They are sending students TDY to these locations, and they are paying the schools. That isn’t cheap.

It will take longer to get through the entirety of the program from start to earning wings. I suspect that 19th will only count the T-6 to wings portion and declare ‘look we produce pilots so much faster!’

I highly doubt the product will be better by any means. I’d rather train up someone zero to hero entirely within the UPT structure….it has worked well for decades.

So we are getting a worse product, that takes longer and is more expensive. Sounds smart.

Once 19th started tinkering around with UPT, it induced all the issues. They haven’t let a year go by with any of the syllabi recently before introducing a different one. It has just been constant flail in a never ending state of change.

If we want to incorporate civil training, I’d say do it after T-6s. Send the T-38 studs off to do their thing. Send the rest to (insert sim company) and get a king air rating or something similar. I’ve been through both Flightsafety and CAE simulator training for military aircraft, it was outstanding training and would be a good top-off for studs heading to heavies.

….or just buy some T-54s….

/semiannual rant off


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The problem right now (and the one AETC 5/8 is trying to work around) is that the T-6 portion of UPT is fucked/is the bottleneck right now.  The T-6 fleet is in bad shape, it's getting worse, and there's no easy or expeditious way to fix it.  The T-38 is well past any reasonable service life, and the T-7 is obviously delayed.  This IPT concept is the latest attempt to get to the 1500 pilots/year production goal that the AF can never achieve.  

  Believe it or not but the money issue for IPT was actually one of the smaller issues getting the program started.

[LookieRookie]

13 minutes ago, DirkDiggler said:

The problem right now (and the one AETC 5/8 is trying to work around) is that the T-6 portion of UPT is fucked/is the bottleneck right now.  The T-6 fleet is in bad shape, it's getting worse, and there's no easy or expeditious way to fix it.  The T-38 is well past any reasonable service life, and the T-7 is obviously delayed.  This IPT concept is the latest attempt to get to the 1500 pilots/year production goal that the AF can never achieve.  

  Believe it or not but the money issue for IPT was actually one of the smaller issues getting the program started.

Shack.

 

The T-6 fleet neglect has destroyed it and DMSMS is leaving jets permanently grounded in FY26.

 

IPT/FUPT is an HQ AETC initiative not 19th. The bobs finally are reorging it into a normal MAJCOM after Kwast fucked it and forced Shredder Sears from the A3 position since he wouldn’t delegate the A3 authority but Chuck Bolton would.

[SurelySerious]

Shack.
 
The T-6 fleet neglect has destroyed it and DMSMS is leaving jets permanently grounded in FY26.
 
IPT/FUPT is an HQ AETC initiative not 19th. The bobs finally are reorging it into a normal MAJCOM after Kwast ed it and forced Shredder Sears from the A3 position since he wouldn’t delegate the A3 authority but Chuck Bolton would.

Brutal. We couldn’t even maintain these for 20 years?

[LookieRookie]

Just now, SurelySerious said:

Brutal. We couldn’t even maintain these for 20 years?

Nope, it’s pilot training, it’s not sexy enough

[contraildash]

Nope, it’s pilot training, it’s not sexy enough

AETC: focus on GPS things, prepare for advanced avionics.

Also AETC: we are decertifying your GPS.


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[DirkDiggler]

15 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

Brutal. We couldn’t even maintain these for 20 years?

The AF, in their infinite wisdom, split the contract to maintain the T-6 in two, one for actual MX on the jets and one for the parts sustainment/sourcing.  Once the health of the fleet started to decline, it didn't take long for the two companies involved to point the finger at each other when they couldn't make their contract metrics.  As LookieRookie mentioned above, the fleet has a pretty serious DMS problem (which is kinda wild given that the aircraft themselves just aren't that old) that is having a huge impact on tail availability.  My buddy at 5/8 told me all the UPT bases are suffering, but CBM is in the wort shape.  They have about 90 something T-6s and on any given day only a third are flyable.

[SurelySerious]

Nope, it’s pilot training, it’s not sexy enough

AETC: focus on GPS things, prepare for advanced avionics.

Also AETC: we are decertifying your GPS.




That was the last T-6 debacle I was aware of, equally confusing we couldn’t get it together enough to update the GPS when they stopped supporting updates to the KLN-69. It

[LookieRookie]

12 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

 

AETC: focus on GPS things, prepare for advanced avionics.

Also AETC: we are decertifying your GPS.




That was the last T-6 debacle I was aware of, equally confusing we couldn’t get it together enough to update the GPS when they stopped supporting updates to the KLN-69. It

 

Well before we did a dumbass ADS-B solution, the whole jet was supposed to be amped back in the mid teens. That would have fixed the whole problem.

Also Beechcraft/Textron pitched a mod to convert all the tails to a B/C standard but the Air Force said nah fam, we got this.

[raimius]

Hueys have a better GPS than the T-6, and that GPS went out of production in 2009!

[brabus]

What’s the primary reason for such shitty MX production rates on the T-6? It’s crazy these things had brand new car smell when I went through (still had T-37s also) and I haven’t even retired yet and the whole fleet is on its ass in a major way. Amazing how well we can find ways to massively fuck up everything. 

[Biff_T]

2 hours ago, brabus said:

Amazing how well we can find ways to massively fuck up everything. 

I'd like to think I helped warp a few doing barrel rolls (dives for me) during UPT.